Whirling Dervish

[Perryc]

Warryc
Whirling Dervish

Race: Half-Orc
Alignment: Lawful Good
Class: Paladin 12 / Monk 6 / Fighter 2
Type: 34-pt

The primary focus of this build is threat generation backed by a reasonably healthy intim. The primary source of the threat generation is a combination of the paladin's Defender of Siberys II PrE and the monk's Mountain stance. The 12 paladin and 6 monk levels are taken primarily to open up these enhancements. The 2 levels of fighter are used mostly for flavor; in this particular case, I took the Fighter Strength I enhancement and used the extra class feats to take Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery. This was primarliy to mitigate a low AC. These levels could easily be replaced with two levels of rouge, a level of rougue and another level of monk, or something else entirely.

In order to gain the advantage of the Monk's Mountain Stance as well as past life gear, this build is tilted towards the use of longswords. Again, this is somewhat of a flavor thing; this build would work just as well using unarmed combat.


Stats
Strength: 40 = [6]/16 base +3 Tome +7 Item +3 Enhancement +3 Exceptional +4 Level (4, 8, 12, 16) +4 Defensive Stance
Dexterity: 24 = [6]/14 base +4 Tome +6 Item
Constitution: 32 = [8]/14 base +3 Tome +7 Item +3 Exceptional +1 Level (20) +4 Defensive Stance
Intelligence: 15 = [6]/12 base +3 Tome
Wisdom: 20 = [0]/ 8 base +3 Tome +6 Item +1 Enhancement +3 Exceptional -1*
Charisma: 26 = [10]/14 base +3 Tome +7 Item +2 Enhancement +1 Exceptional -1*

* (Epic Ring of Baphomet: -1 Wisdom, -1 Charisma)


Feats
1) Monk (Skill Focus: Intimidate, Toughness)
2) Fighter (Shield Mastery)
3) Monk (Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons, Whirling Steel Strike)
4) Paladin
5) Paladin
6) Paladin (Two Weapon Fighting)
7) Paladin
8) Paladin
9) Paladin (Oversized Two Weapon Fighting)
10) Monk (Path of Harmonious Balance)
11) Monk
12) Monk (Improved Two Weapon Fighting)
13) Monk (Power Attack)
14) Paladin
15) Fighter (Improved Shield Mastery)
16) Paladin
17) Paladin
18) Ranger (Greater Two Weapon Fighting)
19) Paladin
20) Paladin


Enhancements
2 Adept of Rock
2 Fighter Strength I
2 Follower of the Sovereign Host
4 Improved Intimidate IV
2 Monk Improved Recovery I
2 Monk Wisdom I
10 Orcish Brute Fighting IV
3 Orcish Power Attack II
6 Orcish Strength II
1 Paladin Armor Class Boost I
6 Paladin Bulwark of Good III
6 Paladin Charisma II
1 Paladin Courage of Good I
6 Paladin Defender of Siberys II
3 Paladin Divine Might II
1 Paladin Divine Righteousness I
1 Paladin Focus of Good I
6 Paladin Resistance of Good III
10 Paladin Toughness IV
3 Racial Toughness II
3 Way of the Tenacious Badger II


Gear

Helemt: Greensteel (Min II/45 HP)
Necklace: Epic Hyena Claw Necklace (+1 Ex. Con)
Goggles: Epic Raven's Sight
Trinket: Epic Gem of Many Facets ()
Cloak: Epic Cloak of the Silver Concord (+1 Ex. Cha)
Belt: Epic Belt of the Mroranan (Greater False Life)
Gloves: Epic Gloves of the Claw
Bracers: Epic Jidz Tet-ka (+6 Wisdom, +6 Dexterity)
Ring: Epic Ring of Baphomet (+1 Ex. Str)
Ring: Circle of Hatred (upgraded)
Boots: Epic Boots of the Mire
Armor: Dragontouched (Incite x3)

Situational Gear

Goggles: Greensteel (+6 Cha Skills)
Trinket: Epic Brawn's Spirits (+2 Luck)


Vitals

Hit Points: 615 (707)
20 Heroic Durability
120 Paladin 12
48 Monk 6
20 Fighter 2
220 Constitution
22 Toughness
40 Paladin Toughness
20 Racial Toughness
30 Greater False Life
20 Toughness (Item)
10 Draconic Vitality
45 Greensteel HP Item


AC: N/A

NOTE: AC was not a major consideration of this build.


Threat (Multiplier: 3.4 centered or 3.5 using shield)
100 Base
10 Dragontouched Armor (Tier 1)
15 Dragontouched Armor (Tier 2)
20 Dragontouched Armor (Tier 3)
25 Orcish Brute Fighting IV
30 Circle of Hatred (upgraded)
40 Mountain Stance, or
50 Improved Defensive Stance (DoS II)
100 Paladin Divine Righteousness

NOTE: The threat multiplier calculation used is (100 + 10 + 15 + 20 + 25 + 30 + 40 + 50 + 100).


Saves
Fortitude/Reflex/Will
48/ 37/ 37
8/ 4/ 4 Paladin
5/ 5/ 5 Monk
3/ 0/ 0 Artificer
11/ 7/ 5 Ability Modifier
5/ 5/ 5 Resistance Item
8/ 8/ 8 Paladin Aura
3/ 3/ 3 Paladin Resistance of Good III
2/ 2/ 2 Luck
1/ 1/ 1 Resistance Ritual
0/ 0/ 2 Epic Jidz-Tet'ka


Skills:
Balance: ~36
Concentration: ~30
Intimidate: ~70**
Jump: ~43*
Tumble: ~36
Use Magic Dev: ~30**

*Skills with 12-18 skill points
**Skills with max skill points

[wax_on_wax_off]

Don't see any synergy here. If you want a tank then go 12 monk/6 fighter or paladin/2 fighter or paladin or artificer.

Longswords are rubbish DPS and shield mastery makes all your efforts to be centered with longswords a waste.

12 paladin is a very mediocre level, 6 paladin gives most of everything that you want while 14 paladin gives Zeal.

[Perryc]

Don't see any synergy here.

A wise man once said, "if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail". I gave you more credit for imagination and nuance. A (main) tank does not need to dish out the most damage; it needs to get and hold aggro. This build does that. In spades.

There are a lot of things about this build that don't suggest a lot of synergy. For example, going with TWF instead of THF on a Half-Orc. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. And if someone prefers something a little more conventional, I did state that the two fighter levels could easily be replaced with something else. As you pointed out, two more levels of Paladin would give Zeal. I also stated that the build could also easily be adapted to use handwraps.

[Malky]

Threat (Multiplier: 10.4)
10 Dragontouched Armor (Tier 1)
15 Dragontouched Armor (Tier 2)
20 Dragontouched Armor (Tier 3)
25 Orcish Brute Fighting IV
30 Circle of Hatred (upgraded)
40 Mountain Stance
50 Improved Defensive Stance (DoS II)
100 Paladin Divine Righteousness

NOTE: The threat multiplier calculation used is (1.1 x 1.15 x 1.2 x 1.25 x 1.3 x 1.4 x 1.5 x 2).

Afaik the threat stack additively, so +290% in that case, or a multiplier of 3.9 which is plenty for a hate tank without shield.
With the shield equipped you'll loose the earth stance modifier, but your defender stance modifier will be higher.

[wax_on_wax_off]

A wise man once said, "if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail". I gave you more credit for imagination and nuance. A (main) tank does not need to dish out the most damage; it needs to get and hold aggro. This build does that. In spades.

There are a lot of things about this build that don't suggest a lot of synergy. For example, going with TWF instead of THF on a Half-Orc. That doesn't mean it doesn't work. And if someone prefers something a little more conventional, I did state that the two fighter levels could easily be replaced with something else. As you pointed out, two more levels of Paladin would give Zeal. I also stated that the build could also easily be adapted to use handwraps.

Issues:

• You don't have a lot of healing amp. 1.1*1.3=1.43 (143%) when tanking in earth stance or with a shield does not make a good tank.
• You've wasted a slot on your DT, you get 20% incite from claw set already, you don't need to have it on DT as well, if you have it there to break set with brawns spirits then you don't need 10% ...
• 700 HP isn't a lot of HP for a low amp, no AC tank except in easy content
• You state factually the formula for hate but there is no confirmation about how it is formulated.
• Even with your hate generation I still see the possibility to have issues holding aggro, multiplying such a small DPS number (which is what longswords will give you) is going to cause issues.
• Need another 10 or so intimidate to get to the elite/epic numbers

What I see is a low DPS, low amp, no AC, low HP build with limited versatility outside of tanking roles and limited ability in ...

You could change a lot of things to make the build more viable but you haven't so I've appraised it for what it is, 12 paladin is not a worthwhile investment by any stretch of the imagination compared to the alternatives.

I'd have preferred to have relied on my imagination for this one.

[Perryc]

Afaik the threat stack additively, so +290% in that case, or a multiplier of 3.9 which is plenty for a hate tank without shield.
With the shield equipped you'll loose the earth stance modifier, but your defender stance modifier will be higher.

Actually, I do believe you are correct. With a little help, I was able to dig up this thread regarding threat: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...0&postcount=23.

[Perryc]

Issues:

• You don't have a lot of healing amp. 1.1*1.3=1.43 (143%) when tanking in earth stance or with a shield does not make a good tank.
• You've wasted a slot on your DT, you get 20% incite from claw set already, you don't need to have it on DT as well, if you have it there to break set with brawns spirits then you don't need 10% ...
• 700 HP isn't a lot of HP for a low amp, no AC tank except in easy content
• You state factually the formula for hate but there is no confirmation about how it is formulated.
• Even with your hate generation I still see the possibility to have issues holding aggro, multiplying such a small DPS number (which is what longswords will give you) is going to cause issues.
• Need another 10 or so intimidate to get to the elite/epic numbers

Warmer.

• Healing Amp is a little low given the OP. I had originally tried to slot Levik's bracers and the Levik's sovereign rune on the DT armor. That would have added 20% to the healing amp. Unfortunately, it would not have affected threat and it would have required finding another way to slot Wisdom and Dexterity. With the Jidz-Tet'ka slotted, switching from Mountain to Sun stance would add 25% healing amp albeit at the cost of 40% threat. A 10/20/30 healing amp Greensteel weapon is also an option.
• Hit Points are a little low given the OP. I was a little concerned with the damage output when so I leaned more towards Strength than Constitution. By changing a couple of level ups around, it is possible to get another 40 HP pretty easily. Of course, buffs can also add at least another 60+ HPs.
• The Intimidate score is a shade low for eLoB, even with buffs and the epic Brawn's Spirits. For most other content, however, it is more than sufficient.
• Getting and holding aggro is not an issue. This build was adapted from a previous life and lessons learned along the way.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Warmer.

• Healing Amp is a little low given the OP. I had originally tried to slot Levik's bracers and the Levik's sovereign rune on the DT armor. That would have added 20% to the healing amp. Unfortunately, it would not have affected threat and it would have required finding another way to slot Wisdom and Dexterity. With the Jidz-Tet'ka slotted, switching from Mountain to Sun stance would add 25% healing amp albeit at the cost of 40% threat. A 10/20/30 healing amp Greensteel weapon is also an option.
• Hit Points are a little low given the OP. I was a little concerned with the damage output when so I leaned more towards Strength than Constitution. By changing a couple of level ups around, it is possible to get another 40 HP pretty easily. Of course, buffs can also add at least another 60+ HPs.
• The Intimidate score is a shade low for eLoB, even with buffs and the epic Brawn's Spirits. For most other content, however, it is more than sufficient.
• Getting and holding aggro is not an issue. This build was adapted from a previous life and lessons learned along the way.

Taking build points out of strength and into con for more HP won't end well.
Trying to tank with 0 damage mitigation in fire stance won't end well.
You lack intimidate for the 3 raids where it really matters (elite hound, elite/epic LoB/edq2)

This is not a good tank build, it is not a good DPS build (I'd only believe that you'll have no issues holding aggro if you show me DPS figures to support it), this build has very limited contribution to a group outside of tanking.

[Perryc]

Why do you insist on trying to compare this to an end-game tank? At no point did I state or imply that that was it's intent.

[Zio_Kose]

I dont undestand if u tank with shield or with 2 longsword, if u use shield cant stay in Earth Stance (for threat and DR) or in Fire Stance (for HA with Jidz-Tet'ka), if u dont use shield dont have all extra threat from PrE.

So u can remove Shiled Mastery and I. Shield Mastery for I. Critical for example.

U say can use GS Longsword with HA but will do 0 dps with that, so will lose aggro.

For HA is good +20% TOD Ring, +30% Gloves of the Claw

For Threat is good +15% Defender of Siberys or Stalwart Defender TOD Set, + 20% Claw Set, + 10% Epic Brawn Spirit

This build with Shield have no sense wastes your 6 monk lv, HW are better.

IF u will drop STR for CON will see many miss when tanking.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Why do you insist on trying to compare this to an end-game tank? At no point did I state or imply that that was it's intent.

I wasn't just comparing it to and end game tank, I was also making comments to its relative lack of contribution to regular parties as well.

[Perryc]

[... snip ...] if u dont use shield dont have all extra threat from PrE. [... snip ...]

This.

Despite all of the trolling that some people do, especially in build threads, occasionally someone will discover a genuine flaw. It is for this reason, that I post a build and sort through the chaff.

You are exactly right, the 50% hate from the DoS II PrE and the 40% from Mountain Stance are exclusive. One requires the use of a shield which causes the build to become uncentered. I missed this requirement when doing my research.

+1 rep and thank-you.

[wax_on_wax_off]

This.

Despite all of the trolling that some people do, especially in build threads, occasionally someone will discover a genuine flaw. It is for this reason, that I post a build and sort through the chaff.

You are exactly right, the 50% hate from the DoS II PrE and the 40% from Mountain Stance are exclusive. One requires the use of a shield which causes the build to become uncentered. I missed this requirement when doing my research.

+1 rep and thank-you.

Not sure but I remember reading that DoSII bonus is sacred and so is divine righteousness (so they don't stack).

[Malky]

Not sure but I remember reading that DoSII bonus is sacred and so is divine righteousness (so they don't stack).

Hmm interesting point, my pallymonk tank is finishing a TR atm but i'll try to test that. Divine righteousness is +100% sacred bonus to melee+spells, 3rd stance is 75% sacred bonus to melee only. Dunno if the difference (melee vs melee+spells) can make them stack.

For divine righteousness it's even more vague since the description says :

"Activate this ability to gain a double sacred bonus to the hate generated by your melee attacks and spells for 60 seconds"

Eladrin states in the post linked above that threat :

"Exactly identical effects don't stack with themselves in DDO. I'd have to check to see how all of the items are set up - I think that we've set most of them up as unique effects."


Any dev word on this ?


Edit: tested, they don't stack. After going into stance i've clicked rigtheousness and...

(Effects): You have multiple effects granting a Sacred bonus to Melee Threat Generation that do not stack. ( Improved Defensive Stance and Divine Righteousness )
(Effects): --- Sacred modifier to Melee Threat Generation: +1
(Effects): You benefit from your Divine Righteousness.
(Effects): --- Competence modifier to Spell Threat Generation: +1

oO why is the spell bonus part 'competence' ?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Hmm interesting point, my pallymonk tank is finishing a TR atm but i'll try to test that. Divine righteousness is +100% sacred bonus to melee+spells, 3rd stance is 75% sacred bonus to melee only. Dunno if the difference (melee vs melee+spells) can make them stack.

For divine righteousness it's even more vague since the description says :

"Activate this ability to gain a double sacred bonus to the hate generated by your melee attacks and spells for 60 seconds"

Eladrin states in the post linked above that threat :

"Exactly identical effects don't stack with themselves in DDO. I'd have to check to see how all of the items are set up - I think that we've set most of them up as unique effects."


Any dev word on this ?


Edit: tested, they don't stack. After going into stance i've clicked rigtheousness and...

(Effects): You have multiple effects granting a Sacred bonus to Melee Threat Generation that do not stack. ( Improved Defensive Stance and Divine Righteousness )
(Effects): --- Sacred modifier to Melee Threat Generation: +1
(Effects): You benefit from your Divine Righteousness.
(Effects): --- Competence modifier to Spell Threat Generation: +1

oO why is the spell bonus part 'competence' ?

Thanks for looking into that.

[WruntJunior]

I have to say, you have an extreme amount of gear on this build to make it solidly mediocre. If you want to tank, I'd recommend either going sword and board (and giving up monk levels) or going unarmed (and going more monk than paladin...preferably 12 monk 6 paladin) for better damage mitigation from earth stance. Otherwise, if you don't want to tank, you'd be better off forgoing any feat/enhancements/gear aimed directly at tanking (circle of hatred, for example)....instead, if you'd like to keep whirling steel strike, enhancing your survival side (while possibly working to gain AC as well) would be good...for example, hunter of the dead 2/shintao 1. That sort of build would also make a rather good debuffer for certain raids (eLoB, for example), as you're likely to be able to make sure you stay alive, and wouldn't really be at any risk of taking the aggro.

The way you have the build in the OP, though...even if you manage to get aggro for tanking anything (especially any raid boss), your best means of damage mitigation makes it rather difficult for you to hold aggro (wielding a single weapon with a shield). Overall, there's just way too much nice gear here that still makes the build only alright...and with that much gear, ANY build is at least alright. The best thing to do is to identify what you want and work from their for designing your toon: do you want to be a tank? If yes, then don't go half-way with your build...if not, don't build a half-tank.

(Personally, what I'd do is 12 monk 6 paladin 2 fighter unarmed tank...good HP, high threat, high AC potential (90s or higher), decent damage mitigation potential (shadow fade + earth stance 3).)

[Malky]

Btw the ingame description of divine rigtheousness says :

"100% competence bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks and spells for 60 seconds"

Okay for spells, but shouldn't melee threat be changed to competence then ?

[Perryc]

An observation about Effects, the incite bonus from the Circle of Hatred does not show up in Effects, even with no other gear slotted. Tested with a non-upgraded ring with +20% incite and an upgraded ring with +30%.

(Effects): You benefit from your Circle of Hatred.
(Effects): --- Competence modifier to Intimidate Skill: +15
(Effects): You benefit from your Circle of Hatred.
(Effects): --- Enhancement modifier to Reflex Saving Throws: +5
(Effects): You benefit from your Circle of Hatred.
(Effects): --- Enhancement modifier to Fortitude Saving Throws: +5
(Effects): You benefit from your Circle of Hatred.
(Effects): --- Enhancement modifier to Will Saving Throws: +5

Also, for what it's worth, the Stalwart II defensive stance bonus to threat and Divine Righteousness do stack. This makes sense as they are different bonuses (competence vs. sacred); although it is disappointing that different Paladin PrEs don't stack.

[Malky]

All the item-based bonuses don't seem to show in the effects channel. The extra bonus you get from the stance when having a shield equipped doesn't show as well.