To Hold and Be Held. A Sad Game Issue.

[CavernDragon]

To Hold and be held,
Is there any hope that we can level the playing field with this (Hold Person, Paralyzed, Disco Ball, and heck even web) When we are held, WE ARE HELD! No sliding around the dungeon at speeds that a monk on crack can't catch.

Just earlier today it almost caused a wipe during a epic run, the mob was held but we could not catch them, then the next wave danced there way right through the disco ball. not *Saved* but danced all the way through like they were laughing at us. ( it was funny, but still) anyway It really is frustrating seeing this happen and not understand why the code can't be changed to end movement or action when X is encountered. Dev's Any chance of ever getting this corrected?

[Mastikator]

/signed
this is probably THE biggest problem I see in the game

also why oh why is every creature after level 10 faster than a hasted level 20 monk!?

[Arctigis]

To Hold and be held,
Is there any hope that we can level the playing field with this (Hold Person, Paralyzed, Disco Ball, and heck even web) When we are held, WE ARE HELD! No sliding around the dungeon at speeds that a monk on crack can't catch.

Just earlier today it almost caused a wipe during a epic run, the mob was held but we could not catch them, then the next wave danced there way right through the disco ball. not *Saved* but danced all the way through like they were laughing at us. ( it was funny, but still) anyway It really is frustrating seeing this happen and not understand why the code can't be changed to end movement or action when X is encountered. Dev's Any chance of ever getting this corrected?

And yet if a PC completes an action, such as casting a ranged spell at a target, and is CC'ed the action takes
no effect. Even if your fireball, for example, is in mid flight towards your target.

[varusso]

I also love it when a mob that is flat on its back from a trip somehow manages to launch a spell long after it is down, and well before it gets back up. My "favorite" one is when I trip them and they cast heal while staring up at the ceiling.

It irks me to no end when I set up an AOE nuke, and slap a web or dancing ball smack in the middle of it. All of the mobs run through, get hit with the CC effect and a single tick of damage -- then slide right out the other side and lose the CC effect completely (no save -- they are just out of the range of the effect, so it goes away) and now get their temporary immunity to the effect when I kite them back through it.

Seriously, fix this nonsense.

[Chai]

This is a byproduct of the U5 physics check modifications. In order to fix it they would have to reverse the order of operations for mob physics.

If a mob began an action, or the system commanded it to begin an action (even if it doesnt look like the action was physically initiated yet) the mob gets to take that full action. Just like when TWFing and your main hand hits a mob if you get an offhand proc for that main hand attack, it too is considered an action that completes "before" any other state on you can take its hold. Its also considered to be "within range" because the main attack was also "within range". Go into a module with hobgoblins and kill all but one, then try dodging their sword attacks, which have a huge wind up. If it started that wind up when you were in range, you are considered to be "in range" when the swing happens, even if you are accross the room by that time.

If a mob with archer / caster AI is about to move and you stun it, it will slide down the hall to where it was going to move to. If it was casting, the spell goes off, even if it died before that point in some cases. If you trip an ogre as its two stepping backward before its triple smash attack, then everyone runs up to beat on it, they all get triple cleave smashed, by an ogre on its back.

The lowering of the number of physics checks was done to reduce lag, but the side effect of that is immersion shattering in a game where success is based heavily on mastering moving combat and order of operations of ability use. A fix would entail reversing the rules in the code for "if action initiates, then it automatically completes full action, regardless of other circumstances" as well as the rule for "if physics check indicated [in range] at beginning of single action (which can be a multiple attack sequence) then [in range] is true for entire action."

[Sarisa]

Note that the queue'ing of actions is also what causes guards to break Fascinate.

[varusso]

nm

[Ilindith]

Happens on everything unfortunately: hold, paralyze, stun, trip, dancing balls, etc. The problem is simple really, if a mob initiated an action and gets one of these effect DURING said action, it will complete it while under the effect. It sucks, especially on short effect like stun and trip where you spend most of the timer trying to catch up to the mob just to see it stand up from your trip after you hit it one time...

Unfortunately, a simple problem doesn't always translate to a simple solution when it comes to coding.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

As well as another prime example of Turbines insistence of producing a poorly crafted product.

Manufacturer's of the TOYS that go in "Happy Meals" have higher standards of quality control and customer satisfaction than Turbine apparently does.

This will more than likely remain a F(eature) in the MOTU FR content as well that all us DUPES pre-purchased.

Thankfully there are parts of DDO that are still enjoyable.

[twiliteslayer02]

/signed, with addendum


BRING autocrits on held/paralyzed/helpless creatures and players back so that there is a difference btwn move and not able to move

[Missing_Minds]

This is a byproduct of the U5 physics check modifications. In order to fix it they would have to reverse the order of operations for mob physics.

Non engine solution: You keep the debuff on them, non countdown timer until they actually stop moving. When they actually are finally "stuck" then the timer can count down.

Doesn't effect/help the still casting mob.
"oh, but you can flinch them" Bull. By the time they flinch, game has already pre determined the spell is successful.

[Chai]

Non engine solution: You keep the debuff on them, non countdown timer until they actually stop moving. When they actually are finally "stuck" then the timer can count down.

Doesn't effect/help the still casting mob.
"oh, but you can flinch them" Bull. By the time they flinch, game has already pre determined the spell is successful.

Its still pretty immersion shattering if I stun a mob and it isnt technically stunned until 3 seconds from now because the mob has to complete its action first. Part of mastering movement based combat is timing. Interrupting spell casting is in part what stuns, trips and other tactics should be used for in the first place, in part.

The whole "mob automagically gets to do its action because it started it" is completely contradictory to how it should work, because stunning in the middle of a cast should be a good tactic. Right now we are resigned to the understanding that if the mob even began casting, the spell WILL go off. Nothing we can do about it.

[Missing_Minds]

Its still pretty immersion shattering if I stun a mob and it isnt technically stunned until 3 seconds from now because the mob has to complete its action first. Part of mastering movement based combat is timing. Interrupting spell casting is in part what stuns, trips and other tactics should be used for in the first place, in part.

I dno't argue that, but you at least get all the benifit of the debuff for the proper amount of time, and if you can hit them while they are under the effect while moving, you still get the bonus damage.

[Aliss7]

It's called True Action Combat™. Deal with it.

[Chai]

It's called True Action Combat™. Deal with it.

So its perfectly realistic that a hobgoblin moves accross the floor on its rear end looking like a cat with ringworms after being tripped, at the same movement speed it would normally run at?

[Kawai]

i luv holding and being held. Cuddles and spoonz are me favey pastime ;D.
My toon, however... she no likey }:|
/'signed, and +1
Tarelyn -Achillesia, Thelanis

[Missing_Minds]

So its perfectly realistic that a hobgoblin moves accross the floor on its rear end looking like a cat with ringworms after being tripped, at the same movement speed it would normally run at?

If you tripped it down a hill, sure!

[Aliss7]

So its perfectly realistic that a hobgoblin moves accross the floor on its rear end looking like a cat with ringworms after being tripped, at the same movement speed it would normally run at?

I was being snarky with my response. I should be more careful, sarcasm doesn't translate well to text too well.

[varusso]

I dno't argue that, but you at least get all the benifit of the debuff for the proper amount of time, and if you can hit them while they are under the effect while moving, you still get the bonus damage.

No, actually you dont get the full benefit of any part of it, since the "full benefit" would be for the mob to STAY STILL and not take any actions, thereby letting you beat on it:
1) Without having to chase it and incur a -4 penalty.
2) Not end up chasing it into a trap or other group of mobs.
3) Not having it stay in the position where you wanted it for tactical reasons (IE: in a doorway or other chokepoint, while in an AOE CC and/or damage, blocking other mobs from passing).
4) Without it finishing whatever it was you were trying to stop.

When we are held/tripped/etc. our actions are stopped RIGHT THEN (except when lag does wonky things). If you are in the middle of healing the tank and you get tripped, the tank dies. If you are in the middle of casting mass hold on a group of mobs and the mob caster holds YOU, your hold almost certainly wont go off. But you will still be docked the SP for it. If you get tripped while using a clicky, you dont get the benefit of the clicky, and it still uses a charge.

Not everything needs to be the same for mobs and players, but this is one of the things that DOES. CC effects should interrupt any action across the board, not allow the current action to finish before taking effect -- for players AND mobs.

Oh and while we're at it, change earthgrab back to the way it used to be, with FOM, WF, and PM blocking it. At the VERY least, FOM should block it, even if the immunities dont.

[Rodasch]

Its still pretty immersion shattering if I stun a mob and it isnt technically stunned until 3 seconds from now because the mob has to complete its action first. Part of mastering movement based combat is timing. Interrupting spell casting is in part what stuns, trips and other tactics should be used for in the first place, in part.

The whole "mob automagically gets to do its action because it started it" is completely contradictory to how it should work, because stunning in the middle of a cast should be a good tactic. Right now we are resigned to the understanding that if the mob even began casting, the spell WILL go off. Nothing we can do about it.

This.