The slightly less simple AC solution

[Cyr]

Many seem to agree that AC is an issue. Many also agree that a wider range of AC should be viable.

Personally I think all AC numbers from 1 to some high number compared to a mobs to hit modifier should do something for you if you bump it up by a point.

So here is the slightly less simple AC solution that I am sure could be tweaked some...

I call it the 25/50/25 solution.

How it works is a mob rolls a percentage dice for each attack (kind of like what they do now regarding incorporeal miss chance and such). This roll then determines what range of ACs they are now rolling to hit as follows.

If they roll 1-25 (25% chance), they then roll a dice equal to (their to hit bonus +10)/2 (from the original to hit score they had) and they then hit all ACs less then or equal to that amount. So a mob that has a +79 to hit now who rolled 1-25 on the initial d100 (or 25% of the time) would then roll a d45 as their actual to hit roll. So 25% of the time the mob would just whiff against anyone with a 46 or higher AC and then would have an equal chance of rolling any AC from 1 to 45.

If they roll 26-75 (50% chance), they then roll the same secondary dice as above but they add the size of that dice to their to hit roll. So in the +79 to hit mob example it would be 1d45 + 45 that they rolled. So 75% of the time for that mob they would whiff against a 91 AC toon and 50% of the time they would have an equal chance of rolling any AC from 46 to 90.

If they roll 76-100 (25% chance), they then roll the same secondary dice as above but they would add twice the size of that dice to their to hit roll. So in the +79 to hit mob example it would be a 1d45 + 90 that they rolled. So 25% of the time that mob would have an equal chance of rolling any AC from 91 to 135.

There would be no auto hit/miss chance in this system as it would be redundant. Same goes for grazing hits they would be done away with also.

Crits would be threatened on rolls from the first dice rolls proper percentage (ie a 20 crit range would be 5% of the time so 96-100, 19-20 would be 10% of the time so 91-100)...this could instead be shifted to the secondary roll in the proper AC ranges to preserve full adherence to top end of the AC rolled strictly being tied to critical threats.

TLDR:

Change to hit rolls (for everyone) to two rolls. First is a 1d100 that determines what modifier is added to the second roll. Second roll = 1d((the mobs to hit bonus +10)/2) + modifer based on first roll. The modifier added from the first roll 25% of the time is 0, 50% of the time is equal to the dice of the second roll, and 25% of the time is equal to that same dice times two.

This would make AC ranges 1 through (monsters attack bonus* + 10)*1.5 increase the miss chance from a monster for each additional point of AC added with the middle third of that range resulting in twice as much benefit. So the midrange matters twice as much as the very low and very high end.

Some math will follow in later posts.

[Cyr]

To Hit 10
Secondary Dice Size 10
AC / Chance to be hit / Effective % damage reduction for this AC compared to one less
1 100%
2 95% 5%
3 93% 3%
4 90% 3%
5 88% 3%
6 85% 3%
7 83% 3%
8 80% 3%
9 78% 3%
10 75% 3%
11 70% 7%
12 65% 8%
13 60% 8%
14 55% 9%
15 50% 10%
16 45% 11%
17 40% 13%
18 35% 14%
19 30% 17%
20 25% 20%
21 23% 11%
22 20% 13%
23 18% 14%
24 15% 17%
25 13% 20%
26 10% 25%
27 7% 33%
28 5% 50%
29 2% 100%
30 0%

[SiliconScout]

What the hell was that!

[Teharahma]

You may want to redo the second post

[Cyr]

To Hit 79
Secondary Dice Size 45
AC / Chance to be hit / Effective % damage reduction for this AC compared to one less
1 100%
2 99% 1%
3 98% 1%
4 98% 1%
5 97% 1%
6 97% 1%
7 96% 1%
8 96% 1%
9 95% 1%
10 94% 1%
11 94% 1%
12 93% 1%
13 93% 1%
14 92% 1%
15 92% 1%
16 91% 1%
17 91% 1%
18 90% 1%
19 89% 1%
20 89% 1%
21 88% 1%
22 88% 1%
23 87% 1%
24 87% 1%
25 86% 1%
26 86% 1%
27 85% 1%
28 84% 1%
29 84% 1%
30 83% 1%
31 83% 1%
32 82% 1%
33 82% 1%
34 81% 1%
35 81% 1%
36 80% 1%
37 79% 1%
38 79% 1%
39 78% 1%
40 78% 1%
41 77% 1%
42 77% 1%
43 76% 1%
44 76% 1%
45 75% 1%
46 74% 2% <- About as much less damage as a blur grants (still stacks of course)
47 73% 2%
48 72% 2%
49 71% 2%
50 69% 2%
51 68% 2%
52 67% 2%
53 66% 2%
54 65% 2%
55 64% 2%
56 63% 2%
57 62% 2%
58 61% 2%
59 59% 2%
60 58% 2%
61 57% 2%
62 56% 2%
63 55% 2%
64 54% 2%
65 53% 2%
66 52% 2%
67 51% 2%
68 49% 2%
69 48% 2%
70 47% 2% <- Not that rare for AC invested, but not pimped toons or all AC toons to hit this AC
71 46% 2%
72 45% 2%
73 44% 3%
74 43% 3%
75 42% 3%
76 41% 3%
77 39% 3%
78 38% 3%
79 37% 3%
80 36% 3% <- Old system this is 95% of the time
81 35% 3%
82 34% 3%
83 33% 3%
84 32% 4%
85 31% 4%
86 29% 4%
87 28% 4%
88 27% 4%
89 26% 4%
90 25% 4% <- Old system this is 50% of the time
91 24% 2%
92 24% 2%
93 23% 2%
94 23% 2%
95 22% 2%
96 22% 3%
97 21% 3%
98 21% 3%
99 20% 3% <- Old system this is 5% of the time
100 19% 3%
101 19% 3%
102 18% 3%
103 18% 3%
104 17% 3%
105 17% 3%
106 16% 3%
107 16% 4%
108 15% 4%
109 14% 4%
110 14% 4%
111 13% 4%
112 13% 4%
113 12% 5%
114 12% 5%
115 11% 5%
116 11% 5%
117 10% 6%
118 9% 6%
119 9% 6%
120 8% 7%
121 8% 7%
122 7% 8%
123 7% 8%
124 6% 9%
125 6% 10%
126 5% 11%
127 4% 12%
128 4% 14%
129 3% 17%
130 3% 20%
131 2% 25%
132 2% 33%
133 1% 50%
134 1% 100%
135 0%

[Krago]

So 25% of the time the mob would just whiff against anyone with a 46 or higher AC and then would have an equal chance of rolling any AC from 1 to 45.

So AC > 46 I only get missed 25% of the time?

So 75% of the time for that mob they would whiff against a 91 AC toon and 50% of the time they would have an equal chance of rolling any AC from 46 to 90.

So AC > 46 now gets missed 50% of the time on a higher roll percentage roll from the mob?

If they roll 76-100 (25% chance), they then roll the same secondary dice as above but they would add twice the size of that dice to their to hit roll. So in the +79 to hit mob example it would be a 1d45 + 90 that they rolled. So 25% of the time that mob would have an equal chance of rolling any AC from 91 to 135.

So AC > 90 gets missed 25% of the time?

Obviously some numbers are needed because from what I can glean, if my AC tank had an AC score of 91, this is what I gather:
Mob % roll
1-25 -> My 91 AC gets missed 25% of the time, meaning I take a hit 75% of the time.
26-75 -> My 91 AC gets missed 50% of the time, meaning I take a hit 50% of the time.
75-95% -> My 91 AC gets smashed 95% of the time.

Ouch!

[Krago]

To Hit 79
Secondary Dice Size 45
AC Chance to be hit Effective % damage reduction for this AC compared to one less
1 100%
125 6% 10%
126 5% 11%
127 4% 12%
128 4% 14%
129 3% 17%
130 3% 20%
131 2% 25%
132 2% 33%
133 1% 50%
134 1% 100%
135 0%

I think that with those odds, AC is still very broken.

[Cyr]

So AC > 46 I only get missed 25% of the time?

Nope, you are automatically missed 25% of the time with that AC.
So AC > 46 now gets missed 50% of the time on a higher roll percentage roll from the mob?

75% of the time the mob rolls to hit an AC number 46+.
So AC > 90 gets missed 25% of the time?
AC = 91 gets missed 75% of the time.
The higher you get your AC within the window upto 135 the more you get missed (for 100% miss at 135).
Obviously some numbers are needed because from what I can glean, if my AC tank had an AC score of 91, this is what I gather:
Mob % roll
1-25 -> My 91 AC gets missed 25% of the time, meaning I take a hit 75% of the time.
26-75 -> My 91 AC gets missed 50% of the time, meaning I take a hit 50% of the time.
75-95% -> My 91 AC gets smashed 95% of the time.

Ouch!

In Red

[Cyr]

I think that with those odds, AC is still very broken.

Let me format the math post so you can see it a little clearer. You should note that the first percentages are chance that you are hit with that AC based upon a mob with a to hit modifier of +79 (for the post I am editing atm).

[danotmano1998]

2884%1%2984%1%3083%1%3183%1%3282%1%3382%1%3481%1%3 581%1%3680%1%3779%1%3879%1%3978%1%4078%1%4177%1%42 77%1%4376%1%4476%1%4575%1%4674%2%4773%2%4872%2%497 1%2%5069%2%5168%2%5267%2%5366%2%5465%2%5564%2%5663 %2%5762%2%5861%2%5959%2%6058%2%6157%2%6256%2%6355% 2%6454%2%6553%2%6652%2%6751%2%6849%2%6948%2%7047%2 %7146%2%7245%2%7344%3%7443%3%7542%3%7641%3%7739%3% 7838%3%7937%3%8036%3%8135%3%8234%3%8333%3%8432%4%8 531%4%8629%4%8728%4%8827%4%8926%4%9025%4%9124%2%92 24%2%9323%2%9423%2%9522%2%9622%3%9721%3%9821%3%992 0%3%10019%3%10119%3%10218%3%10318%3%10417%3%10517% 3%10616%3%10716%4%10815%4%10914%4%11014%4%11113%4% 11213%4%11312%5%11412%5%11511%5%11611%5%11710%6%

Um...

EDIT: ahh. got it now, thanks for editing that.

[SiliconScout]

I think that you have it backwards.

If I read this right, essentially he's suggesting is that they roll a die equal to half their hit modifier +10 divided by 2. Lets use +80 as an easy number. With +80 to hit they roll a 80+10=90/2 = d45

01 - 25 = d45 hit roll: Auto Hit 1 ** could hit AC 2 to 45 ** auto miss 46+
26 - 75 = d45+45: Auto hit 1 - 46 ** could hit 47 to 90 ** auto miss 91+
76 - 00 = d45+90: Auto hit 1 - 91 ** could hit 92 to 135 ** auto miss 136+

So in that scenario your 91 AC toon would have exactly a 25% chance of being hit by the mob since he can't hit on a % roll of 75 or less.

Honestly the system is overly complicated and would do nothing to help lag really. Crunching more numbers is crunching more numbers however you look at it.

If the idea is to make AC relevant then I say look at doing something with a DR instead. Say take your AC and divide by 4 as a passive DR, something like that, DR checks are already made in combat so this should really add little to no overhead.

honestly I don't think there is a real solution though as they don't want you to be able to AC tank much. If you can get your AC to the point where nothing can hit you then casters are your only threat, for whatever reason they don't want that easy button.

/rant on
Face it this game has progressed to the point where AC really doesn't matter much on the player side especially after level 12 or so (with some few exceptions who are built and geared for it). It's all about how big your red bar is and how fast you can take down his red bar.

3 years from now we will see people critting with axes and Great Swords for 3000 damage and MOBs will have 8 million HP and we will all think that it's so cool because that number next to my AXE is so big. In reality what we will have done it absolutely killed the flavour builds from being at all viable.

Realistically AC doesn't matter for the vast majority, so let's just treat it as such and look at viable reasons to make Armour worth wearing (over it's properties). DR is probably the only route left there but it's just going to mean the MOBs damage will go up. Oh most people have say 25% passive DR from armour, let's just let Harry hit randomly 22-28% harder. People will feel it's doing something but in reality we are just spinning our wheels and eventually we are slaughtering anyone who doesn't have a fully optimized build. It's not there yet but it's coming.

/rant off

[Krago]

I think that you have it backwards.

If I read this right, essentially he's suggesting is that they roll a die equal to half their hit modifier +10 divided by 2. Lets use +80 as an easy number. With +80 to hit they roll a 80+10=90/2 = d45

01 - 25 = d45 hit roll: Auto Hit 1 ** could hit AC 2 to 45 ** auto miss 46+
26 - 75 = d45+45: Auto hit 1 - 46 ** could hit 47 to 90 ** auto miss 91+
76 - 00 = d45+90: Auto hit 1 - 91 ** could hit 92 to 135 ** auto miss 136+

So in that scenario your 91 AC toon would have exactly a 25% chance of being hit by the mob since he can't hit on a % roll of 75 or less.

I like this explanation and I think you are right, now looking at the numbers. Its a huge boost to those builds who did not build for AC and a huge slap in the face to those who built for AC.

[Cyr]

I think that you have it backwards.

If I read this right, essentially he's suggesting is that they roll a die equal to half their hit modifier +10 divided by 2. Lets use +80 as an easy number. With +80 to hit they roll a 80+10=90/2 = d45

01 - 25 = d45 hit roll: Auto Hit 1 ** could hit AC 2 to 45 ** auto miss 46+
26 - 75 = d45+45: Auto hit 1 - 46 ** could hit 47 to 90 ** auto miss 91+
76 - 00 = d45+90: Auto hit 1 - 91 ** could hit 92 to 135 ** auto miss 136+

So in that scenario your 91 AC toon would have exactly a 25% chance of being hit by the mob since he can't hit on a % roll of 75 or less.

Honestly the system is overly complicated and would do nothing to help lag really. Crunching more numbers is crunching more numbers however you look at it.

Yup you have the basic idea. As for lag the math involved in doing a simple d100 roll and such is preposterously easy for computers to do. Lag comes about when the server is doing complex math involving physics calculations not simplist stuff like this.

[Cyr]

I like this explanation and I think you are right, now looking at the numbers. Its a huge boost to those builds who did not build for AC and a huge slap in the face to those who built for AC.

You sure about that second part?

It is actually a heck of alot better for those builds against mobs with very high to hit scores and only moderately worse for them against the cases in which they are currently built to excel at (Harry tanking for example) due to the elimination of grazing hits.

And that is for the VERY high AC builds now. Ones which really are going full throttle. The ones who have non trivial build investments and gear slot investments are going to be running epics and seeing real reductions in incoming damage as well as against dq, velah, and elite horoth.

I can run the numbers for epic DQ/velah/lob if someone can give me their to hit modifier (and only include the areas of interest for current mid to high AC builds so my keyboard does not get worn out hitting space and enter).

[Cyr]

Um...

EDIT: ahh. got it now, thanks for editing that.

lol, yeah it is bit of nightmare going from excel to the forums. On of these days I will bother figuring out the proper way of importing it to the forums...

[SiliconScout]

Trust me you are adding lag.

Assuming that the hit die replaces (in essence the +to hit)

You remove a static die (d20) plus static bonus roll but add a d100 roll.

You are adding a lookup to determine what bonus is applied to the roll (0, die value, 2x die value)
You are adding a random die size roll (vs a static this takes more zots)

from there you are in essence using the regular routine (compare result vs AC).

the d100 roll will be the same zots as the d20 (it's a static die after all so at this point it's nothing more).
Now the next 2 are fairly simple calculations for sure but they have to be made every time a physical attack happens. Each is basically going to be about the same as the hit roll in performance hit.

In a general sense but reasonably accurate estimate you are probably close to tripling the workload of combat.

Basically that group of 4 people/hires, 2 summons and a pet (7) is putting the same load as a raid group.

And a raid group is looking more like 2.5 - 3 raid groups.

TRUST me at scale you are looking at the potential for a lag monster.

Granted collision detection is hard to manage (and that is what it uses to start this all off) but you are doing much more than a d100 random generation.

[Fecerak]

Another possibility would be to increase overall monster to-hit then have their to-hit roll be: 20% of their to-hit value + 4% of their to-hit value per number on the d20. So if a monster with +100 to-hit attacks you a 2 would be 28, 3 would be 32, 10 would be 60, etc. with autohit on 20 and automiss on 1 still. That would make lower ACs more relevant overall while still allowing turbine to have insane to-hit monsters to go thru even the highest ACs.
A monster with say 150 to-hit would still miss a 60 AC target 20% of the time.

[Cyr]

In a general sense but reasonably accurate estimate you are probably close to tripling the workload of combat.

Basically that group of 4 people/hires, 2 summons and a pet (7) is putting the same load as a raid group.

And a raid group is looking more like 2.5 - 3 raid groups.

TRUST me at scale you are looking at the potential for a lag monster.

Granted collision detection is hard to manage (and that is what it uses to start this all off) but you are doing much more than a d100 random generation.

It's the change between...

to_hit_modifier = lookup_to_hit(mob_x); //only do this on mob spawn or when their to hit value changes
to_hit = roll_static_dice(20)+to_hit_modifier;

to...

to_hit_modifier = (lookup_to_hit(mob_x) +10)/2; // only do this on mob spawn or when their to hit value changes
i = roll_static_dice(4);
if (i == 1)
{
to_hit = roll_static_dice(to_hit_modifier);
}
else if(i==4)
{
to_hit = roll_static_dice(to_hit_modifier) + to_hit_modifier*2;
}
else
{
to_hit = roll_static_dice(to_hit_modifier) + to_hit_modifier;
}

A simple bunch of if statements and an added roll is what we are talking about here with the addition operations being a wash because the *2 case happens as often as the no addition case.

[Cyr]

This is based off of the wiki's listing of a 107 attack bonus for epic lob.

To hit 107
Secondary Dice 59

AC / Chance of being hit/ reduction in hits for this ac compared to one less
...
20 92%
...
40 83% 1%
...
50 79% 1% <- Alot better then 20, but you are still not tanking
...
60 74% 1%
...
70 66% 1% <- the moderate investment in gear and build toon
71 65% 1%
72 64% 1%
73 63% 1%
74 62% 1%
75 61% 1%
76 61% 1%
77 60% 1%
78 59% 1%
79 58% 1%
80 57% 1%
81 56% 2%
82 56% 2%
83 55% 2%
84 54% 2%
85 53% 2%
86 52% 2%
87 51% 2%
88 50% 2%
89 50% 2%
90 49% 2%
91 48% 2%
92 47% 2%
93 46% 2%
94 45% 2%
95 44% 2%
96 44% 2%
97 43% 2%
98 42% 2%
99 41% 2%
100 40% 2% <- Alot better then the 95% of the time currently for tanks
...
120 24% 2%
...
130 20% 2% <- currently hit 5% of time...not that anyone hits this AC, but in comparision
...
140 16% 3%
...
150 11% 4%
...
160 7% 6%
...
176 0% 100%