Epic Destinies

[Lifespawn]

Not really as you can also get that same gain even while at a lev 25 cap. Re-levelling has nothing to so with unlocking a second destiny.

What if some very eager completionist build also unlocks all destinies then turbine releases a new class and now they have to do a life to 20 in the new class and then back 1-25 in their preferred class and get no gain from 21-25.

then they have to redo 1-25 so what trin'g is still a choice.

[LeLoric]

This is also the fundamental point some of us are arguing against. There IS gain in doing the epic levels again because you're ALSO earning Epic Destiny XP, which does gain you abilities.

Another way to look at it: someone mentioned that they like to 'take a break' from TR'ing when they hit level 20 - presumably doing some other in-game activity for a week or so. Currently in the game, whatever you do for that break period, you're certainly not earning XP. If we added a feature that allowed you to (optionally) not earn any progress at level 20 would that be better?

If I take a break from tr'ing I want to do end game content with my guild. That means I have to level 21-25 each time. Being stuck not at endgame but not ready to tr again puts you in limbo.

Unless you think end game raiding on the hardest difficulty should be capable at lev 20. Even then since I am with someone 5 levels over me I don't gain xp or has this changed?

You are creating a huge rift between end game players and tr players.

[Bowser_Koopa]

Not really as you can also get that same gain even while at a lev 25 cap. Re-levelling has nothing to so with unlocking a second destiny.

What if some very eager completionist build also unlocks all destinies then turbine releases a new class and now they have to do a life to 20 in the new class and then back 1-25 in their preferred class and get no gain from 21-25.

Then in the event you had what was stated to be 50 levels worth of epic destiny xp and thus all epic destinies there would be no "gain" other than re-reaching the point where your current incarnation could house all the power of being "epic" and also handle all the gains of your epic destiny and various twists of fate. Also you could potentially select new epic feats that better fit your current build concept.

I suppose in theory they could put in some sort of system where you get some passive "epic life" feats for regaining epic levels 21-25 and further add to the power creep.

Who knows what the future may bring

[dragonofsteel2]

Not really as you can also get that same gain even while at a lev 25 cap. Re-levelling has nothing to so with unlocking a second destiny.

What if some very eager completionist build also unlocks all destinies then turbine releases a new class and now they have to do a life to 20 in the new class and then back 1-25 in their preferred class and get no gain from 21-25.

I complete agree, plus if new player and just learning the game and u just Level all the way to 25. Then you find out about the TR system and want to enhance your abilties. Guess what you just been force to redo 21 to 25 with no further advancement. This for me would be very big negative on doing it every. Basiclly you punishing the person for trying out the game and learning to play the game. They did not have the knowledge of plaing out the best use of there time.

[arkonas]

I complete agree, plus if new player and just learning the game and u just Level all the way to 25. Then you find out about the TR system and want to enhance your abilties. Guess what you just been force to redo 21 to 25 with no further advancement. This for me would be very big negative on doing it every. Basiclly you punishing the person for trying out the game and learning to play the game. They did not have the knowledge of plaing out the best use of there time.

you get to unlock the destinies. how is that a bad thing? i dont get how some of you are missing this? you will be really powerful and earned it. there will be more. there is nothing wrong with the system

[Jaxom_Faux]

Got another question which is actually quite important for current build design: once you start advancing in one destiny (without maxing it out), if you TR into another build, can you always keep advancing that destiny (after reaching 20 again)?

in the article devs said you retain xp gained if you swap.

my fundamental point is that this is a game. the fun is had by playing. i enjoy going from 1-20 on my tr's because i get to play the game again. that will not change with 1-25, and i do not feel that i need a cookie for everything i do.

the arguing about 21-25 epic xp does make me want to ask: madfloyd, do we cap at 25 for epic destiny xp like character xp? or do we continue to collect epic destiny xp even if we're capped for leveling xp?

in the case of the first the benefit of grinding 21-25 again is obvious.

[Alkindus]

Exactly. You cannot mix and match then. You either do one or the other with anything in between resulting in a re-grind with nothing to show for it.

I mean, once you hit 25 you now have all your epic destiny stuff. Now what? Doing the actual grind from 21-25 each subsequent time after TR'ing just restores you to where you were, with absolutely zero further gain.

If they want us to regrind levels 21-25 after each TR, then give us a reward for doing so. The past life only rewards regrinding levels 1-20, twist of fate tokens or extra AP's should be granted then for regrinding epic levels. It is just utter nonsense that it, essentially, is work for free.

Anyone who says that "oh, you're regrinding 20 levels anyway" is missing the point. The point is that today, 20 is the level at which you can tr AND are at the peak of your power.

In MOtU, 25 is the peak of your power, and that will be the point at which you'll want to be. 20 is now just a point where you can tr. Separating the two milestones without providing incentive to grind the 5 level difference, but making it a requirement is the problem that I have with it. And it is a very discouraging problem.

I totally agree with both of you guys.

Not much to add, but I also wanted to note that with the enhancement changes being delayed until August there arises further frustration. With enhancement changes I'm willing to bet a lot of people will be rethinking their builds. Having to earn back the epic levels after all the cards are finally laid on the table seems a bit lame. In this case I don't think its an issue of challenge.. more so an issue of pointless grind.

[Vazok1]

Will the specific information on all this be available on the 10th?

[arkonas]

ok but seriously MOST players wont even unlock all of them. the only ones that will get that type will be the ones who have the time or dedication to achieve that status. this really makes a lot of players happy they will get to unlock some of them. But seriously its the hard core gamers that are the only ones who will have all unlocked. so lets not go on a power binge here

[donblas]

Thanks to everyone at Turbine for this information.

I am fascinated and interested by all of this but obviously no-one out here has enough information to form an opinion or get irate about it.

I'm sure there will be enough doooomm for the whingers when the epic destinies and levels actually come out.

For now I'm not going to bite off the hands of any Turbine employee who is good enough to give us some information; I'm going to say thanks for the hard work and that I look forward to being able to do something new with my capped toons. It's also cool that those who don't like this don't have to have anything to do with it.

Roll on June!!!!!!!1

[Tolero]

the arguing about 21-25 epic xp does make me want to ask: madfloyd, do we cap at 25 for epic destiny xp like character xp? or do we continue to collect epic destiny xp even if we're capped for leveling xp?

You can keep earning XP towards epic destinies even when you hit 25 character XP.

[NortheOfThelanis]

This is also the fundamental point some of us are arguing against. There IS gain in doing the epic levels again because you're ALSO earning Epic Destiny XP, which does gain you abilities.

Another way to look at it: someone mentioned that they like to 'take a break' from TR'ing when they hit level 20 - presumably doing some other in-game activity for a week or so. Currently in the game, whatever you do for that break period, you're certainly not earning XP. If we added a feature that allowed you to (optionally) not earn any progress at level 20 would that be better?

This. They gave those who TR a way to enjoy end game content without feeling like they are just wasting their time with an imminent TR on the horizon. They will still get a major benefit of end game content to keep, permanently, they will just have to get epic lvl 21-25 again whenever their TR grind is complete, or the next time they feel like taking a break.

[LeLoric]

You can keep earning XP towards epic destinies even when you hit 25 character XP.

Which further invalidates the whole youd be gaining epic destiny xp while levelling from 21-25 as you would gain that same xp anyways whether you had to level 21-25 or not.

[tihocan]

I could swear I read somewhere that initially, you would have access to different destinies depending on your class split (18 levels in one class vs. 6 levels). I can't find this dev post anymore. Has it been edited out? Am I just crazy?

[LeLoric]

This. They gave those who TR a way to enjoy end game content without feeling like they are just wasting their time with an imminent TR on the horizon. They will still get a major benefit of end game content to keep, permanently, they will just have to get epic lvl 21-25 again whenever their TR grind is complete, or the next time they feel like taking a break.

What exactly are they gonna do at lev 20 while waiting to tr again. More leveling thats not really taking a break from leveling I hardly doubt a lev 20 is capable of endgame lev 25 raiding.

[Cetus]

This is also the fundamental point some of us are arguing against. There IS gain in doing the epic levels again because you're ALSO earning Epic Destiny XP, which does gain you abilities.

Another way to look at it: someone mentioned that they like to 'take a break' from TR'ing when they hit level 20 - presumably doing some other in-game activity for a week or so. Currently in the game, whatever you do for that break period, you're certainly not earning XP. If we added a feature that allowed you to (optionally) not earn any progress at level 20 would that be better?

Well, hold on-

The epic destiny benefits can be unlocked in a single journey once you are capped at 25.

Once you TR, your epic destiny's are locked in, which is great. But the subsequent grinds thereafter don't result in any additional benefits, as you physically slave away toward 25 again, now do they?

I assure you that the majority of the endgame players will have it all unlocked, just as nick mentioned. And then what? We decide to flip through a past life quick and go through 21-25 all over again, this time, with your destiny's there. Now, after some endgame time, you release a new class or I all of a sudden want to get a completionist bcause I'm bored again- and then, AGAIN, need to go through 21-25 with no benefit from the previous 21-25 grind that I did. How is it detrimental to ANYONE or ANYTHING to just let the work you already did kick back in? Why must we grind the epic levels yet again....for what? why?

You punish us completionists by restricting our flexibility to have to run the druid first, rather than diving into the new stuff. The greater learning tome is irrelevent for epic xp, and on top of this we have multiple characters that would like to take advantage of the tr system and the epic leveling system.

Furthermore, as nick asked earlier, if epic timers persist as well, then we're gonna be grinding for a while...

Either keep TR'ing and epic levels SEPARATE- to the full meaning of the word. Or, give us a reason to not feel absolutely craptastic about making a TR decision, knowing that levels 21-25 await us yet again...

[NortheOfThelanis]

What exactly are they gonna do at lev 20 while waiting to tr again. More leveling thats not really taking a break from leveling I hardly doubt a lev 20 is capable of endgame lev 25 raiding.

I don't know what you mean. They wouldn't be lvl 20. They would be lvl 20, then 21, then 22, then ... 25. So yes, they could do lvl 25 end game content...

Do you mean the next time that they hit 20 and want to take a TR break? If so, once again, they would be lvl 20, then 21, then 22, then ... 25. Except this time, they would have the advantage that last time they played through 21-25 they got at least 5 lvls of epic destinies (if grinding after hitting 25, more).

There's a different between lvl between 1-20 repeatedly, without a break, and doing 21-25, enjoying end game content (capping at 25 for awhile), experimenting and leveling more epic destinies, and then deciding you want to go back to doing the 1-20 routine again for awhile.

[oradafu]

Let me see if I got this straight.

1) If I decide to TR, when I get access to any Destiny trees that I unlocked previously as long as I return to level 20. So on my first life, I gain access to the Shadowdancer tree before TRing, I'll be able to access that tree automatically at level 20 while also being able to open another tree, such as Grandmaster. Is this correct?

2) If the above if correct, that would mean if I did TRed a second time after unlocking Shadowdancer on the first life and unlocking Grandmaster on the second life, then upon reaching level 20, I'll have automatic access to both those Destiny trees plus an additional one, such as Dreadnought. Is this correct?

3) When TRing, do I get to keep the Active Destinies in the various trees that I gain access in the previous life/lives? Or do I have to re-earn the XP/Active Destiny Points to re-gain things already unlocked in a previous life? I think this is where alot of people are worried about the gap between TRs and non-TRs. If the progress on the trees and Active Destiny Points are wiped when a character is TRed, then the incentive to TR after making some progress into Epic Levels has been lost, even for completionists.

[NortheOfThelanis]

Well, hold on-

The epic destiny benefits can be unlocked in a single journey once you are capped at 25.

Once you TR, your epic destiny's are locked in, which is great. But the subsequent grinds thereafter don't result in any additional benefits, as you physically slave away toward 25 again, now do they?

I assure you that the majority of the endgame players will have it all unlocked, just as nick mentioned. And then what? We decide to flip through a past life quick and go through 21-25 all over again, this time, with your destiny's there. Now, after some endgame time, you release a new class or I all of a sudden want to get a completionist bcause I'm bored again- and then, AGAIN, need to go through 21-25 with no benefit from the previous 21-25 grind that I did. How is it detrimental to ANYONE or ANYTHING to just let the work you already did kick back in? Why must we grind the epic levels yet again....for what? why?

You punish us completionists by restricting our flexibility to have to run the druid first, rather than diving into the new stuff. The greater learning tome is irrelevent for epic xp, and on top of this we have multiple characters that would like to take advantage of the tr system and the epic leveling system.

Furthermore, as nick asked earlier, if epic timers persist as well, then we're gonna be grinding for a while...

Either keep TR'ing and epic levels SEPARATE- to the full meaning of the word. Or, give us a reason to not feel absolutely craptastic about making a TR decision, knowing that levels 21-25 await us yet again...

The 'not craptastic' reason is that you get to keep all of your epic destinies progress, in all 10 of the different paths. That is permanent xp. That does NOT exist in the game currently. A TR ALWAYS has to grind 1-20, every single life. If a new class is released, they have to go regrind all 3 lives of that new class, and then once again the life that they desire to 'end' with.

They are giving us a HUGE benefit now in letting us keep 50 levels worth of xp, permanently, no matter how many times we TR. That is enormous. That makes me able to try out the end game content for awhile and then go back to the TR grind. I do not care that I will have to do 21-25 again because it is exactly what i'm doing every time I do the TR grind, 1-20, from scratch, every time. I don't get to keep my skills, my feats, anything heroic related. They are letting you keep your epic destiny xp. This is a major win, in my book.

[SaintDR]

Will completionist have any effect on epic tiers? It seems to me that the grind for the feat is becoming more and more a waste of time.