Cleave for monks? Why not?

[HatsuharuZ]

I don't understand why some people say that the Cleave feat is useless to monks. Monk unarmed damage die increases up to 2d10 (without items, monk past-life feat, or Earth stance), and essentially counts as a one-handed weapon since you don't get glancing blows with your fists. Now, why shouldn't a monk take Cleave? Certainly, it's another clickie in a class that has way too many, but that doesn't in itself make Cleave useless for an unarmed monk.

[Chai]

There are so many better feats than cleave for just about anyone.

A FB barbarian spamming supreme cleave is something to behold, but regular cleave has a cooldown, and it just hits everything in front of you in an arc once. Those who described it as useless were fairly accurate in their assessment.

[TheLordBear]

The guys that are against cleave really don't understand its real use. The Ki generation and random stuns from stunning wraps are what push it over the top. With vampiric wraps you can get a nice HP boost too. Damage is really secondary, and not as poor as people like to think.

With fire stance or a +1 ki item and a group of mobs you can easilly get 10+ ki in a single blow.

On a light monk, you need cleave or one of a few other feats, notibly combat expertise which can't be used with power attack. Ok for a monk tank, but not for DPS. On a dark monk you might give up Improved Critical: Bludgoning. Raising the crit range a whopping 5% isn't a real big component of DPS, but extra ki generation sure can be.

At later levels with tharask wraps, killing a bunch of powerful mobs in a millisecond kinda rocks too.

Cleave: never leave home without it!

[Kielbasa]

My light monk uses cleave since it can be used as a prereq for shintao. I think it was probably better at lower levels before I had so many fun and useful abilities to spam. Its much harder to fit into a rotation now. But I still use it from time to time and its nice to see freezing ice proc on multiple enemies in front of you. The only other options I would think of using instead would be combat expertise, had I gone for max ac this life, or luck of heroes. It would be nicer if they let you proc offhand and doublestrikes off cleave.

[AylinIsAwesome]

I know on my Dark Monk, there's no way I could fit it in.

Toughness
TWF/ITWF/GTWF
Dodge
Power Attack
Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
Past Life: Monk
Improved Sunder
Stunning Fist

[Dandonk]

I don't understand why some people say that the Cleave feat is useless to monks. Monk unarmed damage die increases up to 2d10 (without items, monk past-life feat, or Earth stance), and essentially counts as a one-handed weapon since you don't get glancing blows with your fists. Now, why shouldn't a monk take Cleave? Certainly, it's another clickie in a class that has way too many, but that doesn't in itself make Cleave useless for an unarmed monk.

Unarmed does not count as a onehanded weapon. It's a TWF style, so when using Cleave you lose offhand procs. And while the animation isn't as long as before, it still takes a bit.

Situationally Cleave has its uses, true. But I have never found free feats to use for it, having other and IMO better options for the slots. Aylin's summary looks good to me, for instance.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Cleave isn't a bad choice for a light monk, or, at least, not that much worse than any of the other choices.

Interesting to note that ghostly item effect is being changed to 10% concealment which won't stack with shadowfade which might interrupt the current dark monk monopoly on monk tanks. Combat Expertise/light monk is going to look like quite a good tank build come U14.

[MRMechMan]

Perhaps the unarmed range is shorter with cleave too.?

I honestly can't fit it anyway, and the monk attack speed makes the delay from cleave even more painful than with other classes (it's been improved but you still lose speed).

Monks don't really need the CC it potentially provides...although if you could cleave AND stunning blow at the same time that would be pretty sweet.

[edgarallanpoe]

For a dark monk it is hard to fit in but for a light monk I cannot see why someone *wouldn't* take it.

Luck of Heroes is nice but with Improved Evasion and insanely high saves it is really not good for a monk.

I take Cleave on every single light monk I roll. I have a set of +1 Paralyzers that I Frosty Bursted so at level 10 I put them on a I basically walk through most quests. Gather mobs...hit Cleave and watch the blue lights flash...kill with impunity. Wash, rinse, repeat. That will work all the way through the Vale so we are talking around levels 10-16.

Cleave is incredibly powerful and unless you are a dark monk you would be nuts to *not* take it.

[Claransa]

Cleave isn't a bad choice for a light monk, or, at least, not that much worse than any of the other choices.

Interesting to note that ghostly item effect is being changed to 10% concealment which won't stack with shadowfade which might interrupt the current dark monk monopoly on monk tanks. Combat Expertise/light monk is going to look like quite a good tank build come U14.

I think you got that backwards, in U14 ghostly actually becomes useful.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...10&postcount=6

[Chai]

The guys that are against cleave really don't understand its real use. The Ki generation and random stuns from stunning wraps are what push it over the top. With vampiric wraps you can get a nice HP boost too. Damage is really secondary, and not as poor as people like to think.

With fire stance or a +1 ki item and a group of mobs you can easilly get 10+ ki in a single blow.

On a light monk, you need cleave or one of a few other feats, notibly combat expertise which can't be used with power attack. Ok for a monk tank, but not for DPS. On a dark monk you might give up Improved Critical: Bludgoning. Raising the crit range a whopping 5% isn't a real big component of DPS, but extra ki generation sure can be.

At later levels with tharask wraps, killing a bunch of powerful mobs in a millisecond kinda rocks too.

Cleave: never leave home without it!

Crits are part of ki generation. Monk attack rate is pretty high as it is. Setting up a situation where improved cleave will generate good KI, then executing the move, while keeping the mobs there is far less efficient than concentrating on single target without interruptions and paying more attention to stunning mobs, which ramps up the entire groups DPS while taking an extra damage source away from the mobs, thus helping your healers as well. There is space before and after activation time where concentrating on single target DPS and stunning mobs is seamless. My monk doesnt have KI issues while being good CC and enabling the party to do more than they could before.

Also, did you just sacrifice improved crit, then talk about the tharaak wraps killing a bunch of powerful enemies in one single shot? That proc you speak of is an "on crit" proc.

[MRMechMan]

I think you got that backwards, in U14 ghostly actually becomes useful.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...10&postcount=6

He was saying the 25% incorporality from darkmonk is now less useful as you can just get 10% on an item.

I am not saying that you are wrong-ghostly is indeed becoming more useful, but when deciding light monk vs dark monk paths, this change makes the choice of light monk more tasty.

[sebastianosmith]

I have a set of +1 Paralyzers that I Frosty Bursted so at level 10 I put them on a I basically walk through most quests. Gather mobs...hit Cleave and watch the blue lights flash...kill with impunity. Wash, rinse, repeat. That will work all the way through the Vale so we are talking around levels 10-16.

This is the same technique I use. I play with a semi-static group of four with no arcane casters. Consequently, we short man everything bereft of any nuking support. Having the ability to incapacitate the front line melee mobs with a single maneuver then jump to the casters while the rest of the party cleans up in my wake makes Cleave an indispensable feat for us. Granted it is highly specific to certain needs, but when need arises I'd rather have it than not.

[Claransa]

He was saying the 25% incorporality from darkmonk is now less useful as you can just get 10% on an item.

I am not saying that you are wrong-ghostly is indeed becoming more useful, but when deciding light monk vs dark monk paths, this change makes the choice of light monk more tasty.

Right I see that now, he said "changed to 10% concealment" when he meant to say incorporeal. Sympathy to my dark monk brothers and sisters taking the hit in U14, has there ever been an update that hasn't impacted the monk somehow?

[Claransa]

This is the same technique I use. I play with a semi-static group of four with no arcane casters. Consequently, we short man everything bereft of any nuking support. Having the ability to incapacitate the front line melee mobs with a single maneuver then jump to the casters while the rest of the party cleans up in my wake makes Cleave an indispensable feat for us. Granted it is highly specific to certain needs, but when need arises I'd rather have it than not.

I use a similar technique with various weapon affects. Improved destruction, cursespewing and in the expansion perhaps shatter mantle. I play a light monk but I'll put out what debuffs I can if that's what it takes.

[TheLordBear]

Also, did you just sacrifice improved crit, then talk about the tharaak wraps killing a bunch of powerful enemies in one single shot? That proc you speak of is an "on crit" proc.

Fair enough, I forgot they were on crit, since I don't have them on my main, just on one of my Alts.

Since I mostly solo everything except raids, I'm usually surrounded, and therefore usually spamming cleave for all the reasons listed by everyone above.

I find The dps 'loss' to be very over-exaggerated by most people. With the cleave speed increase you're only losing 1/2 an attack at most, plus offhand. So if you have 3 mobs within range, its totally worth throwing.

I would still have it over any other choice as a light unless I was making a tank. I love it on my dark, too. At the very least its something you should have while levelling, and then swap out for improved crit at high levels.