Feedback: Shadowdancer

[Scraap]

If you have to make it a clickie, then why not make it *add* both values to Attack and Damage? The modified average bonuses would come out to around a really, really angry barbarian. (ex. +15 [40 STR] +10 [30 DEX] = +25 [Approximating a 60 STR]) This way there is no favoring of STR or DEX builds.

Like it with one corollary: If the intent is to buff an off-stat, treat it like rage, with the dex mod being the time determinant, just as con is for a barb. That'd mean a STR build would get the effect for less time, but doesn't loose as much burst to burst. (Presumes they keep the dex devaluation as present when it comes to physical damage. If it actually will become a meaningful difference between defense and offense, by all means, stack em for the same length of time.)

[Havok.cry]

My suggestion: make shadow jump into a player version of a bearded devil's teleport to target. You come out of there shadow and stab them in the back.

[noinfo]

I am not sure why the ability cannot still remain passive and have an active clickie component as well. Its all well and good to say that it will be taken care of in the enhancement pass but I don't see any reason why it can't remain an ED ability regardless. People can always respec out of the enhancement part if they achieve the ED version anyway. 60 seconds really is not worth the effort. Remember that str is so easy to buff this is hardly making anyone OP.

Also if they are worried about respecing weapon finesse perhaps it just needs to go and for finessable weapons just use the highest of the dex/str anyway and the way things are going everyone is going to have to respec anyway. Far better than turning this abilitity into another less than worthwhile clickie.

[QuantumFX]

My suggestion: make shadow jump into a player version of a bearded devil's teleport to target. You come out of there shadow and stab them in the back.

They tried something like that with Abundant Step. Apparently, it lead to many stuck characters.

[Jaid314]

i'd rather see something that boosts all DCs based on rogue levels, rather than only assassinate. a mechanic that decides (for whatever reason) to pick up the smite construct things should also benefit, for example (and if you make poisons based on rogue levels for DC in the future, it could help with them as well)

i also favor the proposal to add dodge/mobility/spring attack to rogue feats. technically, we should get access to *all* feats with the rogue feats, but adding at least *some* feats to the list so that i don't grab two skill mastery feats just because i like all the other options even less than a like skill mastery would be something...

[whomhead]

Instead we propose creating some new active abilities that grant temporary buffs: both Fatesinger and Shadowdancer will now have an active ability (most likely tier 4) that gives full base attack bonus and allows you to use Charisma (Fatesinger) or Dexterity (for Shadowdancer) to damage if they are higher than your strength. They'll have a medium duration, probably around 45 to 60 seconds, and will cost a Bard Song or a Shadow Charge respectively.

The game needs fewer things like divine might, not more. If it has to be 60 seconds, then please please please don't give it a super long casting animation!

[Stanley_Nicholas]

I'm aware a similar discussion has been going on with certain Fatesinger abilities tied to Charisma. After some discussion on our side we've decided that passive abilities in Epic Destinies that change which stat you use for to-hit and damage aren't the best way to handle this. Instead we propose creating some new active abilities that grant temporary buffs: both Fatesinger and Shadowdancer will now have an active ability (most likely tier 4) that gives full base attack bonus and allows you to use Charisma (Fatesinger) or Dexterity (for Shadowdancer) to damage if they are higher than your strength. They'll have a medium duration, probably around 45 to 60 seconds, and will cost a Bard Song or a Shadow Charge respectively.

It could potentially use the stat for to-hit as well, although there's some potential for devaluing the Weapon Finesse feat again in the case of the Shadowdancer version. I'm not sure about a defense bonus, since that's somewhat outside what we're trying to address (namely weapon-based DPS using stats besides Strength).

We could possibly go with a duration more equivalent to Divine Power; we're still working out the details.

Wow. I just lost all the excitement I had for Shadowdancer, and I was really excited. If dex mod used for to-hit or damage just becomes a timed clicky, this destiny is pointless for me. If I decide to build a dex based character to take advantage of this, I want to be able to use dex as my weapon stat all the time, and not have yet another blasted clicky timer to keep track of. It needs to be a full-time passive ability.

If the worry is that it negates weapon finesse, then adjust it so it plays well with the feat. If you don't have weapon finesse, have it grant you the ability to use dex for your to-hit. If you do have weapon finesse, have it instead grant the ability to use dex for your damage. There you go, weapon finesse is now useful and the destiny goes back to being exciting for anyone playing or considering a dex build.

[Jaid314]

or just have the destiny offer dex to damage only (but not dex to hit).

dex to damage is nice, but the build can function without it, ultimately. dex to hit is what needs to be available from level 1. dex to damage coming at level 24 (or 23, or whenever) is fine.

[sephiroth1084]

i'd rather see something that boosts all DCs based on rogue levels, rather than only assassinate. a mechanic that decides (for whatever reason) to pick up the smite construct things should also benefit, for example (and if you make poisons based on rogue levels for DC in the future, it could help with them as well)

I really wish all of the destinies handled this stuff better. I think what I'd really like to see is for each destiny to get assigned to count as a few classes for the purposes of increasing effects that are dependent on level. The problem is that then you have some classes being pulled to particular destinies too strongly (assuming these abilities would be auto-grants).

Oh! How about this? Each destiny gets tied to a particular class (or classes; maybe all classes within its "sphere"), and every ability comes with a "+1 level to <class>" attached to it, that doesn't stack with the same bonus from within that tier. For example, Shadowdancer's tier I abilities are Stealthy, Shadow Lance, Acrobatic, Technician and Dex/Int. All of those would have "+1 rogue level (and maybe +1 ranger, artificer and/or monk level)." You could take as many as those abilities as you want, either while leveling in Shadowdancer, or twisting abilities, but you would only get a +1 bonus. Each tier would have the same, but would stack with the bonus gained from other tiers, so if you level in Shadowdancer and take at least one ability from each tier, you would end up being counted as having 5 more rogue levels for the purpose of determining your rogue class based DCs. If you level in a different epic destiny, but twist 3 Shadowdancer abilities from 3 different tiers, you would have +3 to your rogue level.

Thoughts?

i also favor the proposal to add dodge/mobility/spring attack to rogue feats. technically, we should get access to *all* feats with the rogue feats, but adding at least *some* feats to the list so that i don't grab two skill mastery feats just because i like all the other options even less than a like skill mastery would be something...

I like this idea. I would also add Skill Focus to this list.

or just have the destiny offer dex to damage only (but not dex to hit).

dex to damage is nice, but the build can function without it, ultimately. dex to hit is what needs to be available from level 1. dex to damage coming at level 24 (or 23, or whenever) is fine.

That's not a bad idea.

Another solution might be to just leave the Dex to-hit and Dex to damage where it is now until the devs sort out that stuff in the heroic levels with the enhancement revamp (or whatever the solution will be tied to) and then make changes then.

[Necrofred]

I don't post very often, but playing a dex-based rogue, I have to say an active clicky for dexterity to damage instead of a permanent buff destroys a lot of the excitement I had for this epic destiny. Its not as if there is not an already sufficient trade off for gaining access to it (passive bonus means we would have to stay in shadowdancer to benefit from it).

Also, its not as if I will be higher dps than a well-geared strength rogue with dexterity to damage regardless. If this ability was deemed too powerful in concept, I would suggest having it apply to finesse weapons only to balance it rather than moving forward with this clicky ability. Managing clickies is annoying to me. If it was a twistable bonus I could understand making it a sort of toggle ability, but I think its fine as is as a permanent, passive bonus.

I will say I like the newly revised epic moment though seems a lot better than the initial summoning idea.

[Aerinsma]

It's indeed a pretty big problem that leveling a character up to Shadowdancer status would necessitate awkward feat respecs (namely the removal of the now-redundant Weapon Finesse) in order to take advantage of its dex-based features. It's pretty clear something should be done about that on a more permanent basis, and probably not through the Epic Destiny system.

I'm aware a similar discussion has been going on with certain Fatesinger abilities tied to Charisma. After some discussion on our side we've decided that passive abilities in Epic Destinies that change which stat you use for to-hit and damage aren't the best way to handle this. Instead we propose creating some new active abilities that grant temporary buffs: both Fatesinger and Shadowdancer will now have an active ability (most likely tier 4) that gives full base attack bonus and allows you to use Charisma (Fatesinger) or Dexterity (for Shadowdancer) to damage if they are higher than your strength. They'll have a medium duration, probably around 45 to 60 seconds, and will cost a Bard Song or a Shadow Charge respectively. As mentioned in the Fatesinger discussions, we DO plan to re-evaluate a lot of this with the full enhancement pass, at which point we can decide how to allow using alternate stats for to-hit and damage in such a way that players can build themselves for it from level 1.

Please, please, please don't do this. I was so looking forward to this ability. Why not make Weapon Finesse a requirement for it? Most people it would help will have it anyway. You could make a similar feat at heroic levels for Charisma. The proposed new enhancements keep getting pushed back, it is unfair to make us wait for them you will have to do tons of reevaluating of epic enhancements when they come anyway, don't make me put my favorite chars on hold.

Also wish to add that I have no desire for my chars to slaughter good beings, which are the only ones affected by unholy damage.

[RenoTheRed]

It's indeed a pretty big problem that leveling a character up to Shadowdancer status would necessitate awkward feat respecs (namely the removal of the now-redundant Weapon Finesse) in order to take advantage of its dex-based features. It's pretty clear something should be done about that on a more permanent basis, and probably not through the Epic Destiny system.

I have to wonder why exactly this is a large enough issue to warrant what is for all practical purposes the removal of the dex-based features from the destiny. Dex-based rogues have been waiting for something for like this for ages, and if this change goes through then they'll have to keep waiting for at least another five months until the enhancement revamp. What are they supposed to do if it gets pushed back even further after this gets taken out? What harm would there be in allowing dex to hit and dex to damage to stay until then? At worst, it means dex based rogues would get less of a bump during the enhancement revamp when they take it in enhancements instead of something else, and they would still get whatever the replacements for Shadowdancer's bex-based abilities would be. In the meantime though, there are a lot of happy players running around. Dex to hit and damage was the single biggest draw to this destiny that I've heard people mention. Without it, they may as well take legendary dreadnaught.

Is there so much concern about replacing weapon finesse with an epic destiny? Why? One is a low level feat that can be taken by any character while still allowing any destiny it wants, while the other requires the character to not just dedicate itself to the destiny, but also multiple levels in the destiny before replacing weapon finesse. It certainly can't be concern about making feats useless, since Exalted Angel grants leap of faith, a Favoured Soul/Monk feat. They don't even have the option to replace their now useless feat. Yet there is no apparent concern for this in the favoured soul feedback thread. Is it that Shadowdancer frees up a feat and lets dex based rogues take another feat? I could see that except...it doesn't always do that. Twists of fate encourages leveling in different spheres, which would again require weapon finesse for weapons, so the only way to get away from it is a few dex to hit/damage weapons. If the rogue is built around those, then he'll swap out weapon finesse anyway, so it becomes a moot point. Any concern about weapon finesse being replaced by an epic destiny should not result in the destiny being nerfed enough to make weapon finesse competitive with it, that's just absurd.

[maigreur]

I concur with the rest of the crowd: the clicky is not a good option. Just a permanent "Dex to Damage" would be far better. On my side, requiring a feat swap for changing WF at later levels is not a big deal...

For the Shadow Jump what about allowing to trigger a kind of " Ranged Assassinate" ? The idea: you should be in stealth, without aggro, and then can trigger "assassinate" from range. You then teleport to the target and assassinate it.

A very good job otherwise, thank you !

[bbqzor]

We could possibly go with a duration more equivalent to Divine Power; we're still working out the details.

Please. I don't know what the intention is but a ton of the changes (both epic and otherwise) are forcing the general game into one of micromanaging many short term effects (as in, <=1min).

Even "short" buffs last 2 mins baseline at 20, for a reason. The game needs to cater to many types of players, both in ability and taste. Not everyone enjoys having to refresh multiple click effects every 10-60 seconds. Even having to refresh multiple effects in the 1-2 min range can feel like all you're doing is playing upkeep (anyone on a frenzy barb having to hit 2-3 buttons every minute, and stop actually playing for those animations, knows what I'm talking about... it gets real old real fast). And even if you do enjoy it, not everyone is adept enough at the game to quickly do it all in sync. People who are just slower already have a hard time, putting so many things on fast timers is just making them work uphill. Its clearly a game where human reflexes matter, and I'm not saying that should change. I'm saying adding such baseline function as being able to hit as a burden to the human side of the equation is unnecessary.

At least give these a 2-4 min duration. Frankly, I'm of the opinion they should be even longer and essentially "permanent" like Barbarian Rage or Inspire Courage. They are abilities which require building around to get any appreciable effect out of them, and its foolish to make any build tied to a tiny window of opportunity. No one is going to bother with the effort for a 2 point swing if their stats are 4 apart or something, and likewise no one is going to be able to play well if their stats are like 14 apart and the ability fades.

If you're going to effectively push building around an ability by making it directly rely on a gap in ability scores, because to make it worth while the difference has to be there, you need to allow those builds enough freedom to operate, or the entire thing is essentially invalid. Please don't wreck the appealing potential here with a boring and unappealing on/off style of game play. A lot of people are excited about this, and there are many examples in PnP of such abilities. They are popular for a reason, and at the epic stage of the game not terribly over powered. Handicapping them to a tiny window is just wasting the code they're made of. At least, IMHO. Thanks.

[krogyy]

dex-to-damage as a 1min clickie is useless.

instead, i would propose this 1min clickie to add the dex modifier as sneak attack damage on top of the strength damage (this should stack with acrobat's).

[Xezno]

Talk about cutting off the head when all we where asking for was a shave.

[Moltier]

Dex to damage have to be passive. Nuff said.

[Skavenaps]

tbh,i will be more than happy if shadow step becomes just Shadow Walk spell but with unlimited uses but with a short CD. Maybe even add darkvision to pack.

it fits on the theme, helps rogue move faster, hide better and run to the quest easly without needing to carry lots of invi scrolls.

[Xezno]

I dont even understand why you are continuing development of shadowdancer if you intend to nerf the dex to dammage.

1. There will be little or no incentive to go dex based - especially with the new AC pass.
2. If you go str based your only decent choice will be dreadnaught. (Just stupid to loose out on 6 str)

If you dont put back a passive dex to dammage somehow you might as well leave this entire destiny out because people would only pick it for flavour or to get acess to some twists. Either that or change out the +6 dex with +6 str lol.

[CoasterHops]

To me it looks like the whole clicky ability to offer dex to damage has just pretty much killed this destiny for a couple of builds I had planned.

Originally the destinies passive abilities looked awesome and would help to open up many builds and not just for rogues, now well I need not even worry about looking at changing a couple of toons, I guess I can say thanks as it will allow me to concentrate on other things.

So thanks Devs for making this change as it's just saved me two TRs and I can now basically shelve those toons.