And another "streak" thread...

[mobrien316]

In my opinion, the bravery bonus streak mechanics discourage people from grouping and make it harder to fill PUG’s. Any LFM posted for Normal is likely to be ignored by anyone with a Hard or Elite streak. Any LFM posted for Hard is likely to be ignored by anyone with an Elite streak. And, with the current mechanic for streak bonuses, it certainly makes sense for those people to ignore those LFM’s. If I have an Elite streak of 5+ going, I will get a bonus of 250% to my XP for the first-time completion of an Elite quest not more than two levels below my character level. If I run that same quest on Normal or Hard before running it on Elite I will never get that high a bonus, even if I run it on Elite later. It's the "never again" part that discourages grouping; a streaker joining a normal group is forever losing the XP bonus they could have gotten by running the quest on Hard or Elite.

This absolutely discourages grouping. If my level 17 wizard with a 150+ Hard streak logs on and the only quest in his level range he sees posted is In the Flesh on Normal, I am not going to hit that LFM if I haven’t run that quest already. Neither is any other level 15-17 with a streak.

I would much prefer if I could hit that LFM on Normal (because I vastly prefer playing as opposed to sitting around waiting) while still being able to get the big XP bonus for running it on Elite at a later time.

Here’s an idea to replace the bravery bonus streak with a mechanic that does not discourage grouping.

First of all, full bonuses go to all party members as long as no character is more than four levels above the normal level of the quest. This will eliminate the lack of access to groups for anyone who is three or four levels above the quest level, causing some groups to fill more quickly.

Character Level = Not more than two levels above listed quest level:
First time completing Normal = 50% bonus to XP
First time completing Hard = 150% bonus to XP
First time completing Elite = 250% bonus to XP

Character Level = Not more than three levels above listed quest level:
First time completing Normal = 40% bonus to XP
First time completing Hard = 135% bonus to XP
First time completing Elite = 225% bonus to XP

Character Level = Not more than four levels above listed quest level:
First time completing Normal = 30% bonus to XP
First time completing Hard = 120% bonus to XP
First time completing Elite = 200% bonus to XP

For example, if a party completed In the Flesh on Hard, the level 17 player, the two level 16 players, and the level 15 player would all receive a 150% bonus to XP, while the level 18 player would receive a 135% bonus, and the level 19 player would receive a 120% bonus.

If anyone thinks it makes things too easy to let in people who are four levels over the quest, they are free to post their LFM’s for only two or three levels over the quest.

The intent here is to remove a mechanic that discourages people from joining a lot of groups, while still keeping the tremendously helpful boost to XP that eases the endless grind for TR’s on their third or greater life. While I don’t agree with the idea that the streak “punishes” players who join groups that break the streak, I can certainly see the reason why a lot of people feel that way. If I do this (join a group running a quest on normal when I haven’t run that quest yet) I am forever forfeiting a huge XP bonus; losing a bonus is not the same as being penalized, but for all intents and purposes the end result is the same. The group killer is the “first time” bonus tied to the streak; if we can do away with that without negatively impacting XP we can make it a lot easier for PUG’s to fill which is only a good thing as far as the continuation of the game is concerned.

[Kromize]

Something needs changed to promote grouping for quests on normal difficulty again that's for sure.


I think the bravery bonus is an interesting concept, but just lacks solid grounding as to not affect grouping. Not to mention you need either a VIP in your group or some sacrificial person to run it norm and hard so you can get your elite bravery bonus... Which just isn't fair. If I could, I would buy from the DDO store something to allow me to open quests on hard/elite on my first run...


I think the streak is a more interesting concept than the bravery bonus though, as you get more and more xp for going on a streak. However in it's current form it really discourages normal pugging, and probably should be changed.

The question that remains is: How do you change it to work?

Your suggestions is good, but I think it's a bit rough around the edges.


Perhaps a different type of streak could be implemented. One that gives a bonus % of xp for every consecutive run you do within 10-30 minutes of each other. For example:
Run 1 quest, streak is started, current level on 10%
2nd quest, 10% extra xp, streak increased to 20%
3rd quest, 20% awarded, streak increased to and maxxed at 30%

While you can't get bonuses as high as you could with the other system, you can get more bonuses for playing more.

This encourages more playing and less waiting. Which also encouraged more pugging. What do you think?

[Xynot2]

Something needs changed to promote grouping for quests on normal difficulty again that's for sure.

That's easy- stop joining groups that have *BB* on them.

What people are not realizing about bravery bonuses is that you max out your bonus after 5 runs. EASY to regain you BB. The more people that realize this, the more will be willing to run a casual or normal run. (except the guy that is trying to get 100% elite streak... frikin OCD)

[Kromize]

That's easy- stop joining groups that have *BB* on them.

What people are not realizing about bravery bonuses is that you max out your bonus after 5 runs. EASY to regain you BB. The more people that realize this, the more will be willing to run a casual or normal run. (except the guy that is trying to get 100% elite streak... frikin OCD)

Yes, but if you're trying to level up quickly as well as play the game, you may not want to end your streak like that, let alone do a new quest which would remove it from the eligibility of a bravery bonus or streak in the future. Furthermore, there aren't many pugs advertising normal difficulty anymore due to the bravery bonus, most of them say "Elite - Need Opener", and then they wait up to 30 minutes waiting for someone to open it for them. While it's obvious they would get more xp by running more quests in the time that they spend waiting, the extra xp is something they feel the need to wait for regardless. And it would be better to change the way the it works, rather than leave it like it is.

Bravery Bonus alone is biased towards VIP's, which is understandable as Turbine just wants more money... Also a bit silly, as many people doing quests for the BB and streak are TR's, and most likely have done them before. Nothing "Brave" about doing something you've already done before... May as well call it "BUY VIP NOW bonus"...

But the Streak bonus is not only bias towards VIPs, but bias towards running quests on normal for your first time. And for people who doesn't want to run the same quest over and over again, it's a bit annoying to be expected to run elite no matter what. There are instances where I have joined a group advertising normal, and some guy that wanted his streak bonus opened elite anyways. I had already done it elite, and hard, and just wanted the normal first time xp bonus, but due to the streak bonus I had to choose between repeating another needless time, or getting viewed as that jack*** who left the group after it had just started the quest.

Basically, the Streak bonus causes too much drama. And a lot of people don't like it, nor do they like the "Bravery Bonus".

[sirgog]

I have absolutely no trouble getting people to join LFMs for normal runs when I'm doing them.

Most people that actually look beyond the big numbers understand now that doing a hard or normal run of something (and consequently breaking streak) is almost always more XP than waiting around in town for something that fits a streak.

The slowest TR life I've done since U11 was the one where I stubbornly decided to not break streak at all while playing a class that couldn't solo well (Paladin life). The fastest TR lives have involved breaking Elite streak around 15 or so except caster lives (where you can still speedsolo elites).

[Airgeadlam]

Some well put stuff that I don't fully agree with

First, let me say I do respect the work you've done and your post, but it does not convince me. Once again, we're blaming a feature instead of blaming the players. Legend builds do NOT need a full elite streak from 1 to 20, not even to level up fast. Hero and Champion/adventurer builds do not need it either. As an example, I'm currently leveling a 2nd life toon in a guild TR group. Two of us are 2nd life, others 3rd+ lives. What happens with elite streak? The two of us are running quests without getting any XP. Several of them. Just for fun and "help" the legends. There's so many avaliable XP that you will still miss most of quests. On a first life? I could have reached lvl20 before entering Shroud for the first time.

What if you break the streak? You only have to do other 4 quests (and you have plenty) and then you're set again. What if you lose ONE xp bonus, ONCE? It's not that bad. If the only "In the Flesh" you see is normal, go run it, or post your LFM.

Also, you can get the first time bonus for elite even if you break your streak, so not that bad either. And you can get this with 3 levels above the base level. More bonus with 4 levels above? Hate to say it, but THAT would be an easy button.

Yes, but if you're trying to level up quickly as well as play the game, you may not want to end your streak like that, let alone do a new quest which would remove it from the eligibility of a bravery bonus or streak in the future.

As it has been stated many times, it's faster to break your streak sometimes than stick to it like if there's no tomorrow.

Furthermore, there aren't many pugs advertising normal difficulty anymore due to the bravery bonus, most of them say "Elite - Need Opener", and then they wait up to 30 minutes waiting for someone to open it for them. While it's obvious they would get more xp by running more quests in the time that they spend waiting, the extra xp is something they feel the need to wait for regardless.

Again, blame the people, not the feature. Those kind of people are the same guys who would wait 1 hour for a "healer and tank" for WW in normal way before bravery bonus existed. If they choose to wait, up to them. God himself could descend from the heavens and tell them "By me! Just run the freaking quest on normal! You have avaliable like 200x the xp needed to get to 20!" and they will be there waiting no matter what. You can eliminate the bravery bonus and they would find another thing to wait for. Also, LFMs are free, post your own. I know people joined my hard/normal runs (Thelanis speaking) and Sirgog says it too (in Khyber), so if noone, never, joins your lfm... well, it's weird.

Bravery Bonus alone is biased towards VIP's, which is understandable as Turbine just wants more money... Also a bit silly, as many people doing quests for the BB and streak are TR's, and most likely have done them before. Nothing "Brave" about doing something you've already done before... May as well call it "BUY VIP NOW bonus".

Big lol! Bravery bonus was conceived to lessen the grind on TR people, so they could avoid doing the same quest over and over and over. For TRs. Them. Not first lifers who can get to 20 without noticing. TRs. And you know what TR people get even as ftp? Yep, they can unlock hard on 2nd life, and elite on 3rd+ ones. No need to go all conspiranoic here. What's more, I'm VIP and I wouldn't mind if you have to level first a toon to 20 to unlock elite for all your toons to follow. First lifers do NOT need streak.

But the Streak bonus is not only bias towards VIPs, but bias towards running quests on normal for your first time.

By his very definition, yes. It was a bonus to help TRs lessen the grind and also make hard/elite difficulties desirable AT LEVEL. Normal at level is what you're supposed to run. Before bravery bonus everyone did hard or elite ABOVE level, because there was no penalty. Bravery bonus corrected this a bit.


So, not signed.

[McFlay]

@OP

What hurts grouping is scaling. Its not that nobody is running normal, its just that its so ridiculously easy to run normal solo with scaling why would I waste even 30 seconds looking for random pugs to fill in?

I don't even have to look for a trapper on normal, since traps in most content scale down to like 3 damage and you can totally ignore them. Don't need a healer, csw pots, class based healing abilities, or parking a hireling are more then sufficient with mobs hitting you for 6 in a level 10 quest. Don't need dps, a naked wizard can punch mobs to death thanks to scaling.

If anything elite streaking is the only reason I have to group. Everyone cries they want an easy button and should be able to solo everything...turbine gives them an easy button, and now everyone cries its hard to fill groups. Well really??? I wonder why...

[Chai]

I have absolutely no trouble getting people to join LFMs for normal runs when I'm doing them.

Most people that actually look beyond the big numbers understand now that doing a hard or normal run of something (and consequently breaking streak) is almost always more XP than waiting around in town for something that fits a streak.

The slowest TR life I've done since U11 was the one where I stubbornly decided to not break streak at all while playing a class that couldn't solo well (Paladin life). The fastest TR lives have involved breaking Elite streak around 15 or so except caster lives (where you can still speedsolo elites).

This.

Also: Even when I can still speedsolo stuff, I do it in a way that encourages grouping afterward. We just did gianthold this weekend, all on elite first, then took a break, then I logged back on and put together a group for hard and normal runs rotating through all the same quests. We also did lordsmarch part 2 chain elite, and I farmed that on normal and hard with another group I put together.

[Chai]

If anything elite streaking is the only reason I have to group. Everyone cries they want an easy button and should be able to solo everything...turbine gives them an easy button, and now everyone cries its hard to fill groups. Well really??? I wonder why...

And when the dust clears we realize it was many of the same people who complained the game needed to be solo-able, who also complain that elite streak hurts grouping on other difficulties. When I bring this up from time to time, hilarity ensues. Its not the elite streak that hurts grouping on normal and hard, its dungeon scaling.

[gummolo]

Why do not let the bravery bonus only to TR character (who effectively need more XP to cap) and make first life character not elegible for it? First lifer can keep hiting those LFMs but now they lose one of the most important incentive to do so --> more normal and hard LFM.

[decease]

hmm here is my two cent: the streak pause program:
how it work: add a npc to harbor which pause your streak progress, when paused you will no longer receive any further streak or streak bonus exp, you will not losing any streak either.

how to balance: set a one day timer to resume your streak.. also cash shop item to resume it at anytime. (like blood of dragon..etc which may or may not also appear on loot list)

why doing this: first release people from their leash, second help turbine earn some more cash to build this game better =)

[Xynot2]

Long winded reply shortened.

My point wasn't to berate people who go for BB. The point was to tell the OP, deal with it or start your own group. Personally, I avoid pugs with BB in the comments because, in my experience, the guy running it usually treats the party as if he's doing them a favor by letting them in his group. So I avoid them unless I really need that quest.

Im all about play how you want to. And my remarks were to tell the OP not to try and make everyone play his way. Find people you like playing with and run with them. There are several servers, thousands of players and this guy whines about the ones who like running BB. It's like TV- dont like what's on, change the channel. Cant find anything on, do something else. But dont call the TV station and whine about their programming. You will be the only one.

[TrinityTurtle]

Just the other side of the coin, you could add a giant normal bonus, with all sorts of extra stuff dropping, and I still dont' want to do it. I was doing elite only long before the bb. It's about doing the quest, getting the favor, and moving on. I don't want to keep doing the same quest over and over and over every toons every life. I want to do it once, get the exp, and move on.

You want to play normal, go for it. Have fun, make some freinds who are in the same place as you are, and go wild. Making a group of freinds among the players generally active at your time is awlays a better way to get thigns going than a pug group, regardless of difficulty.

But I really think it's experience with the game, and teh sheer amount of long term players who know the quests inside and out already that was responsible for the lack of normal and hard players more than the mechanics. Some of the newer players whose eyes are all shiny with the bonus xp not realizing how unecessary it is in a first life may change their habits, but I think a lot of us who want the best shot at a loot drop and to grab our favor and go will still be doing elite only our toons entire career with or without bonus.

[Kromize]

Big lol! Bravery bonus was conceived to lessen the grind on TR people, so they could avoid doing the same quest over and over and over. For TRs. Them. Not first lifers who can get to 20 without noticing. TRs. And you know what TR people get even as ftp? Yep, they can unlock hard on 2nd life, and elite on 3rd+ ones. No need to go all conspiranoic here. What's more, I'm VIP and I wouldn't mind if you have to level first a toon to 20 to unlock elite for all your toons to follow. First lifers do NOT need streak.

Wait! wait wait wait wait... Wait just a second. Since when can TR's and 2nd TR's open on hard and elite?!

My TR can only open normal? Have I been ripped off?

This... changes things quite a bit... Now I feel...ignorant...


Seriously tho, my TR can NOT open on hard, only normal. *** ddo devs?

[Airgeadlam]

In addition, true reincarnation allows a premium/f2p character to open quests on a higher difficulty - the first true reincarnation allows the character to open quests on Hard difficulty, and second and subsequent true reincarnations allow the character to open quests on Elite (VIPs can, of course, open all quests at Elite on any character).

Quoted from DDOwiki. Well, I will admit, I'm VIP myself so never checked myself, but that's what it says. If not, I stand corrected.

[SiliconScout]

Wait! wait wait wait wait... Wait just a second. Since when can TR's and 2nd TR's open on hard and elite?!

My TR can only open normal? Have I been ripped off?

This... changes things quite a bit... Now I feel...ignorant...


Seriously tho, my TR can NOT open on hard, only normal. *** ddo devs?

I only have the 1 TR right now (he's back to lvl 20) and I could open on Hard for sure and I am premium.

If it's not working for you I would bug report it. I think that showed up in Update 12, maybe 11.

[AtomicMew]

My point wasn't to berate people who go for BB. The point was to tell the OP, deal with it or start your own group. Personally, I avoid pugs with BB in the comments because, in my experience, the guy running it usually treats the party as if he's doing them a favor by letting them in his group. So I avoid them unless I really need that quest.

Im all about play how you want to. And my remarks were to tell the OP not to try and make everyone play his way. Find people you like playing with and run with them. There are several servers, thousands of players and this guy whines about the ones who like running BB. It's like TV- dont like what's on, change the channel. Cant find anything on, do something else. But dont call the TV station and whine about their programming. You will be the only one.

While nuance is something that people often don't want to think about, you really should make the effort to understand that the OP isn't talking about his situation, but the situation of the player base in general. "Go make your own group" is missing the point.

[mobrien316]

I understand that the streak was designed to help ease the TR grind. However, from a number of reasonable complaints posted on this board, as well as from my own in-game observations, it seems an unintended consequence of the streak was to make it more difficult for PUG's to fill. I don't believe this is good for the game.


If the first-time bonuses are increased, and the streak done away with, no one would lose out at all. TR's (and everyone else) would still get their XP bonus, but there wouldn't be a mechanic in place that strongly, strongly encourages people to avoid joining groups.

If a person logs on with the intention of doing GH flagging quests, and they see a couple of LFM's up for Normal, they will almost certainly avoid those groups if they have a Hard or Elite streak going. If they join on Normal and they have an elite streak they are going to lose out on the 250% XP bonus for continuing that streak, which strongly encourages them to keep the streak alive.

I think it would be better if a person in that situation could join that normal LFM and actually play, which is better for everyone. More people playing is only good for the game. More people waiting around for groups to fill while other people who want to run the same quest are posting LFM's of their own on another difficulty is not good for the game.

If you are one of the uber elite who doesn't want to slow yourself down by grouping with the unwashed masses who run things other than elite, this won't affect you one bit. You can still solo everything in the game while using zero resources and will still get the same XP. Or you can group with like-minded demigods who don't want to be slowed down by someone who hasn't run the quest a few dozen times previously and might actually not know what to do at a certain point.

If you are someone who likes running quests on Hard, this won't affect you one bit except that it will be easier to fill your groups, because all the people who currently avoid your LFM because they don't want to break their elite streak will now be happy to run the quest on Hard and get a huge XP bonus.

If you are someone who likes running quests on Normal, this won't affect you either, except that you will also find it easier to fill your groups because all the people who are currently avoiding your LFM because they don't want to break their Hard or Elite streak will not be more likely to join your LFM and actually PLAY instead of waiting and waiting and waiting.


So, what's the downside to this again?

[Mathermune]

My solution. (let's assume that dungeon scaling is off the table for now)

Step 1) Halve streak bonuses (12.5% for max hard, 25% for max elite)
Step 2) Reduce the XP to cap a second life character by 12.5%
Step 3) Reduce the XP to cap a third or more life character by 25%
Step 4) ???
Step 5) Profit

------------

Edit.

I'm leaving it up there for posterity and a reminder not to reply too early.

I think that's actually a bit simplistic. I would still prefer to see a solution with the XP cap being lowered to a certain extent. Maybe not in the way I just suggested now though.

[Chai]

While nuance is something that people often don't want to think about, you really should make the effort to understand that the OP isn't talking about his situation, but the situation of the player base in general. "Go make your own group" is missing the point.

Its missing no point whatsoever. The literal solution is to become our own advocates for what we want to do, and stop suggesting changing the entire system so that everyone else has to play the way the person making the suggestion wants them to. This involves creating our own groups when none are up for the content + difficulty we want to run.

The OP is saying that theres a mechanic in place that makes people avoid joining groups, however, he is pointing at the wrong mechanic. Dungeon scaling is the mechanic that encourages people to solo more, not bravery bonus.