8 strength

[goodspeed]

idk I always started my flesh like casters with 8 str. It can suck in the starting levels but im usually outa there and into max gear anyway. My caster has a +6 str item, a +2 tome, ship buffs, rage, and I got em 3 piece abashi set.

End game I really never even see enfeeblement cast. Usually it's that flippn 5 or 8 levels gone in a single hit drain that I worry about. Always carry a slew of restorations with ya.

[Micki]

I have never played a character with low strength before. How bad is it to have low strength? I'm about to start a human sorc, 18 con, 18 cha. I am wondering if 11 str and 17 con would make my life much easier early.

I made a wf sorcerer with 8 str some time ago. He's only lvl 7 and the only problem I've had with it, is that he can't melee, not even a little. Otherwise he pretty much kicks butt. He doesn't carry any ingredients or collectibles, since I always move any extra stuff to my capped cleric, or put them in the bank The not being able to melee was for my play style an annoyance, since my mostly played cleric has decent melee as fallback. But, this sucked less after I got the fire savant enhancement and can cast burning hands with metas for only 2 sp (so, since you generate a total of 12 sp when you're outta mana, you can still manage pretty well)

Oh, and he has/is using the full abshai set

Ran Delera chain elite with a party lvl 5-7 when Cerge was lvl 6 (last quest is lvl 10 on elite), and he did pretty well. Only died 2 times, and that was because I hasted into a trap twice (just something like btw)

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think priest mobs start casting it at ~level4. And don't stop until vale.

Well between abishai set and no tome I didn't get made helpless from enfeeblement until Wiz King when I didn't have a strength item (I got one just for that quest).

As long as you have enough strength to not be reduced to 0 (I was doing it with 8 base+4 item) then you can drink a lesser restore pot as soon as it lands, this works even if you are in undead form.

-20 HP to avoid the inconvenience of drinking a lesser restore pot in 1 quest in the game hardly seems worthwhile.

[morticianjohn]

Well between abishai set and no tome I didn't get made helpless from enfeeblement until Wiz King when I didn't have a strength item (I got one just for that quest).

As long as you have enough strength to not be reduced to 0 (I was doing it with 8 base+4 item) then you can drink a lesser restore pot as soon as it lands, this works even if you are in undead form.

-20 HP to avoid the inconvenience of drinking a lesser restore pot in 1 quest in the game hardly seems worthwhile.

I just want to point out that your experience on a PM is not equivalent to the experience of a sorc. One example is that you'll have more spell selection and slotting bull's str level 3-7 is no prob. A sorc will not likely have bull's at 3 or rage at 5 as some wizards do. In addition there are quests like temple of vol where pm's are immune to the str damage and if you use zombie form 6-12 then you have an additional str buff.

Talking about a fleshy sorc I do recommend starting with 10 or more strength.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I just want to point out that your experience on a PM is not equivalent to the experience of a sorc. One example is that you'll have more spell selection and slotting bull's str level 3-7 is no prob. A sorc will not likely have bull's at 3 or rage at 5 as some wizards do. In addition there are quests like temple of vol where pm's are immune to the str damage and if you use zombie form 6-12 then you have an additional str buff.

Talking about a fleshy sorc I do recommend starting with 10 or more strength.

Never slotted bulls strength.
Never used zombie form (was AM until 12).
Never used rage (except in parties after level 12).
Not up to vol yet (but have +6 strength item by now so no big deal on either build).

8 strength is fine.

[Nephilia]

I've done a sorc life this time with my TR toon.
I started with max cha, max cos-2 to spare 6 points, 15 str and rest in int.
I totally love it.
First 5-6 lv I was wandering around with a holy GS with a medium augment for +3 to hit and min lv 1 (ofc I master touched it).
I soloed since lv 7 quick and easy, the sword was a real meatgrinder.
More u want be exhausted.
It's true, anyway, that on a 36 build I'd a lot of useless points (starting with 18 or 16 cha on a TR toon is really not a big deal SINCE I just TR once I hit 20... this evening presumably) when on a 28-32 build u wont have so many points to spread around and u must go a lot more min-maxed.
If really really want a min-max build for end game anyway I would not put points in str.
Eventually u can think about start with some str points and then LR when u hit lv 20.

[morticianjohn]

Never slotted bulls strength.
Never used zombie form (was AM until 12).
Never used rage (except in parties after level 12).
Not up to vol yet (but have +6 strength item by now so no big deal on either build).

8 strength is fine.

Temple of vol btw if you're at 8 base +6 item and +2 tome then you're running around at 5 STR. I'm pretty sure you'll be encumbred unless (as one poster mentioned) you don't carry anything. The strength draining mobs fade in and out so it's hard to nuke them all before they hit you a few times. You can chug lesser restore pots but likely will need 4+ per each set of mobs that you fight. Not saying you can't work around low str but the tradeoff (-1 con for +3 str) is probably worth it for 1-18 purposes.

I've done both. Yes 8 str is ok but it depends on your playstyle. If you're like me then there will be times when you go from quest to quest without selling off your vendor trash. Lower str means you get encumbered easily which slows you down. I never failed a quest due to encumbrance, however, the annoyance of it is pretty high for me so I like the str points for that reason. No amount of lesser restore pots will help you with this factor. One guy mentioned that he passes all of his loot through his shared bank so he never becomes encumbered. This is a waste of time for me but if you that is your style then there is less reason to put points in strength. I run around with 16 strength on my capped wizzie and there have been times (like if I join a shroud before hitting up the vendor to sell my vendor trash) where I loot a ton of chests and find myself encumbered in part 5.

Also consider that for many players -1 constitution is not a loss of HP endgame. Even when it is a loss of HP you could technically call it a TRADE of HP for more AP (for some builds such as human) which some people would prefer anyway.

I will concede that if you can get the 20 HP more for your build at the end it can be very beneficial so I would say if you:

spend 3 weeks leveling and 3+ months at cap it might be better to take the last point of CON
spend 3 months leveling and 3 weeks capped it's probably better to take the STR

Basically, I think that you are right when you say that you can play around the strength damage in the game if you're on a low strength toon however, I've seen many good players die to sudden encumberance during dungeon alert.

[Ilindith]

I always put AT LEAST 12 str on my casters to avoid helpless situations, which happen a lot at lower levels with mobs casting ray of enfeeblement. I would gladly lower my con to 16 to avoid that.

Think I had base 14 str on the last caster life I had on my main character since I had a lot to dump with a 36point build. It serves a double purpose too. On one side it makes sure you don't become helpless from str damage, and it also helps getting through the lower levels. I pretty much go melee with master's touch and bull strength from level 1 to 6ish when you don't really have that much SP to go full caster for a whole quest.

[Lonnbeimnech]

8 base
2 tome
6 item
2 rage
2 ship buff

20 str is plenty

My wizzy started with 8, used +2 tome and have +6 item, and I still use titan gloves clicky every now and then after being enfeebled.

Lesser restore pot removes enfeeble completely, assuming you aren't at 0 str, cuz then you can't drink them.

[EatSmart]

Another consideration is the nasty combination of shadows with dispel spamming wraiths. Necro 3 is incredibly un-fun with 8 str even when you've got a few tangleroot DW clickies. More str = time to spot the dw get dispelled and/or the stuff attacking you to go poof in the firewall.

[Phidius]

Well between abishai set and no tome I didn't get made helpless from enfeeblement until Wiz King when I didn't have a strength item (I got one just for that quest).
...

Were you by any chance playing a Drow or using a Spell Resistance item (such as the Mirror Cloak)? I've noticed that the desert seems to be the point where mobs are better able to penetrate the innate Spell Resistance of a Drow PC. If the mobs can't penetrate your SR, there's no need to worry about Ray of Enfeeblement.

Hobgoblin Warmages/Witchdoctors are plentiful in mid-level quests (level 5-8), and they love their Ray's. I've run Tear with a near-perma 10 Strength penalty, and it is extremely annoying to quaff a Lesser Restore pot every 10 seconds.

It does seem to be a low-mid level issue, though - at higher levels they seem to stop casting it as much. Thank gawd...

[Sarisa]

It does seem to be a low-mid level issue, though - at higher levels they seem to stop casting it as much. Thank gawd...

Aside from eWizKing, it's rare to get both Enfeebled and Exhausted in the same quest at high levels. It's usually either one or the other (and like you said, mostly Waves of Fatigue/Exhaustion rather than Ray of Enfeeblement).

I have seen low STR (8 start+2 tome+6 item) casters get completely helpless in eWizKing due to having both Ray and Waves cast on them in a matter of a couple seconds.

[Tom_Hunters]

I have a 8 base str cleric

lvl 20 now, without +2 tome, and wears a full plate

when not wearing his +6 str item, he is often in the medium loaded state (if not heavy)
that makes him running around slower, as well as having a terrible balance/jump score

that's annoying but i am OK with that
well at my lvl i seldom get helplessness. At lower lvl a high +str item and rage/shrine is almost mandatory.

[Isharah]

If you look at it from when you're already at cap, losing points in constitution or charisma isn't worth what you'll get from a higher strength stat.

Carry a wand of bull's strength, lesser resto pots while leveling.

If you intend to just zerg through the levels and not stay at cap though, I guess putting a few points into strength makes leveling less of a hassle.

All of my casters start with 8 strength and the only one on medium encumberance is the FvS (then again she carries a couple of full plates with her all the time ).

[Sandpredator]

There is nothing wrong with an 8 str starting out. You carry lesser restore pots and get a bulls str wand to increase str by +4. So at lvl 7 you should be at a min of 16 str which is more than enough.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Were you by any chance playing a Drow or using a Spell Resistance item (such as the Mirror Cloak)? I've noticed that the desert seems to be the point where mobs are better able to penetrate the innate Spell Resistance of a Drow PC. If the mobs can't penetrate your SR, there's no need to worry about Ray of Enfeeblement.

Hobgoblin Warmages/Witchdoctors are plentiful in mid-level quests (level 5-8), and they love their Ray's. I've run Tear with a near-perma 10 Strength penalty, and it is extremely annoying to quaff a Lesser Restore pot every 10 seconds.

It does seem to be a low-mid level issue, though - at higher levels they seem to stop casting it as much. Thank gawd...

Half-elf, no SR item that I know of. Possibly I did get enfeebled but unless it makes me helpless I'm unlikely to notice as it's so simply to hit a lessor restore pot.

I've tries the high strength to melee at low levels on an arcane thing but it's a waste of time honestly. Robe of Duality and tagging acid spray and burning hands is a much faster way to get through the low levels (superior clickies too of course). Getting scorching ray is amazing too of course.

[shadowphoton]

32 point builds will solve all your problems here.

[brickwall]

I Didn't Ever Have To Make This Sorta Choice Sorc Was My 11th Life So I Had 36 Points to Build With And +3 To All Stats So my Stats Where 18 Con 16 Str & Cha Base As A Wf.

[FranOhmsford]

My Elven Wind stance Monk - Certainly not dumped str but not maxed either - constantly dropped out of stance thanks to Ray of Enfeeblement - This spell is a huge Pain in the Proverbial.

I would never recommend dumping str - I would also say that 18 con is overkill, 16 is frankly overkill too unless Dwarf / Warforged.
14 Con is the safe point for anyone else but Elves / Drow.
12 Con is acceptable on the Elven races.
Anything less is BAAAAD!

If you wish to have skill points and Str it's not too much of an issue to drop Con to 14, keep your Cha maxed and put the rest into Str and Int.

Obviously this is under the proviso that you understand Toughness is a must have feat {enhancements too} and False Life / Toughness items are also highly recommended.

[countfitz]

Once dumped Str on a Halfling Cleric. She just sits at the bank now. Mostly because she physically can't move anywhere else.

:P