Playing Together - Suggestions invited from a melee

[Zillee]

(Soloists etc, please skip. You're happy soloing and that's grand! Keep on rocking the game!)

In a perhaps naive attempt to be positive after reading all the posts that seem to be pushing a 'them and us' polarity regarding blue bars and non-blue bars, I'd like to hear some thoughts on how different classes can complement each other while questing. And yup, shoot me, I'm going to use those words that are anathema to many; team play.

I like team play. I prefer pugging or running with guildies to soloing. That's my preference. And when I same team play I'm not meaning sticking to a particular role in a party based on class. Am well aware that all classes can play a variety of roles. What I mean by team play is taking the talent present and using it to complete a quest efficiently, quickly and without making anyone feel like they're just the door opener.

I'm also writing this as someone, who while they have been here for a couple years now is by no means an expert. It's taken trying out various classes and races to understand them, and am still likely missing the obvious about some of the classes. For example, I used to hate grouping with monks. Speedy lil bugs who were trying to hit everything in sight. I had no idea how ki worked until I tried the class out myself. The light dawned and now when I see a monk smacking a mob, I don't go to help them finish it off, cos I know they're trying to refill their battery

So with all that said - as I mainly play a fighter (an unfashionable kensai on her second life and about to TR again) I'll be coming from that angle, but feel free to bring in other classes.

So, lets say you have a fighter with decent heal amp, hp and melee dps in your party. What would you like to see that fighter be doing to help the quest and support your class in optimizing the run?

For example, I'm thinking of crafting a a great axe with improved shattermantle. Waste of time, or not? Is there another debuffing weapon that would be helpful to support your contributions to the party I could make?

[QNecron]

As my Fighter (Stalwart):

- Cursespewing (Imp)
- Paralyzing
- Deception (Imp)
- Imp Sunder
- Imp Trip
- Stunning Blow
- AC high enough to dodge 90%+
- 20% Blur (Trinket/Bracer) to prevent getting hit when a hit does occur
- Healing AMP high enough to make "aura" healing sustain me

These are the things I contribute in a group setting. The Cursespewing being one of the most notable as many PMs I've noticed will wait for me to gather everything up and Cleave + Great Cleave to inflict Curse on everything before they Wail. Basically securing the kill I also run with the Golden Guile equipped if there is a Rogue in the group to help on that front.

As my Cleric (Radiant Servant):

- Greater Command (knockdown AoE - Will)
- Comet Fall (knockdown AoE - Reflex)
- Destruction (death to other healers/casters)
- Healing (Aura, Burst, Spells)

Doesn't seem as if I put as much towards a group on my Cleric than I do my Fighter, but we all know Healers are always a welcomed party member. Just keeping everyone 80%+ is enough to make every party happy from what I've seen. Pack some wands that remove negative effects, and cast your offensive spells when needed and you are golden. Why many choose not to play a Cleric? Idk I guess they don't want to be cornered into healing or something but that is one if not the main purposes/strengths of a Cleric. It would be no different than a Barbarian not wanting to DPS, just doesn't fit with the class.

[sebastianosmith]

For example, I'm thinking of crafting a a great axe with improved shattermantle. Waste of time, or not? Is there another debuffing weapon that would be helpful to support your contributions to the party I could make?

Fighter weapon-based debuffs require lots of swapping. I hope you have Quick Draw. Don't discount those tactical feats either. A mob knocked senseless or on its butt is not hitting anything. At this point, we melee types are there to clear the trash and keep the arcanes from wasting precious SP on the way to their nuking festival. Meh, it's a living.

(Improved) Shattermantle is going to be actually useful in about three weeks. Drow have wicked SR.

(Improved) Cursespewing comes in handy for your divine, PM and CC buddies.

(Improved) Destruction makes rogues happy when they get the chance.

Paralyzing works well through the Vale.

In short, use everything at your disposal. Give the barbs a hand whacking the front line mobs. Back up monks and rogues as they take out the casters. Rangers draw a lot of agro they can't handle. Lend them a hand. As a Kensai you're not going to tank especially well but given the right gear you can at least Intimidate some trash. Be a floating resource and help out where needed. But above all, don't splash anything on those prissy arcanes. Seems they can solo all content and only take us along for entertainment.

[Kyrgan]

I know that when working with casters on my melee I try to grab as many resist buffs andand boosts as I can an get my hands on and engage enemy casters and bosses. My main melee is a TWF (Tempest/Kensai) HORC with dual Rocksplitters spec'd for maximizing crits. Many times enemy arcane cant get spells off due to the onslaught when hasted. I use clickies to buff strength, etc. To date - level 13of almost 14.. this has been very successful. In general trash mobs, i try to get aggro via intimidate and then watch crits take down foes. My issue is with undead however - but this is to be expected with this kind of set-up. At that point I try to range as many as I can with with my Silver bow, then rush and crush with crafted maces.

[LazarusPossum]

As a long-time rogue with the assassin enhancement, I can't stress this enough.

If you send me in to scout, STAY OFF MY TAIL!

I know you want to see what's in store, but that's why I'm scouting.
In all likelihood, your sneak abilities may not even be close to mine, and the MOBS CAN SEE YOU.

If I am even close to being a decent rogue, I will report back to you with my findings. Even better, if I have voice chat, I will tell you what I see, and the clockface positions of the mobs I encounter.

Please, please stop blowing my cover.

[Kinerd]

Arcanes eat up trash, especially trash that moves reliably (almost all melee trash). Even if they can't be instant killed, they can all be kited into CC and AoE DPS. Because this is such an effective strategy, you will see it a lot. Do not try and chase after the melees that save against the CC to "help" the arcane. Hit the guys who have been CCed and are therefore standing still. The arcane can keep kiting the savers until they become losers. In addition to avoiding the terrible system DDO uses for physics checks on moving targets, you avoid taking damage while still dishing out maximum DPS.

-Important Exception!- You will run across the divines who think Blade Barrier kiting is a useful party strategy. My advice is just recall.

Enemy archers for whatever reason tend to have high saves and of course very erratic movement patterns. Usually if you pound on them they will jump backwards from you; therefore, circle them until you are facing towards the Web/Dancing Ball/Firewall/whatever and pound away. Ideally they will hop into the CC/DPS, but even if they don't you conserve resources.

Consider the first room of Epic the Tide Turns. There are a bunch of drow archers, a drow caster, and a bunch of hobgoblin archers. Epic drow have very high SR, too high for most arcanes to reliably penetrate. Therefore, you should not have four melees gang up on a single hobgoblin archer. (By "should not", I mean in the sense of efficient allocation of party resources.) In the end team play is just knowing everyone's strengths, hopefully exaggerating them, and at the very least not undermining them.

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Regarding melee debuffing and CCing, usually don't bother. There are more than enough targets for you to just DPS. If you can get it without giving anything up, sure, but you are pretty much always giving something up. The Frozen Tunic is an outstanding CC item, but where are you getting your heal amp? Where are you getting your Deathblock?

There are certain situations where melee debuffing can be very powerful, so it is worth your while to carry some form of Destruction etc., but if you find yourself using it all the time it is time to re-evaluate.

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You will also probably run across casters who simply refuse to buff(/CC/heal/whatever). Some of this is a consequence of the ship buff system, some of it is just casters being lazy and selfish, frankly. You go to war with the army you have, you know? Don't worry too much about it.

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In a lot of ways, everyone who wants to play as a party rather than 6 soloists in the same instance is going to have the same experience.
1. No matter what members of your ostensible party say, it's not always your fault.
2. But it sometimes is.

I think keeping these tenets in mind makes for a superior play experience.

[Uma-Quixote]

Arcanes eat up trash, especially trash that moves reliably (almost all melee trash). Even if they can't be instant killed, they can all be kited into CC and AoE DPS. Because this is such an effective strategy, you will see it a lot. Do not try and chase after the melees that save against the CC to "help" the arcane. Hit the guys who have been CCed and are therefore standing still. The arcane can keep kiting the savers until they become losers. In addition to avoiding the terrible system DDO uses for physics checks on moving targets, you avoid taking damage while still dishing out maximum DPS.

You don't avoid taking damage at all....the guys who are not CC'd are killing you...do the complete reverse! take out the moving enemy (maybe using paralysers or some-such as well) THEN move on to the helpless CC'd stuff




Consider the first room of Epic the Tide Turns. There are a bunch of drow archers, a drow caster, and a bunch of hobgoblin archers. Epic drow have very high SR, too high for most arcanes to reliably penetrate. Therefore, you should not have four melees gang up on a single hobgoblin archer. (By "should not", I mean in the sense of efficient allocation of party resources.) In the end team play is just knowing everyone's strengths, hopefully exaggerating them, and at the very least not undermining them.

Again, Don't do this....first off, The first thing to be taken out is ALWAYS the caster (particularly on epics), in this case the little drow slightly to the right..she will normally go down to an assasinate or a a beefy couple of blows - but after this the melees should work en-mass against the stuff not crippled by the CC...this simply minimises the amount of damage coming back at the party, and if you have at least 2 melees ganging up on each mob then he will go down fast. If you don't do this then while you are pounding away at held/helpless mobs the others are happily punching you in the face.

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I think keeping these tenets in mind makes for a superior play experience.

Or not......

[goodspeed]

I walk into the room, lay down a hail of ice so thick the cheap built dell pc's and sad macs explode from redering.

Then I point a finger and the drow wizard explodes into glass shards of ice.

Or I hit my buffs, I use my GS clickies that seemly most nubs do not have and I charge displaced and temporarily buffed/hasted/sped up into the ranks making hearts bursts from the chests of monsters as terror grips their minds and their god Cthulhu shoots from the ground to claim souls.

[Scraap]

General non-specific tips from a fighters perspective in dealing with other classes:

You can get defenses for when things get tight. Be kind to your divine and turtle up if you start taking too much damage.

Depending on content, let the rogue or monk get that fire-elemental's attention and point it away from the rest of the party.

Conversely, if it's a nasty named mob that prefers melee, or just hits like a brick, it's your turn to keep em turned.

Any ranged character worth their salt will bring mobs to one of 3 places: in the ground, in the aoe, or right in front of you, so no point in playing yakety-sacks while you chase things back and forth. (Which brings up another point: Keep a returner handy. It might not be much, but 20-50 points is still more than 0.)

Speaking of persistent aoes, there's 2 approaches folks can use: You as the agro magnet, so they'll be centered on you, or, to save SP from quickeing things like clouds and dancing balls, setting up their bunkers at choke-points that you can use to drag mobs into as well. It helps a lot to determine beforehand which type of caster you're dealing with. Some can adapt, some can't. Decide how much you personally want to compromise your preference. If you're really going to get on each other's nerves strategically, it may not be the best time to suggest that 4 quest long chain you've been eying and find another group better suited to your play-style.

For the folks that prefer instant aoe damage of whatever element or school: If they've the defenses (player reflexes) for it, they've got those mobs, find other playmates (quite a few raid strategies rely on just that in fact). If they can't hack the agro on thier own, intim+cleave works wonders to turn em around (And believe me. Forum warriors aside, you WILL see more of the latter than the former most places).

[Ralmeth]

Teamplay makes the game much more fun for everyone, IMHO! As for me, as I primarily play as a Paladin DoS, here's some general tips / things I like to do while running through a quest:

Tanking can be useful in a quest (and not just against boss mobs):
-I love it when casters throw an AOE spell such as firewall. In this instance I'll throw on my shield, hit intimidate while in a group of mobs and then move into the AOE spell, swinging away to try and keep aggro.
-If there's a rogue in the group, I also like to go S&B and hit intimidate at the appropriate tiem so that the rogue can get their sneak attacks or assassinates in with hopefully little chance of taking damage.
-If a mob is attacking a caster, cleric/FVS, etc I'll hit intim to pull aggro to me instead.
-If the quest is difficult and a lot of people are taking damage I'll also go S&B and try to pull aggro to me.
-And of course if a nasty red name shows up, I'll grab their aggro so that everyone else takes less damage.

DPS, but of course
-Equally important as a melee is to kill the monsters. So if I don't need to tank then I just focus on killing the monsters. I don't really bother with cursespewers and such. It seems faster in most cases to just try to kill the thing.

Party Support
-If I see a fellow party mate in trouble, I'll throw a Lay on Hands on them to get them out of the woods...You would be surprised at the number of times that I save the cleric/FVS who is supposed to be keeping me alive (even while tanking red names in a raid)!
-Raise dead and other curative effects: If someone is down, raise them up. If someone needs their HP topped off, a poison removed, level drains removed, help out. The other day in ESnitch, our Cleric was off in another part of the quest when someone died. I raised and healed them up and the cleric said something like..."uh, that's not me doing that. What the?"

I know that Paladins get a bad rap from some people, but they can be a real boon to a party IMHO if played and built right, and that's why I play them.

[Vint]

One thing that is often overlooked by many is using trip as a fighter. This one is very valuable. Of course it is nice if the fighter has the zuber epic weapon, but if they can at least use sunder, trip, cleave or other things at their disposal it can make it much easier on the party.

I know you dont like BYOH or solo play, but H/Elf can be very nice on a melee. If you can self heal a bit with wands it can take a burden off the divine.

[Zillee]

I'm enjoying reading the suggestions, though as to be expected really, what one person finds good, another finds not worth bothering with. I guess the answer in the end is to be ready for those situational moments when supportive tactics are useful, and to just spend the first moments of a quest getting a feel for how the others are playing. Then I'll know if I should be focusing on getting the casters, the general trash, or just opening the doors and pulling levers *laughs*

For example, I've learnt to not bother going after mobs if the caster has done an instant death spell for the fourth or fifth time on whatever I've been meleeing down. Easier to take a back seat (although dull) and wait until the bosses that can't be instant killed turn up.

On the self-sufficient front - got clickies coming out of my ears. Can't use them when I'm raged but meh, I guess I can switch boots for those times I'm relegated to door opener. Also have SF pots etc and learnt early on to keep stacks of pots for all situations. Not every melee is a burden to divines. I've no problem with going into a quest without a 'healer'. Really if I was going to buy the Helf race (and probably will given the sale in a couple days time) I'd prefer going for a rogue dilletante than cleric on my next TR, thereby adding something that improves on the whole point of a fighter.

I find the fighter tactics are useful ... for the fighter who is pounding on the mob. Not really in terms of supporting other classes. That's really what I'm interested in here. Going back to the original question ... a fighter walks into your pug - is there anything they can do in terms of gameplay to support your class and do that 'working as a team' thing.

[squishwizzy]

I like team play. I prefer pugging or running with guildies to soloing. That's my preference. And when I same team play I'm not meaning sticking to a particular role in a party based on class. Am well aware that all classes can play a variety of roles. What I mean by team play is taking the talent present and using it to complete a quest efficiently, quickly and without making anyone feel like they're just the door opener.

I'm also writing this as someone, who while they have been here for a couple years now is by no means an expert. It's taken trying out various classes and races to understand them, and am still likely missing the obvious about some of the classes. For example, I used to hate grouping with monks. Speedy lil bugs who were trying to hit everything in sight. I had no idea how ki worked until I tried the class out myself. The light dawned and now when I see a monk smacking a mob, I don't go to help them finish it off, cos I know they're trying to refill their battery

I do both casters and melees.

Melees are there to keep mobs OFF of the casters, because your average caster has low HP and low AC (by comparison) but is able to deal significant damage to one or more enemies via spells. But once they start targeting you, you're essentially f**ked.

Casters support melees by buffs, knocking down hp, or CC.

Melees, however, can do more damage via repitition, over time, without having to worry about the bluebar running low. So it becomes a question of balance: are you willing to wait longer while the mobs go down, or waste blue bar to take them down quick?

I've done some all-DOT eChronos, and some mixed eChronos. Neither one was easier than the other. I don't see an advantage of one over the other except when the details are situational. So then it just becomes a matter of how I apply what I have to the situation at hand.

Some of this sounds pretty obvious. Then again, you'd be surprised at how some people try to avoif the obvious for no appearent reason.

I find that running with diverse groups is WAY more enjoyable then it being an all-caster / all-melee gig. I don't mind being a partial buff bot if it helps melee keep the mobs off of me. Consequently, I don't mind getting my melee toons hammered with damage so long as I know the casters are helping me out. When mobs break throught he front line, I make it a priority to get their aggro.

[Xeraphim]

I prefer the Ranged support work on the Debuffs while Melee work the frontlines, aggro management and DPS. Casters contribute in whatever way they are configured to, be it buffage and CC, DPS or Combat Tactical Disruption.

This is why I play an Arti: Very few other players build+play a Ranged Specialist well.

If AA could contribute as well as an Arti (or better even, as they are ranged combat focused and Artis are Generalists), I would play one of those instead.

[inggold]

I'm enjoying reading the suggestions, though as to be expected really, what one person finds good, another finds not worth bothering with. I guess the answer in the end is to be ready for those situational moments when supportive tactics are useful, and to just spend the first moments of a quest getting a feel for how the others are playing. Then I'll know if I should be focusing on getting the casters, the general trash, or just opening the doors and pulling levers *laughs*

For example, I've learnt to not bother going after mobs if the caster has done an instant death spell for the fourth or fifth time on whatever I've been meleeing down. Easier to take a back seat (although dull) and wait until the bosses that can't be instant killed turn up.

On the self-sufficient front - got clickies coming out of my ears. Can't use them when I'm raged but meh, I guess I can switch boots for those times I'm relegated to door opener. Also have SF pots etc and learnt early on to keep stacks of pots for all situations. Not every melee is a burden to divines. I've no problem with going into a quest without a 'healer'. Really if I was going to buy the Helf race (and probably will given the sale in a couple days time) I'd prefer going for a rogue dilletante than cleric on my next TR, thereby adding something that improves on the whole point of a fighter.

I find the fighter tactics are useful ... for the fighter who is pounding on the mob. Not really in terms of supporting other classes. That's really what I'm interested in here. Going back to the original question ... a fighter walks into your pug - is there anything they can do in terms of gameplay to support your class and do that 'working as a team' thing.

Tactics are useful if used in a useful way.

Trip. And trip the right mobs. Disable and stun. The right mobs.

The notion of going S&B above for example, and pulling mobs to say a wall of fire.... dandy... except the caster already did that. Okay, maybe just maybe the caster of that blade barrier or ice storm or wall of fire needs you to try and kite instead of doing it themselves.... but more likely they are fine and really want that enemy caster or archer dead.. right... now. Often a better use for your tactics is to go and trip/stun that healer/caster mob that won't follow into the flames/blades/whatever... and knock it out.

That was always my monk's tactic. Run right through the opposing melee and take out enemy casters. They hurt worse in almost all cases, and are smart (or dumb) enough to not follow the melee-mob lemmings into AOE death, and caster mobs are usually more prone to be tripped or stunned anyhow.


Another one...Don't zerg. You really don't help gathering ten mobs onto yourself when you can't take the punishment they deal. Few melee classes are set up to zerg well unless tupidly well geared... so don't unless you are stupidly well geared.

Another one...Learn to use doorways to help create blockades. Spells and arrows get by you... mob's often don't. And only a couple can be hitting you, even better.

[t0r012]

one word :

grease

[Kinerd]

-If a mob is attacking a caster, cleric/FVS, etc I'll hit intim to pull aggro to me instead.

Be careful with this in the case of arcanes. If I am on my warforged and have an Ice Storm up, I can block, do 100% DPS, and throw in a Quickened Reconstruct (or PM tricks) to keep myself up with no problem. If a ton of aggro goes on you and you have to start blocking/potioning/scrolling, you go down to 0% DPS. I probably can't Reconstruct you for beans, and I certainly can't negative energy you up.

Obviously the situation is different if you're grouping with one of those half elves who has already died 5 times trying to pull off a scroll heal, but the point is that it's not necessarily the case that the group will benefit from you "rescuing" an arcane.

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It's worth pointing out how this advice does not contradict what squishwizzy has to say. If the wizzy is squishy, rescue it. If it is not, don't take aggro from it, because it's a safe bet that it's better suited to fighting with mass/major aggro than you as a melee are.

If AA could contribute as well as an Arti (or better even, as they are ranged combat focused and Artis are Generalists), I would play one of those instead.

The trick with AAs is to put on 6 monk levels so you can spend dramatically more time ranging productively with 10k stars.

[Phidius]

...
For example, I'm thinking of crafting a a great axe with improved shattermantle. Waste of time, or not? Is there another debuffing weapon that would be helpful to support your contributions to the party I could make?

I recommend a Roaring Great Axe of Improved Shattermantle. The DDOWiki doesn't list a save, but rather that the target simply becomes shaken (-2 to saves). I've not actually field-tested it in a laboratory setting, but it certainly seems to land on each hit.

Cursespewing, on the other hand...

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

one word :

grease

You did read my thread, did you ? http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=366665

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Intimidate.
Sunder
Shattermantle (especially in the expansion content)

and see what you can do to find a way to raise the dead.

Carry some heal kits, or some way to revive incapped characters, like the Korthos Aid clickie.

Those are what I can think of right now to directly help other players.

In-directly, bring your own pots of various cure-alls.
This helps everyone else, and you too.