Epic Destinies

[Calozz78]

I agree, there should be no penalty for level 20's grouping with 25's in epic content. It will be tough for a new lvl 20 to grp with friends if this is not implemented. Imagine having to find a grp in couple months after release for Epic Elite Lob 20-22 pls for max xp

[Epicstorms]

I somewhere read that the current epics will have a casual, normal, hard & elite option.
Also said that the current difficulty will be somewhere between hard & elite.

Could you please make this between normal & hard?

Making normal slightly easier than epics are now, and making elite truely 'epic' ?
Epics should be difficult to beat.

[DeathsApprentice]

Oh the answer is simple, grinding all the content at 25 is way more enjoyable than grinding them at 21, 22, or 23.

I can't wrap my head around this point myself, either.
That sounds exactly like saying that heroic level content is better grinded at 20 than on the way up.
Which, perhaps, but as game-breaking as that concept is, doesn't that diminish the validity of your points on epic leveling?

The Epic Destinies Xp is counted separately from the Epic Level Xp. When you start a new Epic Destiny tree, you start at 0 Xp in that tree and you get an amount of Xp for it as you do Epic quests. This amount is the same whether you're lvl 21 or lvl 25.
Obviously, a character is going to be more powerful at lvl 25. Hence, the grind for Epic Destinies Xp is going to be faster / less painful / more fun.

About the TR'ing vs Endgame: What benefits do you get from non-active trees? I mean, suppose an arcane tree gives the following ability: "From now on, you have 100 extra sp whenever you are epic level". This could balance the power between TR'ing characters and Endgame characters somewhat because the benefits are equal for both. This makes the relative difference between the two smaller.

[Ninety]

Are epic Destinies == epic levels?

or can I multiclass the last 5 levels? ie barb 20/fighter 5 so I can keep the cap stone? or will capstone change to level 25 of each class?

or is it barb 20 +5 (unassigned) levels worth of epic destinies?

[Calebro]

Are epic Destinies == epic levels?

or can I multiclass the last 5 levels? ie barb 20/fighter 5 so I can keep the cap stone? or will capstone change to level 25 of each class?

or is it barb 20 +5 (unassigned) levels worth of epic destinies?

Epic Destinies =/= Epic Levels. We're getting Epic levels, but the two are different.
Epic levels (21-25) will not be class chosen like levels 1-20 are now, so 20 barb / 5 fighter would not be possible.
A level 25 wiz/rogue would look like: 18 wizard / 2 rogue / 5 magister
Consider the Epic Destinies as interchangable classes in and of themselves, separate from normal classes and normal class levels.

[Calebro]

And to all the people claiming that there isn't a "carrot" for level 25:
I see lots of people saying that you can just grind all of the Epic Destinies all at once, and then when you TR and hit level 20 again you already have them.
This is correct, but it's also incomplete.
While you do certainly already "own" the abilities, many of those abilities are tied to level. So while you may hypothetically have all ten Epic Destinies maxed out as soon as you hit level 20, many (even most) of those abilities will be locked out to you until you attain the appropriate level for them.

Consider a Ranger that TRs to Ranger again. He already had TWF, ITWF, GTWF, evasion, IPS, etc etc etc. Just because he "has them" doesn't mean they're available at level 1.
Many of the Epic Destiny abilities are level gated, so just having the Destiny maxed out doesn't mean there is no carrot. You still need to get to the level to unlock them.
Gaining that level and unlocking them is the carrot. As a bonus, you can level up a different Destiny while you're gaining the XP to unlock the one(s) you already have, opening up more options overall.

Edit:
Would you prefer the system as described now, or would you prefer to have TR requirements changed to level 25 (which will be the new cap)?
Food for thought.

[MadFloyd]

Some thoughts and concerns based on what I'm reading so far.


This post...


combined with this post...


combined with this post makes me rather scared. Obviously you feel keeping the Destiny unlocks and having to re-grind 21-25 is fine. The reasoning cited is that its no big deal because you can continue to unlock Destinies.

However, that's not the whole of it. The destinies require levels 21-25 to use, and having to re-earn them to use what you've already unlocked is just added grind. Yes, I realize that's the same as TR-ing now. However, what it does mean is that anyone happy using one Destiny (or, like me, having multiple characters and realizing its more plausible to unlock one per guy instead of all per guy) is best off doing all their TRs first. While you could unlock more Destinies, you may not want or need to, making it shorter, in the end, to do all the TRs up front and just do 21-25 once.

It gets compounded when you consider that as future classes are added, people who want to rework builds, maintain completionist, or the other plethora of options may wind up having to add some amount of grinding to their cycle.

This last part really begs the question "how much more xp are the 21-25 levels going to take" in reference to the first quote. Or, worded another way, when you say they will take "a lot more XP than heroic levels" do you mean first life heroic levels? 36pt heroic levels? I understand you cannot give specifics, and even if you could its still subject to change. But clarifying exactly what kind of scale is involved would be nice. Knowing that its like 19-20 on a first life guy, or like 19-20 on a third life guy, is a rather large change in what you're implying here.


This post...


combined with this is kind of flawed logic. Please, I don't mean that bad, but in a way it is. Allow me to explain.

Currently, at level 20, we don't earn any xp. But currently, we also don't have 21-25 content. Comparing now to then isn't really a parallel comparison, so let's stick to just how it will (from what we've been told) be then.

In the expansion, we can level from 21-25, unlock Destinies, and then use them. From what has been stated, they will have required levels (some abilities require 23 or 25 or whatever) and that at the top (ie 25) there will be a capstone-like ability. If we TR, we keep the Destiny unlocks, but will still need to re-level to use them.

That doesn't really parallel experience, it parallels gear. Consider Epic Gear currently. If you TR, you keep your epic gear, and have to relevel to 20 to use it. And once you do, yay, you are way better than you were at 19 because all the cool stuff you've unlocked is suddenly usable.

Looking again at Destinies, you're basically saying that we keep the progress, but we still have to level to use it. And during that leveling, we will be weaker than we were before, because we can't use it. The fact it's there isn't relevant, it still can't be used.

It's going to be harder to re-level (while farming more Destinies xp along the way) than it would be to just stay 25 (and farming more Destinies xp anyhow) while using all your cool stuff.

That is added TR-grind. That's exactly what it is. That you might earn something else along the way (a piece of loot, some destiny xp, whatever) doesn't make it not-grinding. If you reach 25, and need to TR for whatever reason (which the game continues to encourage more, and for completionists its potentially mandatory) the road back to the top just got longer. Earning something along the ride does not remove the ride from the equation. It may make it more palatable, or more efficient, or make it a bit less overhead since you might xp anyhow, but at the end of the day you'd be xping faster if you were 25 using all your cool abilities.

I am not saying that the way you have implemented things (as of the revealed information anyhow) is bad. Or that it is wrong. Or even that it needs changing ("need" being factual, versus "should" as an opinion). Only that, justifications or side benefits aside, it still is what it is: longer TR road.


This is not the point I would take away from anything. There already is a carrot at 25, in that you can finally use what you've unlocked again (like gear, destinies again become usable). Rather, I would suggest altering those requirements to be a bit more fluid. Doing this would appease both sides I think.

Maybe make the 21-25 requirements like Enhancement requirements, in that you have to meet them to unlock the ability. Thus, everything that happens on your first time through 21-25, and the first time through any given destiny, happens exactly as described.

However, should you TR, the requirements on destinies you keep are instead treated like Past Lives. Once you hit 21, they all open up. This lets you go right back to where you were, more or less, at 25 previously. If you select your maxxed out Destiny, you won't be leveling up a new one while you redo 21-25, but you also won't be significantly handicapped while doing it (beyond the usual stat/feat/etc gains for the raw levels, but it takes the destiny "redoing it for a TR" sting away). If you instead select a new destiny, you can level it concurrently while you work back up, going slower but getting more for your time.

In other words, once you unlock a destiny, have it default the requirements to just a generic "level 21: unlocked" instead of whatever it might have been originally (like "level 23 and improved power attack: unlock").

This gives people who choose, or are "forced" to (completionists, or future changes which may essentially force a redo to remain competitive) a palatable alternative short cut back to playing how they would have at 25, and keeping up with their level 25 friends, without having to redo a grind described so far as "much more xp than heroic levels" which is then coming across as somewhat justified on the dev end because it levels two things at once.

I hope all of this is taken as the constructive criticism it's meant to be, and not an attack on the Destiny system (which is, at least in theory, something I find very appealing. Those lv25 active abilities need work for sure, but that's what this is for). I think the issues stem from there being a rather large and unavoidable "penalty" essentially being added onto the current TR system: if you TR, you're going to need to redo 25 levels instead of 20, and that's longer. Earning something else while you do it is no different than getting xp while farming challenge parts... its still a farm, and doing two things at once doesn't make the real time spent any shorter, nor should it justify the number of parts needed being higher since you're doing two things at once.

Maybe in the end, something even more extreme might need to change, like it just saves your 21-25 progress in total, not just your destinies, and once you hit 20 you hail a guy and leap back to 23.5 or whatever where you left off. But I think making your previously unlocked stuff usable while you relevel is probably enough. Thanks for reading, cheers.

This is the textbook example of a constructive post. Thank you for taking the time to write this.

[MadFloyd]

Considering how powerful these epic things sound...and how they're limiting Twists of Fate...I don't know how balanced that would be.


And honestly, you are getting something for regrinding through levels 20-25. You're still earning bunches of epic destiny xp. Sure, some time was wasted on those levels from 1-20, but that's time that went to making your base character better. And you'll still be in a good place to raid once you're level 20 I bet. (Of course I forget how elitist people can be in this game)

Yeah, with as many classes as we have, there would be a balance problem here.

[MadFloyd]

Ive seen afew people suggest "having an epic alt", originally I thought when the expansion hits I will grind out the epic lvls on my monk, but I realised that would be a complete waste of time too, because when the enhancment update comes (its not comming with the xpack remember) I will probably have to TR it again (and probably all my characters) along with ALOT of other people.

edit: lol oradafu beat me to it by seconds

Probably just me, but I'm not understanding your reasoning. If you hit level 25 now and we release the new enhancements later, why does that require you to TR again? I could understand if you said LR, but TR I don't get.

[Calebro]

Probably just me, but I'm not understanding your reasoning. If you hit level 25 now and we release the new enhancements later, why does that require you to TR again? I could understand if you said LR, but TR I don't get.

Many people are assuming that their builds will become broken beyond repair, or that (a) different build(s) will be far more powerful. With that assumption comes the assumption that a TR will be "necessary" in their minds.

[EatSmart]

Probably just me, but I'm not understanding your reasoning. If you hit level 25 now and we release the new enhancements later, why does that require you to TR again? I could understand if you said LR, but TR I don't get.

Major system tweaks have a habit of breaking build concepts. For example the solar phoenix became a lot less fun to play when healing ki was changed from being caster level = character level; to caster level = monk level.

[MrElusiveness]

why is there like 20 copies of this topic in the main of the dev tracker posts? its anoying when it should be all in one.

[Ninety]

why is there like 20 copies of this topic in the main of the dev tracker posts? its anoying when it should be all in one.

Each Dev post == post in Dev tracker. Don't complain that the devs are posting and giving us more and more info.

[delsoboss]

why is there like 20 copies of this topic in the main of the dev tracker posts? its anoying when it should be all in one.

Dev tracker tracks posts, not threads, so each time a Dev posts in a thread the Dev tracker registers the name of the thread but when you click on the link in the tracker it send you to the Dev post.

Same name reccuring many times in the Dev Tracker = many Dev posts in the same thread = i'm happy (your experience may vary)

[danotmano1998]

So, will there be an XP penalty between grouping with characters level 20-25?
IMO, they should be considered equal.

Allow more people to play with more people = win.

[Lighti]

Will there be an XP penalty for a lvl 21 questing with a lvl 25?

[Diyon]

Probably just me, but I'm not understanding your reasoning. If you hit level 25 now and we release the new enhancements later, why does that require you to TR again? I could understand if you said LR, but TR I don't get.

Ah I've got this one. With the enhancement update, you'll have racial PrEs. That may make many people want to alter their race. Also, some single LRs won't fix a multiclass split that doesn't work the way you want anymore. While in many cases LRs will do for people, many others are going to want to change their class splits and races.

[Hendrik]

So, will there be an XP penalty between grouping with characters level 20-25?
IMO, they should be considered equal.

Allow more people to play with more people = win.

I agree!

So long as the characters in question are in a "Epic" Quest/Raid.

No XP hit for any character 20-25 so long as they are in an Epic Quest/Raid together.

[tihocan]

I agree!

So long as the characters in question are in a "Epic" Quest/Raid.

No XP hit for any character 20-25 so long as they are in an Epic Quest/Raid together.

That would help, but it may not be enough: even if there is no XP hit, if L25 characters are significantly more powerful than L20 (and they should be, otherwise what's the point of these extra levels?), then people running the highest level content won't take 20's in their group anyway.
Or maybe they will for this update if the highest level content being run is easy enough, but this won't scale to future level cap increases.

[Combat_Wombat]

I agree!

So long as the characters in question are in a "Epic" Quest/Raid.

No XP hit for any character 20-25 so long as they are in an Epic Quest/Raid together.

No thats a terrible idea for the same reason that it is now. Allowing people to powerlevel other people is bad. For the same reason a level 20 shouldn't be able to help a level 15 in gianthold a level 25 shouldn't be able to help a level 20 in shavarath.

Explain to me how there is a difference between these scenarios and why we should magically allow people to power level just because everything has the word epic tacked on.