17cleric/3monk TR healer/melee

[kclark1980]

Greetings and salutations everyone,

I have been planning on TRing my cleric soon into *gasp* another cleric. I love the class I love healing but I am looking for something with some more flair. In my first life I played a healbot and what more can you expect from building it as a healbot but to heal. I would like to try the other sides now. Something that is either offensive spell casting or on the melee side instead. I have been doing a bit of reading and I think I am interested in playing a "clonk".

I would really like to be able to have the fist of the light boost for when I solo to get a little hp back that way. I already have picked up the Staff of the Shadow and am working on getting the Stonedust hand wraps currently to make the Vampiric Stonedust Wraps. I also have picked up the Garments of Equilibrium.

The problem I am having is trying to decide how to level it. I would figure you would take Cleric first so you can have the Echos of Power but at what point do you take the monk levels?

I planned on my stats being:
Human
Str: 12
Dex: 15
Con: 14 or 16
Wis: everything else here
Int: 8 (9 if i have an extra point)
Cha: 14 (divine might)

I appreciate any input that you can provide.

[AtomicMew]

Take 1 monk to start so you can use wraps right away, then cleric until you get blade barrier (11 cleric/1 monk). After that, I would take the next two monk levels before any more cleric.

Your stats are a bit weird. There's no point in dumping STR for CHA/divine might, since point for point, STR is MUCH better. Divine might is only possibly worthwhile once you have an equivalent STR compared to CHA - and even then is pretty questionable.

[stoerm]

I like to be contrary so rolled a drow clonk I am planning to take to 18/2.
- Str 16
- Con 12
- Wis 16
- Cha 14

I forget Int and Dex, probably 10 and 12.

Currently lvl 8 (1/7) and use wraps. Water or fire stance depending on role. It's already very reasonable with melee and casting, especially since I have senior alts that hand down plat and gear. If / when she gets the racial tempest pre, there is potential for nice twf with wraps or rapiers.

[MnaSidhe]

If / when she gets the racial tempest pre, there is potential for nice twf with wraps or rapiers.

I was under the impression that Tempest did not work with Handwraps?

[Bacab]

I like to be contrary so rolled a drow clonk I am planning to take to 18/2.
- Str 16
- Con 12
- Wis 16
- Cha 14

I forget Int and Dex, probably 10 and 12.

Currently lvl 8 (1/7) and use wraps. Water or fire stance depending on role. It's already very reasonable with melee and casting, especially since I have senior alts that hand down plat and gear. If / when she gets the racial tempest pre, there is potential for nice twf with wraps or rapiers.

You will need a higher DEX for tempest (Dodge is pre-req) and a higher DEX for *good* TWF.

[kclark1980]

OK I will keep that in mind about taking monk at level 1. I had thought to take cleric in that location so I could get the echos of power but I had not thought about needing wraps. I had figured I would pick up a set from the quest in Korthos.

I have been playing around witht he planner and not getting anywhere fast things are not clicking into place as I had hoped they would. Is there a general standard 17/3 clonk build or even a 17/2/1 that i could alter slightly to be a 17/3. Again I appreciate the assistance from members of the forum community thank you for the help and insight.

[kclark1980]

ok here is what i havecome up with. thoughts are apppreciated. thank you.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Human Female
(3 Monk \ 17 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 245
Spell Points: 1160 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 11
Will: 18

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom               16                    20
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    26
Bluff                -1                     0
Concentration         6                    28
Diplomacy            -1                     0
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle               -1                     0
Heal                  3                     7
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  3                     7
Listen                3                     5
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair               -1                     0
Search               -1                     0
Spot                  3                     5
Swim                  3                     7
Tumble                3                     6
Use Magic Device     n/a                    n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Human Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 2 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 3 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 4 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 5 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 6 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+3)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 7 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+0.5)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 8 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 9 (Monk)
Skill: Balance (+2)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Skill: Tumble (+2)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 10 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 11 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 14 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 15 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing II
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Healing III
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I


Level 16 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 17 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 19 (Cleric)
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Balance (+1)
Skill: Concentration (+1)
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Wisdom I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration I
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Spell Penetration II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Extra Turning I

[MnaSidhe]

ok here is what i havecome up with. thoughts are apppreciated. thank you.

The advice that was given earlier, to take 1 level of Monk and then the rest as soon as you have Blade Barrier was actually good. I multiclassed my Cleric (18/2) with the 2 at the start... and the extra levels until Blade Barrier were not nice!

On the Enhancements - if you are planning on taking the Radiant Servant, I have found "Divine Healing" to be a waste. Instead of using the Turn (in short-ish supply with a low CHA) to put a Divine Healing on someone, why not put on an Aura/Burst? I know one of those things is needed as a prerequisite for RadServ... I usually take DV1 (Wizard out of SP, but we need an emergency DDoor...).

You can still achieve acceptable Healing without maxxing out Life Magic / Prayer of Life. If you want to be a bit different than your Healbot... you could take some Cleric Smiting... and the relevant Prayers. Even one rank significantly improves Damage Output. This would make your Divine Punishment (for example) much better.

If you want to be a bit melee... then your HP are looking a little low? Maybe take a Toughness feat and some Racial Toughness Enhancements? I'd drop Extend spell at L1 and Take Toughness... Extend is not so necessary, I feel, especially once you get up in level.

[kclark1980]

Ok so I have to take Cleric at first level if I want to keep the Echoes of Power ability as an emergency back up. I changed around the other level and took the toughness and added the enhanced line for it also.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.11.02
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Neutral Human Female
(3 Monk \ 17 Cleric) 
Hit Points: 297
Spell Points: 1134 
BAB: 14\14\19\24
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 12
Will: 17

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    22
Dexterity            15                    18
Constitution         14                    17
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom               16                    19
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               3                    27
Bluff                -1                     0
Concentration         6                    31
Diplomacy            -1                     0
Disable Device       n/a                    n/a
Haggle               -1                     0
Heal                  3                     6
Hide                  2                     4
Intimidate           -1                     0
Jump                  3                     8
Listen                3                     4
Move Silently         2                     4
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair               -1                     0
Search               -1                     0
Spot                  3                     4
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                3                     5
Use Magic Device     n/a                    n/a

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Human Bonus) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Cleric
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 4 (Cleric)


Level 5 (Cleric)


Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 7 (Cleric)


Level 8 (Cleric)


Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Cleric)


Level 11 (Cleric)


Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Cleric)


Level 14 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 16 (Cleric)


Level 17 (Cleric)


Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell


Level 19 (Cleric)


Level 20 (Cleric)
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant I
Enhancement: Cleric Radiant Servant II
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Void Strike I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Improved Concentration I
Enhancement: Improved Concentration II
Enhancement: Improved Concentration III
Enhancement: Improved Concentration IV
Enhancement: Improved Heal I
Enhancement: Improved Heal II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life II
Enhancement: Cleric Prayer of Incredible Life III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic I
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic II
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic III
Enhancement: Cleric Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot I
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot II
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot III
Enhancement: Cleric Energy of the Zealot IV
Enhancement: Cleric Wisdom I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality I
Enhancement: Cleric Divine Vitality II
Enhancement: Cleric Improved Turning I

[Cyiwin]

Ok so I have to take Cleric at first level if I want to keep the Echoes of Power ability as an emergency back up.
[/code]

I don't think your first level has to be cleric for that. Starting as a monk would get you more skills.

[daniel7]

I don't think your first level has to be cleric for that. Starting as a monk would get you more skills.

The problem with taking monk at level one as a human is that he has to pick 3 feats at level 1. None of them can be caster only feats. Two of them might be feats he could later pick as a monk bonus feat. Chances are he woul be better off doing monk b/t level 2-4.

[Phidius]

The problem with taking monk at level one as a human is that he has to pick 3 feats at level 1. None of them can be caster only feats. Two of them might be feats he could later pick as a monk bonus feat. Chances are he woul be better off doing monk b/t level 2-4.

Agreed - my clonks always start with cleric, because not "wasting" a feat is more important than maximizing skills.

I've not played a maxed-wisdom clonk, as I vastly prefer melee-healers to casting-healers. I would think that dumping dex and pumping str would be a better tactic.

TWF on a clonk simply increases the offhand's chance to proc an attack - there's no to-hit penalty on handwraps like there is on normal TWF.

So the question is this - do you do better DPS without the TWF chain and a high strength, or with the TWF chain and a low strength?

I'd rather see a slower stream of hits than a faster stream of misses. Unless the misses are in the middle of a swimsuit competition

Of course, a melee-focused clonk will have a high Str and the full TWF chain...

[daniel7]

At level 3 I would instead take Empower Heal, you need it anyways for Radiant Savant I right?
No Stunning Fist? You want Stunning Fists. Replace Weapon Focus with it.
All in all it looks good. Devotion from Delera's is nice to pick up before you TR.

[daniel7]

Wiki

Stunning Fist
Description
A swift unarmed attack to vulnerable areas that cause your target to be stunned for a short period of time (6 seconds). Stunning Fist requires 15 ki to use.

Note
For many players, Stunning Fist is often the first, if not the preferred, initial attack that a Monk will make.
It can be used over twice as often as Stunning Blow, which has a 15 second cooldown. With enough ki, a monk could keep an enemy in a state of permanent stun.
The DC is 10 + half Character level + Wisdom modifier + Stunning item bonus.
Stunning Fist's effectiveness is augmented by a Monk's WIS modifier as well as any handwraps with +Stunning Enhancements.
Stunning Fist does work on living constructs (such as Warforged). It does not work on constructs, elementals or undead.
Stunning Fist can only be used while unarmed.
As of Update 9, Stunning Fist can be chosen using normal feat slots at anytime (as opposed to a Monk feat as in past updates), and can be respecced freely using Fred.
As of Update 9, Stunning Fist was changed to use half character level instead of half Monk level to calculate DC.
As of Update 9, once 'stunned' the monster in question is considered Helpless and receives +50% damage per attack that hits.

[ShadowFlash]

Take 1 monk to start so you can use wraps right away, then cleric until you get blade barrier (11 cleric/1 monk). After that, I would take the next two monk levels before any more cleric.

It is next to impossible for a human clonk to take monk at 1st level...it is the exception to the rule...don't do it.

Possibble bonus feat choices:
Toughness
TWF or THF (requires 15 DEX or 15 STR respectively)
Stunning Fist
Power Attack (very questionable on a WIS based clonk and requires 13 STR)

Human Clonk...Level 1 Monk = 3 feats (1 normal, 1 Human Bonus, 1 monk Martial)
No meta's are allowed at this point. The only way it's possible is if you are absolutely sure you are taking all 4 monk bonus feats listed...I.E. Start with at least 13 STR and take Power Attack, Toughness, and Stunning Fist...saving TWF for your 2nd Monk Bonus. Again, you better be sure, because Fred can't swap these.

Divine Might....
I built for it on my not-really-a-clonk melee cleric (with 2 monk levels) and regret how I did it. That being said, my advice is keep it in mind, but don't specifically go out of your way for it. If you can't get DMII or higher, the obnoxious casting time makes DMI useless. I would try to get DMII (CHA 16) with a +2 tome...so starting CHA 14...then if sometime you are amazingly lucky and pull a +4 tome, DMIII is possible.

There's no point in dumping STR for CHA/divine might, since point for point, STR is MUCH better. Divine might is only possibly worthwhile once you have an equivalent STR compared to CHA - and even then is pretty questionable.

/disagree

Point-for-Point CHA+DM is a better value than STR as long as you can hit....as long as you can hit...as long as you can hit...which requires constant upkeep of DP/buffs and every piece of +atk gear you can squeeze in (and hopefully a bard)...
Both STR and CHA have synergies...STR is dmg and AB....CHA is dmg and # of turns.
Anything over 12 starting points....
2 points STR = +1atk/+1dmg
2 points CHA = +2dmg/+1turn

I started with 12 Strength on mine... + 3 level ups + 6 gear + 2 tome = 23 STR w/o buffs
I swing 2 Dwarven Axes, and have OTWF so -2atk. Handwraps will not have this handicap negating the 3 level up's in STR.
I hit just fine most of the tme with a +5/+6 bard and power attack on. I do have to turn PA off at times for Bladesworn Paladins and such, and do not suggest taking PA on a low STR build as I did (and the forums unanimously agreed I should take at the time over Imp Crit...grrr).
I do NOT have my warpriest's ToD set yet, NOR do I have my completed fabricator's set which together will add another +4 to attack (would be +6, but I'll be replacing the Sora Kell set)
Exceptional stat gear, cannith crafted +atk gear, and guild augment slots (which I do not have) can easily push this higher. I've found easily slotted cleric friendly items are more easily used to augment your to-hit and push the value of DMII (or in my case DMIII) well above the value of increased STR.

The OP being a caster-cleric with a minor in melee, should value the increased damage of Divine Might more than the increased "always-on" value of STR. "Powering-up" for melee trash, Ki generation, and Stunned/held Mobs with increased damage is more valuable than the modest increase the slight bump to STR provides by completely ditching CHA along with the extra turns it provides while in "healer" mode.

Furthermore...a Mob being held, stunned, or otherwise in a helpless condition (extremely relevant to a stunning fist caster-clonk) will recieve +50% damage...meaning all things being equal, the choice between raising CHA from 12 or STR from 12 to 16 via a +2 tome and 2 stat points will see STR at +3 damage and CHA (qualifing for DMII) at +6 damage making Divine Might even more valuable for a caster-clonk then STR as long as constant vigilance via gearing for to-hit is maintained. Pulling a +4 tome for DMIII brings it to +9 vs. helpless making it an insane no-brainer.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Helpless

ShadowFlash

Edited a bunch for typos, clarity, and my own personal example....before anyone else posted...bad habit of mine...will try to be more clear from the start in the future

[Raoull]

It is next to impossible for a human clonk to take monk at 1st level...it is the exception to the rule...don't do it.

Possibble bonus feat choices:
Toughness
TWF or THF (requires 15 DEX or 15 STR respectively)
Stunning Fist
Power Attack (very questionable on a WIS based clonk and requires 13 STR)

Human Clonk...Level 1 Monk = 3 feats (1 normal, 1 Human Bonus, 1 monk Martial)
No meta's are allowed at this point. The only way it's possible is if you are absolutely sure you are taking all 4 monk bonus feats listed...I.E. Start with at least 13 STR and take Power Attack, Toughness, and Stunning Fist...saving TWF for your 2nd Monk Bonus. Again, you better be sure, because Fred can't swap these.

For a melee clonk, who will be taking all of the above feats, 1st lvl monk is preferable for skills. The extra skills are extra nice if you're aiming for UMD.

For a caster clonk, 1st lvl as cleric is pretty much required.

Divine Might....
I built for it on my not-really-a-clonk melee cleric (with 2 monk levels) and regret how I did it. That being said, my advice is keep it in mind, but don't specifically go out of your way for it. If you can't get DMII or higher, the obnoxious casting time makes DMI useless. I would try to get DMII (CHA 16) with a +2 tome...so starting CHA 14...then if sometime you are amazingly lucky and pull a +4 tome, DMIII is possible.
/disagree

Point-for-Point CHA+DM is a better value than STR as long as you can hit....as long as you can hit...as long as you can hit...which requires constant upkeep of DP/buffs and every piece of +atk gear you can squeeze in (and hopefully a bard)...
Both STR and CHA have synergies...STR is dmg and AB....CHA is dmg and # of turns.
Anything over 12 starting points....
2 points STR = +1atk/+1dmg
2 points CHA = +2dmg/+1turn

I started with 12 Strength on mine... + 3 level ups + 6 gear + 2 tome = 23 STR w/o buffs
I swing 2 Dwarven Axes, and have OTWF so -2atk. Handwraps will not have this handicap negating the 3 level up's in STR.
I hit just fine most of the tme with a +5/+6 bard and power attack on. I do have to turn PA off at times for Bladesworn Paladins and such, and do not suggest taking PA on a low STR build as I did (and the forums unanimously agreed I should take at the time over Imp Crit...grrr).
I do NOT have my warpriest's ToD set yet, NOR do I have my completed fabricator's set which together will add another +4 to attack (would be +6, but I'll be replacing the Sora Kell set)
Exceptional stat gear, cannith crafted +atk gear, and guild augment slots (which I do not have) can easily push this higher. I've found easily slotted cleric friendly items are more easily used to augment your to-hit and push the value of DMII (or in my case DMIII) well above the value of increased STR.

The OP being a caster-cleric with a minor in melee, should value the increased damage of Divine Might more than the increased "always-on" value of STR. "Powering-up" for melee trash, Ki generation, and Stunned/held Mobs with increased damage is more valuable than the modest increase the slight bump to STR provides by completely ditching CHA along with the extra turns it provides while in "healer" mode.

Furthermore...a Mob being held, stunned, or otherwise in a helpless condition (extremely relevant to a stunning fist caster-clonk) will recieve +50% damage...meaning all things being equal, the choice between raising CHA from 12 or STR from 12 to 16 via a +2 tome and 2 stat points will see STR at +3 damage and CHA (qualifing for DMII) at +6 damage making Divine Might even more valuable for a caster-clonk then STR as long as constant vigilance via gearing for to-hit is maintained. Pulling a +4 tome for DMIII brings it to +9 vs. helpless making it an insane no-brainer.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Helpless

ShadowFlash

Edited a bunch for typos, clarity, and my own personal example....before anyone else posted...bad habit of mine...will try to be more clear from the start in the future

I disagree with most of this. My clonk ran with DM for quite a while before I eventually LR'ed to put those points into STR. While in theory its a better value, the problem is keeping it up. The casting is slow, the duration is short... but most importantly, it competes with Radiant Servant abilities for your turns. If you put 6 points into CHA to get DM, you get 3 more turns.... but you'll want to use DM more than 3 times between shrines. What really hurts is that with the 1 turn per 2 minutes regen of RS, using auras and a few bursts even just a few starting turns (and tanked cha can easily get 8) last a good long time. But once you start tossing around DM you'll burn through them in no time flat. You add significantly to your usage, but not to your regen rate.

And do not underestimate the tohit issue. As a str based, wrap wielding clonk (so 30 str, and no minuses for TWF), even I'd occasionally turn it off in epics, and I have a +4 tohit cannith crafted trinket. Without being full on str based, and using wraps, expect PA to be off much more often. I notice the only problematic mob listed is the WF Paladins, which to me implies epics aren't being taken into account.

I will say... one example mentioned above seems reasonable. If you're really a caster, and have CHA more for turns, then spending a few AP in DM just for beating on stunned trash mobs seems a good idea. Don't put points in CHA just to get DM, but if you've got them for other reasons the AP for the first 2 lvls isn't bad.

[ShadowFlash]

I disagree with most of this. My clonk ran with DM for quite a while before I eventually LR'ed to put those points into STR. While in theory its a better value, the problem is keeping it up. The casting is slow, the duration is short... but most importantly, it competes with Radiant Servant abilities for your turns. If you put 6 points into CHA to get DM, you get 3 more turns.... but you'll want to use DM more than 3 times between shrines. What really hurts is that with the 1 turn per 2 minutes regen of RS, using auras and a few bursts even just a few starting turns (and tanked cha can easily get 8) last a good long time. But once you start tossing around DM you'll burn through them in no time flat. You add significantly to your usage, but not to your regen rate.

And do not underestimate the tohit issue. As a str based, wrap wielding clonk (so 30 str, and no minuses for TWF), even I'd occasionally turn it off in epics, and I have a +4 tohit cannith crafted trinket. Without being full on str based, and using wraps, expect PA to be off much more often. I notice the only problematic mob listed is the WF Paladins, which to me implies epics aren't being taken into account.

I will say... one example mentioned above seems reasonable. If you're really a caster, and have CHA more for turns, then spending a few AP in DM just for beating on stunned trash mobs seems a good idea. Don't put points in CHA just to get DM, but if you've got them for other reasons the AP for the first 2 lvls isn't bad.

Dosen't seem like you disagree with much to me

DMII duration = same as Kensai Power Surge (and provides the same +4 damage)
DMII casting time...mentioned this as obnoxious...hence recommending ONLY DMII or higher to make it worthwhile.

Epics were NOT taken into account as I do not have the gear for it yet...you can see what gear I listed that I currently don't wear. With the missing gear my to-hit will increase at least +8-10 from where I'm at now, so I don't see it as relevant. This is also with 23 standing STR ATM...the build I posted will have less to-hit concerns than mine..hence my regret in building towards DMIII with power attack.

Yes, DMII is cheap enough AP-wise...that's why I like it as the breaking point.

I have 12 turns ATM (level 20 without ToD) and think it's a safe amount to keep my aura up and use DM liberally...If you're running low, it's not like you HAVE to use it on EVERY mob. I didn't even need to take tiers of extra turning...which can help if # of turns seems low for the playstyle.

Aura, Burst, and DM management...
I admit that the first thing I sacrifice when turns are low and SP is high is bursting...I'm addicted to the aura which provides far more healing. My bursts are reserved for emergency burst healing only....coincedently usually the same fights I'm on "healer" duty and not using DM anyway.

I honestly don't see what feat to sacrifice for Power Attack here. I like all 4 metas for Divine Punishment, Blade Barriers, and Bursts. What did you trade for it? The suggested stats I posted will end up with at least 30 STR standing...easily more with temporary buffs and better gear than the standard +6 stat.

You'll also notice, I didn't "dump" STR in the stats I posted...in fact STR remains the same as all the other builds posted so far AND allows DMII...my math example was theory explaining the potential value vs STR.

Edit: Bah! forgot the human bonus feat!....that's where power attack goes! I'm use to a dorf

Echos of power
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=342368
According to this thread...you do NOT need to take your cleric level 1st to get it

[kclark1980]

I had been getting conflicting information about the Echos from a lot of people. I decided that I would test it out. I made four characters both level 7 with the new vet.II status. First character I went c/m/c/c/c/c/c. Drained out my SP after I had entered the Water Works and Echoes kicked in. I then made a character that went m/c/c/c/c/c/c Ran back into Water works drained my SP pool and Echoes did not kick in. I also performed the test with c/f/c/c/c/c/c and Echoes kicked in and then with f/c/c/c/c/c/c and it did not trigger. I changed the class just in case it was a fluke that Monk was the reason that it would not trigger.

I would be very happy to be proven wrong but from what I have been able to test Cleric must be taken at level 1. I do want to take 3 Monk specific feats so tanking Monk at level one would be great so I could start with the wraps and gear from the starter quest but I'm not willing to give up the Echoes.

How do you take a screen shot? When I get home I will post my findings with the 4 different characters.

[Cyiwin]

I had been getting conflicting information about the Echos from a lot of people. I decided that I would test it out. I made four characters both level 7 with the new vet.II status. First character I went c/m/c/c/c/c/c. Drained out my SP after I had entered the Water Works and Echoes kicked in. I then made a character that went m/c/c/c/c/c/c Ran back into Water works drained my SP pool and Echoes did not kick in. I also performed the test with c/f/c/c/c/c/c and Echoes kicked in and then with f/c/c/c/c/c/c and it did not trigger. I changed the class just in case it was a fluke that Monk was the reason that it would not trigger.

I would be very happy to be proven wrong but from what I have been able to test Cleric must be taken at level 1. I do want to take 3 Monk specific feats so tanking Monk at level one would be great so I could start with the wraps and gear from the starter quest but I'm not willing to give up the Echoes.

How do you take a screen shot? When I get home I will post my findings with the 4 different characters.

Thanks for doing the legwork here, I'm surprized it works this way. I wonder if it is WAI...

[Phidius]

I had been getting conflicting information about the Echos from a lot of people. I decided that I would test it out. I made four characters both level 7 with the new vet.II status. First character I went c/m/c/c/c/c/c. Drained out my SP after I had entered the Water Works and Echoes kicked in. I then made a character that went m/c/c/c/c/c/c Ran back into Water works drained my SP pool and Echoes did not kick in. I also performed the test with c/f/c/c/c/c/c and Echoes kicked in and then with f/c/c/c/c/c/c and it did not trigger. I changed the class just in case it was a fluke that Monk was the reason that it would not trigger.

I would be very happy to be proven wrong but from what I have been able to test Cleric must be taken at level 1. I do want to take 3 Monk specific feats so tanking Monk at level one would be great so I could start with the wraps and gear from the starter quest but I'm not willing to give up the Echoes.

How do you take a screen shot? When I get home I will post my findings with the 4 different characters.

The part you're missing is logging out and logging back in before you go to Water Works and drain your SP pool.

I use "Ctrl + P" to take a screenshot, and it puts it in a folder called "DDO Screenshots" in "My Documents".