Rogue Class suggestions

[obscure.jester]

Hiya.

I have some suggestions about rogue class I'd like to discuss with you.

Played a rogue up to lev 20, assassin build, and after some pondering I noted the following things, which made me think about some changes may be nice in order to improve gameplaying:

1) huge gap between early game and endgame. while rogues are the most wanted thing on low lev adventures, on high levels they lose too much of their potential as many traps can be simply passed by a decent st and their edge on dps is almost totally lost since their "sneak and run away from melee" is much less effective on a fight due to foes having thousands and thousands of hp. staying in melee of course is not an option as hp are too low and same for ac, above creating real life hate by healers.

possible suggestions might be to improve their melee skill adding their INT to ac, as WIS for monks, and/or providing their sneak attack with something useful as a non cumulative autostun up to 10 seconds in case of critical hit (not working on red names and above).

2) prestiges have some very minor difference. they may have "flavour" but few impact on the game in my opinion. my assassin was as good as a mechanic into trapping, disabling even on a 1 roll on elite raids, with DD normally maxed out, a +15 item and a starting INT of 16, boosted by +6 gear and tome +2. same thing is achievable by an acrobat. cant see that much difference on game impact, thus was wondering if is not the case to have some prestige design reviews, especially since artificer class can deal with traps just as well as that, plus giving nice boosts to the party via weapon buffs and disrupting aggro a bit with the dog, useful as chew toy in case.

possible suggestions might be to improve the difference between these 2 classes in some way, maybe with new prestiges and some different skills/feats. I invented some classes and prestiges which would suit this case via a class generator to have them balanced, can ask me info about in case.


of course there might be something i am not considering, in which case i'd be glad to hear your opinion about and discuss it. a better gameplay is always best thing to achieve.

[SiliconScout]

1) huge gap between early game and endgame. while rogues are the most wanted thing on low lev adventures, on high levels they lose too much of their potential as many traps can be simply passed by a decent st and their edge on dps is almost totally lost since their "sneak and run away from melee" is much less effective on a fight due to foes having thousands and thousands of hp. staying in melee of course is not an option as hp are too low and same for ac, above creating real life hate by healers.

possible suggestions might be to improve their melee skill adding their INT to ac, as WIS for monks, and/or providing their sneak attack with something useful as a non cumulative autostun up to 10 seconds in case of critical hit (not working on red names and above).

I think the problem you are having there is that you need to make sure you delay jumping into the scrum for say 6 to 10 seconds. This allows the melees / casters to pull the aggro and then you don't have to worry about HP and AC so much. With evasion you shouldn't be taking that much damage really. If you are pulling aggro you need to either slow down your DPS or delay jumping into the scrum (hard I know).

I only have the 1 Rogue and he's an AA build (I know weird, but trying out a concept) so it's less of an issue for me. However I have a guildie who's main is a pure rogue on he's on his 3rd life. He rarely needs healers attention so long as the meat shield is up because he rarely pulls aggro. The only quests I have seen him die in are filled with undead and running on elite shortmanned at level.

2) prestiges have some very minor difference. they may have "flavour" but few impact on the game in my opinion. my assassin was as good as a mechanic into trapping, disabling even on a 1 roll on elite raids, with DD normally maxed out, a +15 item and a starting INT of 16, boosted by +6 gear and tome +2. same thing is achievable by an acrobat. cant see that much difference on game impact, thus was wondering if is not the case to have some prestige design reviews, especially since artificer class can deal with traps just as well as that, plus giving nice boosts to the party via weapon buffs and disrupting aggro a bit with the dog, useful as chew toy in case.

possible suggestions might be to improve the difference between these 2 classes in some way, maybe with new prestiges and some different skills/feats. I invented some classes and prestiges which would suit this case via a class generator to have them balanced, can ask me info about in case.

They are doing a complete re-work of the enhancements system (and thus prestige classes) in the update after the expansion so chances are we will see something there that will address this. But don't' get hung up on the trap monkey thing (though Rogues get evasion which makes them better than Arty's especially in certain quests and raids) it's overrated. People think that is what Rogues are but they aren't they are DPS, and some of the best DPS in the game really.

[obscure.jester]

i wonder then if my rogue assassin experience has been somehow contaminated by a neverending quantity of bad parties as my meat shields somehow always failed to avoid me pulling aggro. and it's not like i run to battle, as a rogue i always stay as last in line, hidden, wait for melees to pull mobs, wait for melees to get aggro on them, then i sneak, i hit for something like 200ish dmg in a swing and have to start running around with 6 foes chasing despite my less treat boosts (enhancement, diplo maxed out, turbulent epee...). and things get worse on epic....

[Kawai]

I would have to jump on that bandwagon myself. The Rogue is a class that has been ignored for far too long, along with the Ranger, Bard, and Cleric. The new Enhancements *should greatly improve them all and restore them to thier orignal greatness. ...Well, we can hope anyway.

On a side note, cudos for pointing out that Rogue DPS is no joke. Properly used and equipped, theyre frikking deadly. I cant stand seeing the little thiefies get disincluded in quests or raids simply because of partyleader ignorance.
Tarelyn -Achillesia, Thelanis

[obscure.jester]

i agree about ignoring some classes as above and having difficulties into joining epics and hi lev raids due to leader's ingorance. i find as sample bards essentials in raids and in high lev quests. and i dont even start cleaning path to HoX if i dont have a bard in my party as i wont enter raid without. rangers are underrated too but i think it is due mainly to the large number of tempests in game, mostly used by noobs (who doesnt remember how many tempest with starting CON 8 one has seen?) or people playing a bit till mid lev and then quitting. AAs indeed are awesome and in increase recently. i myself have an epic one and im having great fun with (rgr11/mnk9), very playable, versatile and huge dps. perfect for raids. is true as well that a good rogue build isnt that simple (str, dex, con, int are all basilars, cha for umd....) as requires many points (32+ preferibly), many feats (2wf set, improved crit, finesse...) and good playing skill (wait, sneak, go back, positioning, NO ZERG...).

[SiliconScout]

i wonder then if my rogue assassin experience has been somehow contaminated by a neverending quantity of bad parties as my meat shields somehow always failed to avoid me pulling aggro. and it's not like i run to battle, as a rogue i always stay as last in line, hidden, wait for melees to pull mobs, wait for melees to get aggro on them, then i sneak, i hit for something like 200ish dmg in a swing and have to start running around with 6 foes chasing despite my less treat boosts (enhancement, diplo maxed out, turbulent epee...). and things get worse on epic....

Could be, they should have hate gear and you should have maxed out your thread reduction and equipment.

Our guildie very rarely pulls aggro, especially if there is a caster in the mix so it could be bad grouping as well.

[GoRinNoSho]

Part of the trick is guaging the dps of others around you and using your abilities. Go in second or first in stealth (barring quests like eBig Top where if you go in first in stealth they magically see you). Get a good assassinate DC.

If you pull aggro then you may be swinging to hard/fast. When running with Guildies I can past life rogue, titans grip, haste boost 4 and not take aggro because it is a combo that is tested. Pugging I test the waters and vary my tempo based on the party.

If you are over aggroing, try periodic assassinates instead of constant attacks.

[Zoogar]

Rogue is my favorite class in the game. It appears that a lot of other players don't allow the rogue to use there abilities to the fullest. I find that the rogue sneak ability is way to slow, as before I can maneuver in to position, someone grabs agro and I waste my assassin attack as the target moves out of range. It would be nice to see the assassins ability to assassinate go off as much as the terror does.

It is very rare to find good fighters that throw down intimidate during combat, very critical for gaining that all important sneak attack. I played with a few very good people during my first live that understood the capabilities and would allow me to complete my tasks.

I would like to see the speed & damage boosts increased from 5, seems strange that these can not be increased. Also it would be nice to see the blades in the shroud be changed to allow a reflex save.

Anyway, just some random thoughts... Lots of changes could be made to improve the overall effectiveness of the rogues in general.

Zoogar, Thelanis

[Xynot2]

I say wait for the expansion stuff to hit and then come back to this. No way of knowing how it will effect rogues since everyone in the beta is playing Druids.

[Spoprockel]

Try to get your rogue a greensteel radiance weapon.

It may take a while to get all the ingredients, but it'll totally change the way you play your rogue.


Radiance blinds trash mobs and orange names (no red or purple named) on a confirmed critical hit for around 18 seconds.
The timer refreshes with every new crit.

Blind mobs are vlunerable to sneak attacks even if they are agroed on the rogue. And they have a 50% miss chance.


For bossfights try to get some items that provide threat reduction (Tharnes set, Vulkoors cunning set, Tod set, Turbulent Epee).

In boss fights that don't require agro managment (most rednamed in 6-man quests) use deception/improved deception weapons/items to get your sneak attacks if you pull agro.

Don't use them in Tod, Vod, echrono, basically everywhere where you have one person to tank the boss, as deception seems to do weird things with boss agro from time to time.

[Miow]

Rogue is my favorite class in the game. It appears that a lot of other players don't allow the rogue to use there abilities to the fullest. I find that the rogue sneak ability is way to slow, as before I can maneuver in to position, someone grabs agro and I waste my assassin attack as the target moves out of range. It would be nice to see the assassins ability to assassinate go off as much as the terror does.

It is very rare to find good fighters that throw down intimidate during combat, very critical for gaining that all important sneak attack. I played with a few very good people during my first live that understood the capabilities and would allow me to complete my tasks.

I would like to see the speed & damage boosts increased from 5, seems strange that these can not be increased. Also it would be nice to see the blades in the shroud be changed to allow a reflex save.

Anyway, just some random thoughts... Lots of changes could be made to improve the overall effectiveness of the rogues in general.

Zoogar, Thelanis

Just want to say that boosts can be increased with enhancements and say a veriks necklaces for example.

[grandeibra]

My 2 cents OP

A rogue imho is all about max dps. No other melee toon does more dps for the majority of mobs we meet. Instakill, coupled with inherent vorpal, coupled with 7-800 dps. The drawback is **** dps vs sneak-immunies and lower hp

1) I am a bit surprised (and happy for you) that you felt your rogue was most wanted at lower levels. My experience is that the anti-rogue sentiment starts early and never ends, and partly for good reason

2) as some others mentioned: max out your threat reduction if you grab hate often

3) max out your hp gear. You should not be afraid of being hit 1, 2, even 3 times imho

4) if you do grab aggro do not run around. this is one reason why people don't like rogues, same as rangers. Stand your ground, and you will lose aggro quickly since you aren't getting sneaks. If really necessary shield-block so you lose aggro quicker, then start swinigng again

5) I disagree with some other posters about staying out of the melee, waiting for tanks to hit for 6-10 secs. This decreases your total dps in that fight by ca 700*10 seconds. Far too much for my liking. I prefer going in directly with the tanks, or say 1 swing after them. Jump stealth assassinate, swing at any live mobs ^^

6) some people really like dipl/bluff (and use em much better than I have learned to do). In fight I feel they take too long but in certain situations they can be great helps

[Xynot2]

*deleted due to NDA on Beta*

See my previous post as it was before jumping into the beta.

[nibel]

i wonder then if my rogue assassin experience has been somehow contaminated by a neverending quantity of bad parties as my meat shields somehow always failed to avoid me pulling aggro. and it's not like i run to battle, as a rogue i always stay as last in line, hidden, wait for melees to pull mobs, wait for melees to get aggro on them, then i sneak, i hit for something like 200ish dmg in a swing and have to start running around with 6 foes chasing despite my less treat boosts (enhancement, diplo maxed out, turbulent epee...). and things get worse on epic....

Do you use bluff? You dont have to be trained on it. Only hitting the bluff button reduces your threat in 25% for 6 seconds. If you are trained, succeding in a bluff check also make the mob vulnerable to sneak attacks for the same time... by everyone on your party. This may even help your fellow tank to get a small damage boost if she have ring of stalker or tharnes.

Otherwise, just see if you are dealing sneak damage. If you are not, change targets. Always hit something that is not trying to hit you. If your target is the only mob around and he is hitting you, bluff and keep attacking.

My rogue don't have treason, and is working on his epic vulkoor cunning set. Only with 30% threat reduction enhancement, he rarelly grab agro, unless he is the only one hitting the mob.

...which remind me. Just in case, did you remember to turn ON the threat reduction stance? Caster threat reduction is a passive effect, but on rogues it is an active stance. You need to turn it on eery time you log in.

[LOOON375]

Agro management! You have to learn/teach yourself ways to manage agro.

When you get sneak attack damage, you WILL steal agro from the other melees in the group regardless of how well they are geared and built.

When you pull agro, hit something else. IT's also ok to just simply stop swinging for a second or two. You will do way more damage in the long run.

Look for weapons and or gear that will 'blind' the mobs. Can make all the difference in the world.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The best way to improve Rogues would be to remove their ability to disable traps.

[parowan]

You've got some good advice here already.

If you can't afford/grind out a rad2 weapon, then you could try a rapier of air from the challenges - much easier to get.

You should have enough hp and to-hit that you can stand toe to toe with a mob without running, or shield block and diplo until you lose aggro. Only run if you're soloing or if your party is so gimp you might as well be soloing.

Never walk around in stealth unless you're actually sneaking somewhere. When using stealth for combat you should be in the air. Jump -> stealth -> kill.

Number one element for rogue builds that rely on their sneak attack is PATIENCE. Never be first to engage unless you're assassinating lone mobs. Usually you just have to wait one swing from a normal melee and unless they're a craptastic toon or you're too uber (and inept) to manage yourself you won't take aggro before the mob is dead.

The barbarian or tank can run in screaming "look at me" and get attention from every mob he can, but the rogue must pay attention in order to see which opponents are properly engaged with other party members. The rogue hits with precision, he doesn't swing blindly.

Remember: a well-built rogue can stand toe-to-toe with a mob and beat it down like any thug. But slitting throats is so much more stylish!