CC Bard Advice

[Requiem_83]

I am currently planning a very specialized charisma based crowd control bard. I am working on my wizard/fvs past lives in order to get my spell pen up. Here are my questions from the all knowing turbine community:

1. What is the breakdown for the max spell pen that a bard can achieve?
2. What is the breakdown for the max enchantment dc's that a bard can achieve?
3. Any other past lives that you think may be beneficial?
4. What feats would you take and in what order?
5. OPINION: How would you outfit this type of character at endgame as far as equipment goes? Keep in mind that this build is meant to bee 100% crowd control and any other benefits are simply coincidental.

Please feel free to answer any or all questions.

Thank you for your time.

[morticianjohn]

Enchantment DC's

10 base
6 spell level
1 spell focus enchantment
1 greater spell focus enchantment
1 wiz past life
2 item
2 bard capstone
1 bard past life
1 spellsong

then your charisma mod (if you get +19 your DC is now 44)

edit:// trying to get everything in here but probably missing something for charisma

25 starting stat + level ups into charisma
7 item
1 exceptional
2 exceptional
3 tome
2 ship buff
1 litany
3 bard enhancements
2 yugo pot
2 capstone

48 charisma is a +19 mod

I think that is everything. I never make these types of posts so I probably missed something.

[Jaid314]

sorcerer past lives can be useful. spells like sound burst and greater shout work on targets that your enchantment spells simply will never work on.

of course, i'm not sure you'll want to farm 3 sorcerer past lives for that. and i'm also not even a little bit sure you'd have enough feats to buy the evocation DC increases (and unfortunately, your capstone doesn't really offer any help there at all).

also, obviously, the bard past life active feat can offer +1 enchant DC.

[morticianjohn]

sorcerer past lives can be useful. spells like sound burst and greater shout work on targets that your enchantment spells simply will never work on.

of course, i'm not sure you'll want to farm 3 sorcerer past lives for that. and i'm also not even a little bit sure you'd have enough feats to buy the evocation DC increases (and unfortunately, your capstone doesn't really offer any help there at all).

also, obviously, the bard past life active feat can offer +1 enchant DC.

Bard capstone. Something I forgot in my post good catch.

+2 CHA for 1 more DC and +2 enchantment DC. I will edit my post to include it

Also don't forget about the SP boost from sorc past lives. The evocation bonus is not an active feat so he wouldn't have to buy them but it still seems like a lot of trouble for only a little bit of a boost to a couple of niche spells. If bard past life works with wiz past life then that could be another +1 DC.

Added spellsong trance for +1 DC. Still nothing in my first post includes debuffs that you can apply to the enemies such as mind fog or FvS AoV

[Gorbadoc]

1. What is the breakdown for the max spell pen that a bard can achieve?

20 bard levels: 20
Bard capstone: 2
Wiz Past Life x3: 6
FvS Past Life x3: 3
Spell Pen (feat): 2
Greater Spell Pen (feat): 2
Improved Spell Pen III (enhancement): 3
Greater Spell Pen VI (item): 3 (I'm pretty sure the item-based spell penetrations don't stack with each other)

Total: 41

Of course, this is hypothetical. Spell Pen is only applicable for a bard if 1) The monster has spell resistance, 2) the monster can be enchanted, and 3) song-based CC is inadequate. There are monsters like that, but I'd hold back on the feats and some of the enhancements in favor of more universally-applicable abilities. That's in part personal taste, though: I can see some possible value to landing reliable Disco Balls on drow in the upcoming epic content.

[Psyker]

There is also more Spell Pen available with elf enhancements.

edit...Oops just remembered this is for wizards only

[morticianjohn]

20 bard levels: 20
Bard capstone: 2
Wiz Past Life x3: 6
FvS Past Life x3: 3
Spell Pen (feat): 2
Greater Spell Pen (feat): 2
Improved Spell Pen III (enhancement): 3
Greater Spell Pen VI (item): 3 (I'm pretty sure the item-based spell penetrations don't stack with each other)

Total: 41

Of course, this is hypothetical. Spell Pen is only applicable for a bard if 1) The monster has spell resistance, 2) the monster can be enchanted, and 3) song-based CC is inadequate. There are monsters like that, but I'd hold back on the feats and some of the enhancements in favor of more universally-applicable abilities. That's in part personal taste, though: I can see some possible value to landing reliable Disco Balls on drow in the upcoming epic content.

The big problem I see with all of these hypotheticals so far is how many feats will be required.

To get higher DC you'll need

Heighten
wiz past life
bard past life
spell focus
greater spell focus

To get higher spell pen you need the 2 spell pen feats. As you say it hardly seems worth it. That would take up all 7 feats.

I guess that answers the OP's question about feats. Assuming you're still going for max spell pen and max enchantment DC's and these are your 7 feats I don't think it matters which order you take these feats in they all do nearly the same thing. Maybe take the spell pen feats towards the end when you have to face more enemies with spell resistance.

Alternatively if you go elf you can take 2 levels of wizard with no loss in spell pen by taking the elven arcanum enhancements as psyker points out. This will give you an additional feat. Or you could go human for an additional feat either way I'd probably just take toughness as HP can be a problem for some bards.

In terms of gear for your character we know you'll need these items to max your DC/Spell pen

greater enchantment focus item (staff of the petitioner)
greater spell pen item (epic torc)
Litany
+1 & +2 exceptional charisma items (+2 from ToD ring and +1 slotted on some epic item)
+7 charisma item (maybe epic mask of comedy or epic helm of frost slotted with +1 cha)

Other items that you'll need

Heavy fortification
as much constitution as you can get
+6 str item for carrying stuff
Shroud SP and HP items
Archmagi item

[Requiem_83]

Thanks for the replies so far. This build has been a project of mine for quite a while and I am on my fourth life with just a few more to go. A couple of my questions have been answered and maybe I can provide more information to help as well.

This build is complete crowd control and I will be going the virtuoso route mostly for my beloved enthrall/capering song. My biggest lack of knowledge is in how to gear him. I already have greensteel hp and conc opp item, and I am crossing my fingers that the gods will shine on me one day and I will pull a torn (currently on run 60-something and only seen one drop to a guildie). I'm also working on my TOD bard ring sets, and would like to get some Epic Elyd Edge's for the charisma modifier's. Any advice on further equipment would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again for the advice.

[BoBoDaClown]

Enchantment DC's

10 base
6 spell level
1 spell focus enchantment
1 greater spell focus enchantment
1 wiz past life
2 item
1 ship buff
2 bard capstone
1 bard past life
1 spellsong trance

Spellsong and ship buff don't stack.

[BoBoDaClown]

20 bard levels: 20
Bard capstone: 2
Wiz Past Life x3: 6
FvS Past Life x3: 3
Spell Pen (feat): 2
Greater Spell Pen (feat): 2
Improved Spell Pen III (enhancement): 3
Greater Spell Pen VI (item): 3 (I'm pretty sure the item-based spell penetrations don't stack with each other)

Total: 41

I think you're missing - Song of Heightening and arcane augumentation items.

[morticianjohn]

Spellsong and ship buff don't stack.

Thanks for that tidbit. I will edit my post to reflect that. Also apparently it doesn't stack with a greater enchantment focus item. I don't think there are any epic enchantment focus items so that will be another loss of DC.

Thanks for the replies so far. This build has been a project of mine for quite a while and I am on my fourth life with just a few more to go. A couple of my questions have been answered and maybe I can provide more information to help as well.

This build is complete crowd control and I will be going the virtuoso route mostly for my beloved enthrall/capering song. My biggest lack of knowledge is in how to gear him. I already have greensteel hp and conc opp item, and I am crossing my fingers that the gods will shine on me one day and I will pull a torn (currently on run 60-something and only seen one drop to a guildie). I'm also working on my TOD bard ring sets, and would like to get some Epic Elyd Edge's for the charisma modifier's. Any advice on further equipment would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again for the advice.

By the time you finish this project epic enhancements will be released which might change everything for you. In terms of gear the 5 piece abishi set could be nice for the extra CON. You would have a +7 CON item and a +7 CHA item included there. Epic Torc will be your spell pen item so your greensteel SP conc OP could go in your goggles spot and a greensteel HP in your belt slot. If you use a trinket for your greater enchantment focus item and a ToD ring for your exceptional CHA +2 then you would have 1 ring slot and the armor slot available to add anything else you feel that you're missing.

[BoBoDaClown]

Thanks for that tidbit. I will edit my post to reflect that. Also apparently it doesn't stack with a greater enchantment focus item. I don't think there are any epic enchantment focus items so that will be another loss of DC.

Spellsong definitely stacks with focus item.

Pretty sure item stacks with the enchant ship buff - that's a recent change (it used to not) - although I'm not sure about this, because I'm always running spellsong (which doesn't stack with the buff).

[morticianjohn]

Spellsong definitely stacks with focus item.

Pretty sure item stacks with the enchant ship buff - that's a recent change (it used to not) - although I'm not sure about this, because I'm always running spellsong (which doesn't stack with the buff).

Ok, I was looking at some other discussions and they were saying that ship buffs and/or stormreaver napkin don't stack with greater spell focus item. This is probably what doesn't stack. If the spellsong stacks with the greater spell focus item then it should also stack with the ship buff (since those are the same bonus apparently)

OP this also means that virtuoso is the wrong choice for such a specialized toon as you lose 1 DC automatically unless you're always running around with another bard.

[BoBoDaClown]

Ok, I was looking at some other discussions and they were saying that ship buffs and/or stormreaver napkin don't stack with greater spell focus item. This is probably what doesn't stack. If the spellsong stacks with the greater spell focus item then it should also stack with the ship buff (since those are the same bonus apparently)

To be clear:
Spellsong: +1 Morale Bonus
Item: +2 Item bonus (no idea what this is called)
Phiarlan inspiration: +1 morale bonus

This used to be different. The type of bonus of the ship buff changed an update or two ago, so you might be looking at old discussions - the item and ship buff used to not stack - now they do. Now it is the ship buff and song that do not stack.

[BoBoDaClown]

OP this also means that virtuoso is the wrong choice for such a specialized toon as you lose 1 DC automatically unless you're always running around with another bard.

No it doesn't - because you can pick up the +1 from the ship buff instead.

[Rusty_Can]

5. OPINION: How would you outfit this type of character at endgame as far as equipment goes? Keep in mind that this build is meant to bee 100% crowd control and any other benefits are simply coincidental.

I would go for epic Elyd Edge: CHA modifier for attack rolls and damage (situational melee), Anthem (songs regenerate over time), Inspiring Echoes (single target songs become mass buffs), Superior Devotion VI (covers all your healing spells), Silver + red slot.

[Gorbadoc]

I think you're missing - Song of Heightening and arcane augumentation items.

If that's how they work, then, yes; I'm definitely missing +caster level effects. How do they work, then? If I have +1 effective caster level for some spell, does the game engine also apply that +1 for purposes of spell pen?

[BoBoDaClown]

does the game engine also apply that +1 for purposes of spell pen?

Yup