The Dark Blade (STR over DEX)

[Thundaga]

I know, I know... Another Drow Rogue? Can he BE more cookie-cutter?!

I decided to follow Tihocan's guide to making a Dark Blade Rogue and I have a few questions I was hoping you guys could help me with.

I'll start by saying I'm not too fond of using Rapiers, so I'm intrigued about the variant build mentioned under Tihocan's variant list about going the STR path rather than the Finesse path and using a khopesh as a main-hand weapon over the rapier.

If I were to go this STR path as a Drow, I'm not entirely sure what I should do with my ability points on creation, but I was thinking something like this:

STR: 16
DEX: 15
CON: 12
INT: 16
WIS: 8
CHA: 11

The 15 DEX is so I may take TWF at level 1, then grab Khopesh Proficiency at level 3. I threw the last point into CHA for a bit of help with Diplomacy (along with finding a +1 CHA item to bump it to 12 eventually), as I wasn't really able to throw it into anything else other than DEX, but I could increase DEX with enhancements. Then I would continue to raise STR every four levels (with granted ability points).

I don't really know. What do you guys think? Maybe I'm just better off going with Weapon Finesse... (But I don't like rapiers...)

[Ytteri]

The biggest disadvantage of going khopesh on a non-human is you won't have the feats to get both Power Attack and Oversize Two Weapon Fighting. From your post I figure you won't have the best gear available to this character, so to hit will probably become an issue at late game. Taking both the -5 hit from Power Attack and another -2 from wielding double khopeshes without OTWF, and you'll probably struggle to hit high AC mobs at end game. You could just turn Power Attack off for those mobs, but I'm kind of biased against that, especially against things that have decent fortification too so you'll be doing mediocre damage against it anyway.

You could wield a khopesh in your main hand and go for a light weapon in your off-hand, but you'll probably want either something that's keen, or another slashing weapon to share improved critical with the khopesh, but the slashing weapons that rogues are granted proficiency in just plain suck.

That said, you haven't said why you're biased against rapiers. Is it just the finesse you don't like? There's nothing wrong with having a high strength build and using rapiers without weapon finesse. You probably won't want to dual-wield rapiers since you'll suffer the same -2 penalty without OTWF (although without finesse you would be able to pick up OTWF), but the up side is that you can go rapier + shortsword. Both are piercing so you'll have improved critical on both, and both benefit from drow racial weapon enhancements.

If you're really REALLY committed to a khopesh wielding drow, maybe a 19rog/1ftr multiclass would be better allowing you to pick up OTWF and using double khopeshes. Or since you'll get free martial weapon proficiency with fighter, you could go khopesh + kukri. Kukris are a far better light off-hand weapon than anything a pure rogue would be able to wield, and you could use the fighter bonus feat to pick up something else. Maybe improved sunder.

[Thundaga]

That said, you haven't said why you're biased against rapiers.

I know this is going to sound ridiculous, but my dislike towards rapiers is purely aesthetics.

You could wield a khopesh in your main hand and go for a light weapon in your off-hand, but you'll probably want either something that's keen, or another slashing weapon to share improved critical with the khopesh, but the slashing weapons that rogues are granted proficiency in just plain suck.

I was thinking of going Khopesh/Kukri but I didn't realize I wouldn't be proficient in Kukri.

If you're really REALLY committed to a khopesh wielding drow, maybe a 19rog/1ftr multiclass would be better allowing you to pick up OTWF and using double khopeshes. Or since you'll get free martial weapon proficiency with fighter, you could go khopesh + kukri. Kukris are a far better light off-hand weapon than anything a pure rogue would be able to wield, and you could use the fighter bonus feat to pick up something else. Maybe improved sunder.

Now that's an interesting idea... My only worry about this is that I won't qualify for the capstone.

[Ytteri]

Now that's an interesting idea... My only worry about this is that I won't qualify for the capstone.

Yeah, you can't have it all though. I've never been a fan of pure rogues personally, the capstone is kind of a drop in the ocean if you're getting assassin 3 with full sneak attack training. But that's just me. As a pure rogue drow, you could either go khopesh + sickle or khopesh + shortsword (sickle with improved critical is exactly equal to shortsword without), neither will be that far behind khopesh + kukri, I guess I was being a little over-dramatic when I said that light weapons that rogues have proficiency in suck. Crystal Cove is (supposedly) right around the corner, so if you manage to make a higher level cutthroat's small blade to accompany your main hand khopesh you'd be in pretty good shape, maybe even better than any khopesh + (non-epic kukri) combo.


EDIT: In fact the khopesh + sickle/shortsword difference becomes negligible vs. higher fortification mobs, and against lower fortification mobs who cares because your actual weapon damage will pale in comparison to your sneak attack.

[destiny4405]

drows have racial enhancements for rapiers and short swords, which give +2dmg/+2to hit. you don't need finesse to use rapiers. they work better with str. if you don't like rapiers, you could also fight with shortswords. there are some very nice SS for rogues. i would suggest going for rapier + short sword combo.

also, for ITWF and GTWF, you'll need 17 dex. hope you got +2 tome.

[Thundaga]

also, for ITWF and GTWF, you'll need 17 dex. hope you got +2 tome.

Yeah, I was thinking I could remedy that with enhancements.

Sorry that I'm not replying as fast as I could. Little busy. Also I'm still thinking about this build some more before I make any solid decisions. I think I may be leaning towards splashing fighter into the mix, though. Going for Improved Sunder sounds pretty neat, too, on paper.

More tips and thoughts on the matter are welcome and appreciated.

When I make my characters I like to throw in some actual role-playing. I had some good ideas for a biography taking into account a lot of Forgotten Realm lore, and the Khopesh would fit in nicely. Not AS important as being a viable rogue in end-game parties and guilds, though. Haha.

[Infant]

Yeah, I was thinking I could remedy that with enhancements.

No you can't. Only counting starting dex, level-ups and tomes.

[Ytteri]

Well the good news is that the price of +2 tomes has fallen drastically since U13 now that the TR junkies don't need a new set every month.

[Kmnh]

I don't really understand why you are going drow. I'd go Human, half-orc, half-elf, halfling or dwarf before going drow. Flavor reasons, maybe?

Your starting strength seems low. The STR-based rogue build works by overloading on the STR stat to avoid the to-hit issues, so you don't need to take bad feats like OTWF. This is why we start with 18 str, and why humans and the halfbreeds are usually better races for str-rogues. I don't know how to fit that into your build.

I can't think of a good way to build a self-sufficient drow rogue. Your HP will be too low to play as a mid-range melee, you will always need support from a tank or crowd control. If you are willing to let go of soloability, your build seems fine. I would hate playing that, but not eveyone likes to run on their own or to lead parties.

The usual 7 feats work: toughness, power attack, khopesh, ic:slashing, twf/itwf/gtwf. Swap the past-life feat over khopesh at cap if you can.

Oh, and don't do the fighter splash. You can't tank anyway. Stick to pure rogue, and enjoy the +2 int/+4d6 sneak attack capstone

[Thundaga]

I don't really understand why you are going drow. I'd go Human, half-orc, half-elf, halfling or dwarf before going drow. Flavor reasons, maybe?

Drow are inherently 32-point builds. As of right now, I'm strictly F2P. I don't have half-orc or half-elf unlocked, nor have I accumulated enough favour to unlock 32-point builds to use with other races. Having that said, I do very much like the Drow race based on their lore.

Your starting strength seems low. The STR-based rogue build works by overloading on the STR stat to avoid the to-hit issues, so you don't need to take bad feats like OTWF. This is why we start with 18 str

Well, in my opinion, all rogues should have a minimum of 15 DEX at creation to take TWF. Between DEX and keeping my CON up at a reasonable level while also making sure my INT isn't too low (need to take care of those traps and stuff) there really isn't many points to throw into STR right away. Also, who is this "we" you mention? I was looking at a lot of STR-based rogue builds around the forums, most builds are relatively the same as what I came up with. And just to clarify, why is OTWF a bad feat?

Oh, and don't do the fighter splash. You can't tank anyway. Stick to pure rogue, and enjoy the +2 int/+4d6 sneak attack capstone

The fighter splash isn't so that I can tank. It's so I can obtain proficiency in Kukri weapons and to gain an extra feat, as well as perhaps take Improved Sunder if I felt like going that road. But I do like the sound of the capstone, so I don't know yet.

[Thundaga]

We should let this thread die off. I should have done more planning and put more thought into this before starting the thread. My mind is racing with different strategies and it's probably best I just use the billions of other threads already populated with experts. Thanks for the help.

Is there a way to delete a thread?

[Diyon]

15 starting dex is fine, but you will need a +2 dex tome to meet the GTWF feat req's. Either that or lvl up points, which isn't so great.

Personally, I'd recommed these starting stats:

16 STR
15 DEX
14 CON
13 INT
8 WIS
10 CHA

14 con because honestly on a rogue, every bit of hp counts, you can pull off 12 starting CON, but you need very top end gear to pull it off in the end well. (Take it from me I have a drow rogue that started with 12 con, I got away with because I had a bunch of toughness feats from being 6 fighter/1 monk splashed, and then shored stuff up with gear.

13 INT. Really, on a pure rogue you will have plenty of skill points for your trap skills. The 2 points of difference on the skill mods isn't worth the drop in HP IMO. Now you'd want to have more INT if you were going INT based for the assassin stuff, but I can't really see that working out very well on a first life, STR based drow.

Edit: sorry OP, you ninja'd my posting here.