"Useless" Extend

[AirbornedChild]

Why most of players think that every bard must have Extend? it doesn't affect offensive spells. An by my expirience it is necessary only in ToD. In all other raids you can just cast Haste/Rage again.

Pay attention that i'm saying about pure 20 bardso I advice WC with 14 bard levels to take it/ They need it. Pure bard can just recast buffs. Also, it is enough SP even in epic raids to maintane Displacement/Haste/Rage on you raid's members.

I have ~1200 SP with Wizardry VI. And it is enough for all raids.

Just think.

You take one feat for 3 spells. It is like to take this feat on FvS/Cleric. It doesn't attect offensive spells!

If it did i'd take it but i'll not take one feat fow few spells.

And people who said that this feat is must have for bard have successful raids with me. Rofl, if this feat was musthave for bard we would fail. But we were successful.

Don't blame. I tryed with it and tryed without it. And I decided to cast twice and save one feat. However I have many SP even after comleting raid.

If you think that bard must have this feat, prove your opinion by facts. I said about tod. Tell me about other raids(not regular epic dungeons).

Without your proving it will be just trolling and hating.

PS I'm not afraid. I can handle CC even versus epic drow(SS cannot).

[Varashad]

If not Extend, then what are you going to take? It makes your buffs twice as long; for short term buffs like Displacement, its cheaper to Extend it than to re-cast it. Sooo yeah. It's a good investment imo. If you don't like it, good for you, don't take it. No arcane I ever roll will not have Extend.

[Anthios888]

I guess people take plenty of stupid stuff on their characters, so at least extend is not the worst. I mean, it's a pretty nice feat, but I would always get my damage up first.

I really agree with you, though. As far as a "must have," I think this feat is often overrated by the forum community. For example, splashing a level or whatever on your dps warchanter just to get extend is sort of silly, since you're losing like half of the benefit of being warchanter when you are dropping hit/damage party buff. Yet you see people doing this all the time, and having sub-optimal songs without much substantive gain.

I'd always take the ability to heal, even as an off-spec.

I've played a ton of bard builds. Here's how I see it.

caster focus:
maximize > quicken > past life: wizard > greater spell focus enchantment > spell penetration > extend

healing focus:
maximize > quicken > extend probably -

Here, it's just more convenient and powerful than any mental toughness or whatever.
If I was making this build, I would probably think about going with more of a caster focus because you can do both perfectly well. I do have it on the Classic Rocker instead of the base Two Handed Fighting feat. (1) it's a starter template build, and Extend is a nice feat to have if you're new to bards; (2) I don't typically take Two Handed Fighting unless I get all three, because Greater Two Handed Fighting adds another glancing blow on your third swing. If I had a Marilith Chain (+10 Sunder DC) Classic Rocker, I'd probably swap for Improved Sunder.

melee focus:
improved critical, power attack, weapon focus (for warchanter) > greater two handed / two weapon fighting > khopesh > maximize > quicken > past lifealadin/rogue > improved sunder > stunning blow > extend

So in other words, on a build like This, I'd take 13 feats before extend. Oh if only I had 13 feats!

I guess I did take extend on a 9 bard / 8 kensei / 3 rogue build to have a similar haste/displacement as a 20 bard! But there was no feasible quicken/maximize there.

[Anthios888]

p.s. I love rants like this

[AirbornedChild]

Yes. It is that I told about. Extend is just optional feat. It should be taken by splash bard but it is better to take highten(+2 DC for sphere) instead for pure. And pure bard is better as CC. SS or Virtuoso - it doesn't matter.

[Anthios888]

Yes. It is that I told about. Extend is just optional feat. It should be taken by splash bard but it is better to take highten(+2 DC for sphere) instead for pure. And pure bard is better as CC. SS or Virtuoso - it doesn't matter.

Explain the last sentence?

[sweez]

It's a great feat for lazy people, but I agree - if you run out of SP because you had to cast haste/rage/displacement on people so many times, you were probably doomed to fail to begin with.

[Therrias]

The people that think that bards "must" have extend spell are the people who think that bards are only good for buffing.

[Kmnh]

I have extend on my bard and I don't see what feat I would drop it for. Maybe Stunning Blow?

I do have 2 more feats than a pure bard would, because of the 2 ftr splash, but still...

[WruntJunior]

Only characters I like extend on are pale masters...unextended death aura is just annoying. Anything else can be maintained (outside of haste during horoth...but even that can be maintained if you pay attention...after banishment, there's around a minute to cast haste without any risk). Outside of that, you'll probably run out of bard songs before you run out of spell points (eLoB, for example, has that risk). Extend IS nice for buffs, though....but I would never, ever say it's necessary.

[maddmatt70]

Show me the bard player without extend that keeps displacement, haste, and rage on the other players. I have not seen it. That is why extend is valuable because 99% of the players in this game are not disciplined enough to cast buffs every two minutes much less 4 minutes. If you want to be about your own dps haha then play a dps class bards are about maximizing the dps in others.

[maddmatt70]

The people that think that bards "must" have extend spell are the people who think that bards are only good for buffing.

Yeah so your saying they should not buff, or that bards can insta kill mobs, or that that bards do solid area of effect dps or that bards do great personal dps. Really bards best feature is buffing so if a player can not keep buffs on others then forget it.

[BoBoDaClown]

I know I'd struggle to keep displace up, while also singing, healing, CCing, raging and hasting, without extend.

[goodspeed]

I have it on my bard but theirs a reason. He's a warchanter splash and he's got a 2 handed falchon.

As far as casting displace repeatedly on the sponges... hell no. Thats 30 bucks a pop sucka. You wanna be more then blured? Then I suggest you get that lazy cheap (edit here) and make those gs clickies like all my others have.

Rage I don't even use. I have a stack of 100 pots. minute half. Haste I use sometimes in situations but usually he's got melee alacrity like my other alts. Saves sp, swings pretty much as fast.

I don't expect any more of any of the group then I would or have achieved as a first life myself. If theirs a set of wings by ur name I expect the world and more because I would of me. Now theirs others that feel opposed to this. Hey that's fine. Theirs a box a few more down, go apply cause I don't have mind to keep watch over some other humans ai.

Now as a spellsinger, no way. Could be well better spent on some other thing. It's not like wizards can't just outpreform like no tomarrow. Hell sorc's can as well with some gear. Spell man needs every feat he can get.

[Therrias]

Yeah so your saying they should not buff, or that bards can insta kill mobs, or that that bards do solid area of effect dps or that bards do great personal dps. Really bards best feature is buffing so if a player can not keep buffs on others then forget it.

I didn't say any of those things. Did you read my post before you quoted it?

[learst]

Show me the bard player without extend that keeps displacement, haste, and rage on the other players. I have not seen it. That is why extend is valuable because 99% of the players in this game are not disciplined enough to cast buffs every two minutes much less 4 minutes. If you want to be about your own dps haha then play a dps class bards are about maximizing the dps in others.

Not to put it as harsh as madmatt's words, but I agree with the overall point of this post - Bards are considered 'support class'. Whether it's the player behind the bard or the majority expectation of the player community, a bard is always looked at "how much can he help others?" and not himself.

By that line, extend is usually expected of bards. Since bards don't DPS as much as melee (generally speaking, not including madmatt and the other top players) and casters, a bard is expected to have it "all" when it comes to buffing others.

[karl_k0ch]

I consider Extend to be a convenience feat. I play mainly splashed Bards, and I don't want to offer a shorter haste than the Sorc does.

As one cannot simply walk into the Tower of Despair and rebuff Haste, there is at least one raid where the buff duration is not a mere convenience.

[sweez]

I consider Extend to be a convenience feat. I play mainly splashed Bards, and I don't want to offer a shorter haste than the Sorc does.

As one cannot simply walk into the Tower of Despair and rebuff Haste, there is at least one raid where the buff duration is not a mere convenience.

Anyway, it's pretty easy to rebuff haste in ToD since banishment is on a what, 1 minute timer? When I tank Horoth I always refresh haste/madstone/cloudkill (if the arcane is lazy) on myself after a banishment, never had any issues with it.

[Infant]

Can you keep Haste/Diplacement/Rage on the party non-stop in every combat situation? And don't forget to recast it BEFORE it runs out? Then yes, feel free to drop Extend. Fact is, most bards can't. 9/10 bards I run with in epics forget to recast Haste/Diplacement.

As to the people who say "I don't cast Displacement on others, drink a Rage pot, Haste comes in clickies" -- One of my jobs as a bard is to save some SP for the other arcanes (rather irrelevant, as SP are non-issue) AND to free up some time/cooldowns on their spell rotations (then I can swing my eSoS with three piece abishai set for good DPS). So if you don't cast these basic spells on a bard, sorry but you are playing your bard poorly.

As to the PrE discussion -- Virtuosos can be nice, but mostly for soloing, since people aren't ready to wait for things being fascinated. And in spots where song CC shines (epic drow), any bard can handle it aswell, so overall I would say Virtuoso comes out behind SS/WC. That's not mentioning that overwriting SS spellpoint song with the Sustaining Song is almost criminal (unfortunately, that's what almost all Virtuosos seem to do when SS and Virt are in a group).

Infant

[karl_k0ch]

Anyway, it's pretty easy to rebuff haste in ToD since banishment is on a what, 1 minute timer? When I tank Horoth I always refresh haste/madstone/cloudkill (if the arcane is lazy) on myself after a banishment, never had any issues with it.

Actually. How do I spot a banishment?

I only ran ToD with my boots on, and this is still a thing I need to learn.