Max/emp on a PM

[Iaga]

I pulled a +4 int tome a while back on my sorc. I've been trying to ignore it for a bit, but, i just can't not take advantage of such a nice find.

So i'm looking at a PM build and wondering about a couple of things ...

INT 5 levels + 4 tome + 2 cap + 3 enh + 10 items + 2 ship + 2 yugo + 2 lich = 30
That's 30 points i have for sure. I don't have a litany and don't run many abbots, so i don't know how likely i am to get the added point.

Which leads to race. Do i go with drow for a 50 INT or human for 49 and either hope for a litany or some other odd INT bonus?

And secondly, feats. Heighten, SF necro, GSF necro, SF enchant, GSF enchant, quicken, extend, toughness, mental toughness, PL Wiz ... that's ten.

Other options are: Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen, Insightful Reflexes, Maximize, Empower, Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery.

I'll assume with enough past lives, spell pen is lowest on the list [especially if i go drow, because then i have the AP to pick up 3 enhancements]

I really like the DR shields provide - BUT - can a PM get by without maximize and empower? Just go with insta kill, cc and clickies ... ?

[tekkentroop]

In my opinion, a PM can drop empower. I made a thread about this, opinions were split. I tried empower but only activate it for raid bosses, thinking about swapping it out for more spell penetration next life.

Maximize on the other hand is absolutely necessary. You need at least some damage on dots and negative energy burst, and imagine the pain of leveling up without maximized nukes...

One way to free another feat is swapping out mental toughness after you get access to lich form (at lvl 18+2 ranks)

[Iaga]

I made a thread about this, opinions were split. I just went through that - interesting read and thanks for mentioning it.

Empower and Maximize is only 25% over Maximize, though, is the point. Is 80% spell DPS really "mostly useless"?

That quote was particularly interesting to me.

A few thoughts:

-Maximize is absolutely needed I'm starting to feel this way too
-enchant feats are absolutely not, with 48+ int you are all set in most content, just debuff in the other 5%. I don't have much exp with cc - i'll pester a few guildies about cc breakpoints in the stuff my guild typically runs - it's something to consider
-drow do not get racial spell pen enhancements I meant the non-racial +3 you can get
-wraith form is not good enough when you have lich to warrant mental toughness, particularly with changes to ghostly items. I was thinking of the incorp for tanking?
-insightful reflexes is a must. It is the difference between failing every reflex save and making every reflex save. Yep, have it now and agree with you.
-shield mastery is nice but need a feat for proficency first on pure wiz.

IMO, dump both SF/GSF:ench and mental toughness.

Grab insightful, maximize for sure. Probably empower too. Thats 10.

Then 2 routes you can go:

1. shield prof/shield mastery for more tankishness. I really like DR - it helps a TON and with the procs a PM often has, this seems like an exceptional synergy and something i'm really looking to do

or

2.spell pen/greater spell pen for drow instakills.

Would have the same total if you went drow ... I have everything i need to run with a 50 base as a drow. If i went human i'd gain a feat but drop a DC.

Thanks for the input.

1. pl wiz
2. heighten
3. quicken
4. extend
5. toughness
6. sf necro
7. gsf necro
8. shield
9. shield mastery
10. insightful reflexes
11. maximize

12. spell pen/sf enchant

Of course, the kicker in all of this is we might be getting more feat slots in the new content? Another 2 lots would solve all my problems rather nicely?

And I still don't bellive that +4 tomes exist! Its a lie! Well, i can verify they do, just never on the character you want them to drop on

[Vellrad]

Be dwarf!

I like to have empower, all casters use their dots on bosses after all, but if you can't fit it into your build, don't cry about it.

And I still don't bellive that +4 tomes exist! Its a lie!

[MRMechMan]

A few thoughts:

-Maximize is absolutely needed
-enchant feats are absolutely not, with 48+ int you are all set in most content, just debuff in the other 5%.
-drow do not get racial spell pen enhancements
-wraith form is not good enough when you have lich to warrant mental toughness, particularly with changes to ghostly items.
-insightful reflexes is a must. It is the difference between failing every reflex save and making every reflex save.
-shield mastery is nice but need a feat for proficency first on pure wiz.

IMO, dump both SF/GSF:ench and mental toughness.

Grab insightful, maximize for sure. Probably empower too. Thats 10.

Then 2 routes you can go:

1. shield prof/shield mastery for more tankishness.

or

2.spell pen/greater spell pen for drow instakills.

[mwgarn]

I took both max and empower, though if I had to drop one I would drop empower.. But max/empowered dots are nice when you don't care about mana.

I went human, I to will probably never get a litany(raiding with little kids in the house is hard..) and will probably never get my staff of inner sight completed.

Toughness
Extend
maximize
Past life wizard
Spell focus necro
Insightful reflex
Mental toughness (I like this even after getting lich form for the odd times I want wraith form)
Empower
Greater spell focus necro
Spell focus enchant (to be swapped out for shield focus when I get some better gear)
Heighten
Greater spell focus enchant (see sf enchant for shield mastery)
Quicken

As human with a guild that has a +2 int shrine
18 base int
5 levels
6 item
3 exp (tod ring.. Still don't have dang raids and kids don't mix well..)
4 tome ( kids and raids again)
2 lich
1 human adpt
3 wizard enhancements
2 capstone
2 guild
2 Yugo pots
48 total..

Would have the same total if you went drow +1 base -1 human adpt..
The difference is when you add in litany OR a +7 item.. If you have one as a drow it makes you end on an odd number, if you have both your set, as human if you have one you can drop human adpt to be even if you get both you can add human adpt back in to be even again.. A bit more flexibility with maintaining an even int score..
Both drow and human can end at 50 int with +7 item +4 tome litany and Yugo pots.. At that point I would drop sf enchant and gsf enchant and grab the shield feats..

[DDOisFree]

Never underestimate a Helf wizard with Barb dilly!

So much more HP than the other fleshy races available, and for less AP spend than it would be on Dwarves and WF, plus access to Human INT +1.

Im also sat on 48 int currently with a +3 tome, would be 49 with a +4 tome, and 50 for a drow. But is that +1 DC really worth losing so much HP (Helf, Dwarf, WF), a bonus feat (human), or extra spell penetration (Elf)?

IMO for the most powerful pure caster, once you have a +4 INT tome and can maintain 48 INT, Elf would be the strongest because spell penetration is far harder to obtain than improved DCs. With more spell penetration, fewer of your spells will fail on epics

[Iaga]

IMO for the most powerful pure caster, once you have a +4 INT tome and can maintain 48 INT, Elf would be the strongest because spell penetration is far harder to obtain than improved DCs. With more spell penetration, fewer of your spells will fail on epics

This is something i'm considering as well. I seem to recall reading another thread somewhere where the general opinion was that even if you sell out totally to Spell Pen you still won't have enough for epic drow and be overkill for everything else

[good_ole_corwin]

even if you sell out totally to Spell Pen you still won't have enough for epic drow

Not true. IIRC, epic drow SR is about 45. Selling totally out to spell pen is achieving the highest possible spell pen, which on a wiz atm is:
20 lvl + 4 feats + 9 PLs (3x wiz, 3x FvS) + 3 enhancements + 4 elf + 3 greater spell pen IX item + 2 arcane augmentation IX item = 45 unless I missed something.

But you dont have to get all that, there are tactics you can use. Round them up, have a barb do a great cleave with improved shattermantle in the middle = -6 to SR. Have a FvS nearby = -2 to SR. Have a spellsinger in group for bonuses to spell pen.

and be overkill for everything else

well, yeah. Most other endgame stuff caps SR in the low 30s, thats more than 10 points less than epic drow. So of course, if you aim to spell pen epic drow, you will be overkill for everything else.

[-Zephyr-]

I wouldn't go the shield mastery way.
With level cap increase coming very soon, hitting epic drow SR may not be all that impossible anymore.
That, and shield mastery doesn't synergies well with arcanes.

I just capped my own wiz (human because I have litany and +4 int), and went spell pen/greater spell pen ; and I love it.

[DarkForte]

I actually like having wraith form just to be able to sneak effectively (I love soloing eClaw for example).

[Such755]

Haters are gonna hate me for this but a pale master can definitely drop empower.
It's not your job to blast things, it's your job to point at creatures and watch as they drop dead.

[morticianjohn]

Haters are gonna hate me for this but a pale master can definitely drop empower.
It's not your job to blast things, it's your job to point at creatures and watch as they drop dead.

I'm no hater. I hear what you're saying and yet I would say empower spell is better than the other feat options. There are many situations where boss DPS matters. From killing devils when scroll farming in epic Chrono to shroud, chrono, ToD and other raid bosses I enjoy having the ability to cast for damage in addition to the instakilling.

Please, if you're a caster without empower.... do not join all caster groups which generally rely on each party member having maximized, empowered, and otherwise boosted dots. I will grant you that one person who is excellent can make up for one who happens to be underpowered but having been in some mediocre caster groups I have to wonder how many people are dumping empower....

[Iaga]

Please, if you're a caster without empower.... do not join all caster groups which generally rely on each party member having maximized, empowered, and otherwise boosted dots. I will grant you that one person who is excellent can make up for one who happens to be underpowered but having been in some mediocre caster groups I have to wonder how many people are dumping empower....

I still see the merit in empower and haven't made a decision either way [sadly, i'm going to have to put 2-3 WIZ past lives on this toon to really get it done which will allow me to try builds with/out empower]

BUT, the part about not joining caster groups without empower...? Sure, it's not optimal DPS but where do you draw the line? could i join without an eardweller? or only 7/1/1 in my elemental enhancements? or pick up shield mastery so that i'm able to be the tank in an all caster group?

We are talking about a pm here - arcane DPS is a part of the build but it's far from the most important part of it.

I've been in a number of all caster runs and honestly, i find poor survivability to be a bigger issue than optimized DPS.

[morticianjohn]

I still see the merit in empower and haven't made a decision either way [sadly, i'm going to have to put 2-3 WIZ past lives on this toon to really get it done which will allow me to try builds with/out empower]

BUT, the part about not joining caster groups without empower...? Sure, it's not optimal DPS but where do you draw the line? could i join without an eardweller? or only 7/1/1 in my elemental enhancements? or pick up shield mastery so that i'm able to be the tank in an all caster group?

We are talking about a pm here - arcane DPS is a part of the build but it's far from the most important part of it.

I've been in a number of all caster runs and honestly, i find poor survivability to be a bigger issue than optimized DPS.

empower also helps a PM survivability since you get more healing from your negative energy burst

My point is really if you aren't pulling your weight. If you could duplicate yourself 11 times do you have enough dps to take down the bosses? If the answer to that is yes then join up. Eardweller helps to cover for the lack of empower and having the right dps specs in enhancements is great but when I join I hope that each member is as ready to completion as I am.

[LOOON375]

I ran out of feats and could only fit in maximize. No empower for me.

[Maegin]

Empower ftw.

All caster runs that can all triple stack dots and self heal, make (epic) raiding very very simple...

To all the nay sayers, your choice is respected. Till then, seeing is believing.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I would drop gsf enchant, holding stuff is so U8.

[Simplesimon1979]

[Sarzor]

I personally like empower. Could just be I've played a caster long enough, as well as having torc/conop/bauble, I have a good idea where I can dump sp, and where I can't. When soloing, my PM SLAs are enough to fill in blanks where I don't need to kill fast, and where I need to kill fast empower + maximize goes a long way for me. Generally the only time I run out of sp is either when I'm doing so intentionally or when things have gone very badly south.

That being said, everyone plays their wizard different. I personally in groups tend to focus on CCing/wailing, and when soloing go either slower and kill cheaper (SLAs/wails/ice-storms) or zerg like mad and barely touch anything unless it needs to be touched. I know many of the people I group with use sp significantly faster or slower than I do, so short story: how do you play?