Epic Destinies

[shadereaper33]

Ya, but whats wrong with keeping your epic progress separate, in practice? If you go through the weeks of exploration of new content and propogate your epic xp curve toward 25, you aren't really going from "20--->25" in the blink of an eye when you cap out another past life.

Essentially, you are just back to where you left your character at before, with a 1-20 grind granting you an extra past life. And you are now back to doing the games most difficult, and probably, most enjoyable content instead of embarking on another 21-25 mission.

This would allow great synergism between the two leveling systems, will allow further propogation of alternate characters, and will allow efficient assembly of endgame groups without having to wait for folks regrinding their epic levels.

This picture seems very appealing to me, because it allows every player, casual or hardcore, to do what they enjoy doing most- without transitional garbage that has been already done before, standing in their way to just create a time sink.

Again, your suggestion will lead to a lack of experienced, knowledgeable players in the 20-24 range, which will lead to a wider gap between the haves and have-nots. If everyone who knows and has run the 20-24 quests gets an automatic free pass to 25 as soon as they hit 20, then all of those players will have no reason to run the 20-24 content ever again. From a developer perspective, this is also a bad idea, as all that content you spent time developing will only ever be seen a few times per character, rather than a few times per life. For me at least, this would be very discouraging when it came time to develop new content.

[HungarianRhapsody]

In the group-think conversations that form in Turbine HQ . . . do you not understand that it's an absolute waste of time to pursue levels 21-25 until you are done with your TRs? At this point all I can say is I have ZERO INTEREST in running ANY of the new content as I'll be busy getting all my TRs done.

It's not an absolute waste of time because you'll still be piling up epic destinies that you'll keep in later lives. It's just not as valuable as your "final" life because you won't get to keep

I think it's pretty clear that if you're the kind of person to have 3 or more lives on a character, then you're going to have at least a few destinies fully capped as well. That's going to require more XP than you can acquire in one "life" of 21-25, so I don't anticipate that you'll be losing as much as you might expect. I fully expect that Epic Destinies are going to be where the real power sits and that generic "Epic levels" are going to be minor in comparison.

[voodoogroves]

I'm ok with some minor carrot ... but minor (XP break as Leloric suggests maybe) ... though I wouldn't mind a slight change.

Instead of an XP break based on your immediately previous life, allow the use of an epic heart of wood. The epic heart of wood acts like a true heart of wood but also drops a special "epic XP break" tome/token (BTC, exclusive) in your inventory. The benefit of this may not be as much as Leloric suggests, but still some sort of XP beneift which would allow the player to hold that tome until later. Thus ....

Leloric's Proposal
1st life to 25
2nd life - break on 20+ XP ... but if you intend to TR somewhat quickly, no break on the next life
3rd life - if you just TR'd no break


My Variation Would Allow
1st life to 25 .... get the tome/token for future XP benefit
2nd life to 20
3rd life to 20
4th life to 20 ... and now use token to get break on 21-25 XP that you've saved since life 1

This makes it so that player who has that character they really like and is now contemplating a multi-TR isn't completely discouraged to do so. Essentially, you save it for when you need it. Since you can save it, maybe it provides less benefit than Leloric's suggestion.


Also - did not see an answer to my BAB question ... any chance for a response?

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...2&postcount=46

[Chai]

What exactly are they gonna do at lev 20 while waiting to tr again. More leveling thats not really taking a break from leveling I hardly doubt a lev 20 is capable of endgame lev 25 raiding.

So youre saying that they are going to launch content that NO ONE is capable of completing on day 1?

Ive been waiting for this day for so long....

Turbine, make it so.

[thatdamnnewbie]

Alright after reading 19 pages of this and the "Carrot" I just can't understand why so many of you want even more for the elitest crew. There is enough of that in game already why would the devs give you another reason to block out the lfm you think getting 20-25 is going to be a challenge at your current gear lvls when they are offering solo dif, or even more to the point maybe we should just have them say meh no xp everyone can just be 25 because its to much of a challenge to grind a few lvls. It's pointless to whine about the grind, if thats the case why not just say I refuse to do anything at lvl 20 because I don't gain anything from it now that I'm done with my character. When the "Carrot" came out it was a joke people did it for bragging rights not for the bonuses of the feat that was the point of it. What is the point of playing the game if your not going to have fun with it.

On a side note devs keep it up the new pack and changes look amazing I'm really pumped to test it all out as soon as its available.

[voodoogroves]

If at all possible, I'd love for the "epic flag" at 19 if TR1, 18 if TR2+ to be considered.

Also, no power-level XP hit for epic quests. I'd like to not have barriers to grouping in the epic range.

[Cetus]

Again, your suggestion will lead to a lack of experienced, knowledgeable players in the 20-24 range, which will lead to a wider gap between the haves and have-nots. If everyone who knows and has run the 20-24 quests gets an automatic free pass to 25 as soon as they hit 20, then all of those players will have no reason to run the 20-24 content ever again. From a developer perspective, this is also a bad idea, as all that content you spent time developing will only ever be seen a few times per character, rather than a few times per life. For me at least, this would be very discouraging when it came time to develop new content.

Well, there a few things here that are easily refuted by looking at the game we play today.

1. Them running 21-25 the first time through will inevitably result in repetition of the quests. The amount of new quests they are releasing won't cover all the xp needed to go from levels 21-25. They will have to repeat them.

2. Players that reach level 25 the first time are not necessarily going to be less experienced than the player that goes to level 25 three times because a player who has tr'd 5 times isn't really more experienced than a player who has tr'ed 4 times. The learning curve tapers off.

3. If the only incentive that we have to run the new quests repeatedly is because of xp, then we have a much bigger problem. Look at the reason why we grind epic content today. Loot, gear, and epic destiny's will provide plenty of incentive to repeat and learn the quests without having to regrind levels 21-25 each time you TR.

In the end, the content will be run plenty of times for a multitude of different reasons on your first way up to 25. With major emphasis being on maxing out our epic destinies, this is why having to run the stuff yet again from levels 20-25 is a GRIND and is utter overkill. It is very easy to accept this fact because A) We have seen it happen throughout the rest of the content in the game, no exceptions B) The amount of quests being released this expansion is insufficient to match the amount of xp that will be needed to go from 21-25, otherwise the devs wouldn't allow non-epic xp to qualify, wouldn't create epic difficulty tiers 9which will probably have first time bonuses) and wouldn't fiddle with epic timers.

[Chai]

Tr'ing is a huge source of income for Turbine and anything that reduces peoples want to do so is going to be a cut in profits.

.

Farming challenges to get to the tokens enough to get a TR takes 7 runs.

Im still not seeing how people are all up in arms about this.

Before. Hit 20 - Only source of power increase on toon is better gear, regardless of how long you waited after hitting 20.

After. Hit 20, now can still farm gear, but can also increase in power through epic xp.

Looks like an all win, no loss situation to me.

[tihocan]

That is a good suggestion, though I would modify it a bit. If you TR at level 20, you start at level 1 as you do now. If you decide to play at bit before TRing and are somewhere in the 21-24 range, you start at level 4, similar to vet 1. If you decide to play all the way to cap before TRing, and hit level 25, then you get to start at level 7, similar to vet 2.

Those levels are somewhat arbitrary based upon the vet status, and obviously up for debate. I make this suggestion because, as I read your suggestion, I think of someone leveling to 20, TRing, and then being able to start again immediately at level 10+. I think there needs to be some criteria based upon how far above level 20 you got to determine how far above level 1 you start.

Yeah sorry if I wasn't clear, that's exactly what I meant. Something like:
TR at 20 => start at 1, next TR available at 20
TR at 21 => start at 4, next TR available at 21 (or start at 1, next TR available at 20)
TR at 22 => start at 7, next TR available at 22 (or start at 4... or start at 1...)
TR at 23 => start at 9, next TR available at 23 (or start at 7... or start at 4... or start at 1...)
TR at 24 => start at 11, next TR available at 24 (or ...)
TR at 25 => start at 13, next TR available at 25 (or ...)

(obviously the numbers would need to be properly balanced so that there is no obvious best choice, and you can pick depending on the content you enjoy playing most, although the fastest should remain starting at low level, since the highest levels offer better loot + epic destiny advancement)

[Ganak]

what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt?

Perhaps a carrot for unlocking all the trees?

[HatsuharuZ]

Perhaps a carrot for unlocking all the trees?

Maybe a special feat, or a sparkly halo similar to the one you get when an FvS gives you a crown! And what's up with carrots? It's quickly becoming a meme...



On another note, I think that Epic levels/Epic Destinies should be kept seperate from the TR mechanic. Some people dislike having to start over and over again, while others can TR within a month or even a week, and often do so. TRs already have enough benefits, like the thrice-stacking past-life feats, the extra stat points and the completionist feat. I am glad that with epic destinies there is something to do at level 20 besides favor and gear farming.

[tihocan]

Im still not seeing how people are all up in arms about this.

Before. Hit 20 - Only source of power increase on toon is better gear, regardless of how long you waited after hitting 20.

After. Hit 20, now can still farm gear, but can also increase in power through epic xp.

Looks like an all win, no loss situation to me.

The loss is that when you TR, it takes longer to get back to the point where you can play the highest level content with your capped friends.
I'm not sure it's such a big issue right now (we lack information to be able to tell), but it will definitely become one at some point in the future if the cap keeps increasing.

[MadFloyd]

I
A question though: You mention present Epic as being between future 'Epic Hard' and 'Epic Elite'. Is this true for all epics, including the ones players consider to be unusually easy or difficult? Will we see present Epics given different challenge ratings from each other (e.g. Snitch or Lords of Dust might be CR 21 on 'epic normal' and the present live version considered CR 22, while the present Servants of the Overlord or Chains of Flame might be CR 26)?

Or is your intention to make 'Epic Elite' about the same difficulty from one quest to another?

The CRs of current epic content will vary based on their overall difficulty such that it affects the amount of XP awarded. That said, the Epic Elite will not vary per dungeon (this would require a substantial amount of dev time that we would prefer to spend on new content).

[shadereaper33]

Well, there a few things here that are easily refuted by looking at the game we play today.

1. Them running 21-25 the first time through will inevitably result in repetition of the quests. The amount of new quests they are releasing won't cover all the xp needed to go from levels 21-25. They will have to repeat them.

2. Players that reach level 25 the first time are not necessarily going to be less experienced than the player that goes to level 25 three times because a player who has tr'd 5 times isn't really more experienced than a player who has tr'ed 4 times. The learning curve tapers off.

3. If the only incentive that we have to run the new quests repeatedly is because of xp, then we have a much bigger problem. Look at the reason why we grind epic content today. Loot, gear, and epic destiny's will provide plenty of incentive to repeat and learn the quests without having to regrind levels 21-25 each time you TR.

In the end, the content will be run plenty of times for a multitude of different reasons on your first way up to 25. With major emphasis being on maxing out our epic destinies, this is why having to run the stuff yet again from levels 20-25 is a GRIND and is utter overkill. It is very easy to accept this fact because A) We have seen it happen throughout the rest of the content in the game, no exceptions B) The amount of quests being released this expansion is insufficient to match the amount of xp that will be needed to go from 21-25, otherwise the devs wouldn't allow non-epic xp to qualify, wouldn't create epic difficulty tiers 9which will probably have first time bonuses) and wouldn't fiddle with epic timers.

in regards to your 3 points:

1. The people running them the first time, may not have knowledge of the quests. Regardless of metagaming knowledge however, with your suggestion there will be fewer people running the 21-24 quests because the lvl 25 quests will likely have the best gear/xp.

2. I agree with your 2nd point, though again, it isn't about knowledge so much as simply the number of people willing to run the quests.

3. If you are going to be re-grinding all of the 21-25 quests anyway, then why do you want to be auto-leveled directly to 25? Also, you contend here that people will still run all of the quests for loot and epic destiny xp, but if we also have to run those quests for character xp, this is somehow game-breaking.

In regards to your final paragraph, I ask again why running the quests for epic destiny xp and character xp is somehow more of a grind than running it for epic destiny xp alone? From your post you seem to be saying that it is somehow unacceptable to have to grind quests for epic destiny xp and character xp, but grinding for just epic destiny xp is just fine with you. This confuses me because you earn both of them simultaneously, in equal amounts.

[Cyr]

It's not an absolute waste of time because you'll still be piling up epic destinies that you'll keep in later lives. It's just not as valuable as your "final" life because you won't get to keep

I think it's pretty clear that if you're the kind of person to have 3 or more lives on a character, then you're going to have at least a few destinies fully capped as well. That's going to require more XP than you can acquire in one "life" of 21-25, so I don't anticipate that you'll be losing as much as you might expect. I fully expect that Epic Destinies are going to be where the real power sits and that generic "Epic levels" are going to be minor in comparison.

I think this is more flawed then that.

This is a basic precedence that is being set. Level cap goes up again and the gap between level 20 and cap goes up again.

Basically this is increasing the disincentive to TR each time the level cap goes up further beyond the basic level cap increase issue of each TR past life being less valuable because your toons total stats are greater.

I really do not see the good in this decision beyond the flawed thought that having TRs leveling up from 20 to cap multiple times will put more people in the treadmill consistently. I think this will work the opposite way and push people into once and done if at all possible and away from alts (which would be the real path for multiple times through the 20+ range).

[Cetus]

in regards to your 3 points:

1. The people running them the first time, may not have knowledge of the quests. Regardless of metagaming knowledge however, with your suggestion there will be fewer people running the 21-24 quests because the lvl 25 quests will likely have the best gear/xp.

2. I agree with your 2nd point, though again, it isn't about knowledge so much as simply the number of people willing to run the quests.

3. If you are going to be re-grinding all of the 21-25 quests anyway, then why do you want to be auto-leveled directly to 25? Also, you contend here that people will still run all of the quests for loot and epic destiny xp, but if we also have to run those quests for character xp, this is somehow game-breaking.

In regards to your final paragraph, I ask again why running the quests for epic destiny xp and character xp is somehow more of a grind than running it for epic destiny xp alone? From your post you seem to be saying that it is somehow unacceptable to have to grind quests for epic destiny xp and character xp, but grinding for just epic destiny xp is just fine with you. This confuses me because you earn both of them simultaneously, in equal amounts.

Oh the answer is simple, grinding all the content at 25 is way more enjoyable than grinding them at 21, 22, or 23.

[MadFloyd]

Oh the answer is simple, grinding all the content at 25 is way more enjoyable than grinding them at 21, 22, or 23.

Can you elaborate on this?

[SableShadow]

Does xp per level beyond 20 vary by level?
e.g. moar xp for Party Crashers @ 22 than @ 23

[LeLoric]

Can you elaborate on this?

Getting additional epic destinies unlocked is more enjoyable if you are already at level 25.

You can group with other 25's and not worry about losing xp -50% for 4 levels under if you are 21 or no xp if you are still 20.

ML 25 weapons and gear available to you.

Level 22 and up content can still be run at elite for no xp loss so its not like you are really limiting your xp options that much.

[Inferno346]

So youre saying that they are going to launch content that NO ONE is capable of completing on day 1?

Ive been waiting for this day for so long....

Turbine, make it so.

More like people will be 21-22 on day 1 and beat the hardest content on day 1.