Nerf the Drizzt looking dude in Epic LoD

[Monkey-Boy]

DOTs...if it wasn't for dungeon scaling they'd be the undisputed worst thing that ever happened to DDO.

New sig, thank you!

[Monkey-Boy]

Hilarious. The minute a mob uses all the feats and tactics of a player and hits just as hard people want a nerf?

I thought this was one of the better encounters in the game BECAUSE OF that drow. Drow warriors of FR are supposed to be feared because of their battle prowess, not some push over like Malacia who just lets you beat on her for 15 seconds at a time floating there doing nothing between actions. Now if they could add 25 IQ points or so to the AI....

Read on, the call for the nerf was a sarcastic back-door to point out how lopsidedly easy the encounter is on a caster.

[Zyerz]

He does hit hard, but like the other posts said, a caster tears right through him. Although I have noticed his AC mustnt be too high... The rakshasa Gnomon is a little harder to hit, but the drow guy is just so easy to swing at him, even on epic.

[LOOON375]

The quest is fine as it is.

Quit asking for them to change stuff. It usually ends up doing more harm than good.

[LOOON375]

Read on, the call for the nerf was a sarcastic back-door to point out how lopsidedly easy the encounter is on a caster.

I have re read this thread several times and NOTHING in your initial couple of posts reads as sarcastic.

This entire point is lost on me when referring to this quest. The majority of this game is easier on casters.

Next time when you want to be sarcastic, I would suggest NOT putting it in the "suggestion" forum.

[Jay203]

DOTs...if it wasn't for dungeon scaling they'd be the undisputed worst thing that ever happened to DDO.

nope, greensteel is
if you can do a comparison of the power in the game between pre-greensteel and post-greensteel...

[biggin]

If you want to melee him just make sure the healer is on his game is all. It's actually quite fun to heal IMO simply for the fact people can be easily 1-3 shotted, even on heavy HP tanks. Not every quest needs a token pinata.

[Monkey-Boy]

Not every quest needs a token pinata.

he's nothing more than a "token pinata" to casters. He presents zero threat to them.

[Chai]

Well duh, why do you think people hate pvp. Other players can do exactly what they can do, its what DDO would be a lot more like if mobs weren't so stupid. Everyone knows this game shouldn't be any more in depth than kiting mobs through aoes, dot spamming, and insta killing.

If people hate that why on earth would they like a mob thats more player like with 100x the hp of a player?

PVE mobs dont trash talk you in general chat channels for 45 minutes after being pwned about how you used cheap tactics and rely on specific "cheap" abilities to ensure victory. When you kill them they die and you carry on with your business.

The whole reason the mobs need HP inflation is to ensure that some level of resource is used to kill them because of the fact that the AI can be strangled with a cordless phone. If epic trash mobs were 700 HP and high attack rates etc, the perchers would solo everything without any worry about having to replenish mana. The ability to game the AI is patched up rather than fixed - and done so in such a blanket way that the easiest way to kill specific mobs often times becomes the one known and used formula, and pushes us toward the "mindless grind" we all complain about.

[Missing_Minds]

"Out-gaming" the AI is DDO is a slightly greater accomplishment than beating a 5 year old at checkers.

I ask for something in the realms of serious and the best you can come up with is a 5 year old at checkers.

Then again you only prove my point.

And has already been stated, you want a smarter AI, you'll have more lag. So which do you want more? Less lag or smarter AI?

[justagame]

DOTs...if it wasn't for dungeon scaling they'd be the undisputed worst thing that ever happened to DDO.

I don't think one person gets to call something undisputed. Judging by opinions on both sides, over what is now far too many threads, I'd say it's quite heavily disputed.

Before the spell pass, casters and divines at endgame faced a situation of "well, glad you had your fun with your little toys, but now just sit back and keep the melees buffed and healed, because your spells won't even put a noticeable dent in the boss."

Going from a healbot/buffbot with a woowoo stick, to being relevant again, saved the interest of many in the game. Some of the more useless melee abilities need to be made similarly more relevant again, IMO. Simply asking for nerfs puts us back in the bad old days.

Should someone be able to perch and harm the bad guys without fear? No. But you could deal with the perching aspect, or nerf a spell. If you want a simple solution that doesn't mess with anything else, you go one way. If you just want an excuse to nerf something, you can go another.

[Chai]

Read on, the call for the nerf was a sarcastic back-door to point out how lopsidedly easy the encounter is on a caster.

Yeah, we can point that out for the entire game. The boss is = to an epic trash mob with a different HP value, which basically means moar dots + longer perch time.

It could be worse. EQs "fix" for stupid AI was to have all level 55+ mobs summon you to within melee range if you got aggro. Every single level 55+ trash mob just arbitrarily called out your name and summoned you right to its feet. "Am I experiencing rubberbanding lag or did I peeve off a high level trash mob?" - must be lag, I havent taken damage yet.

[Monkey-Boy]

I ask for something in the realms of serious and the best you can come up with is a 5 year old at checkers.

Then again you only prove my point.

And has already been stated, you want a smarter AI, you'll have more lag. So which do you want more? Less lag or smarter AI?

An what point would that be? That some consider out-smarting DDO's AI to be skill?

All games have stupid AI, PvP games are the only way you can possibly face a challenging opponent that has equal 'stuff' as you (and don't talk about DDO's PvP as the PvP in this game truly is dreadfully un-balanced and serves no purpose other than trash-talking). All other games have to cheat, for now as CPUs get faster every year and one day soon we'll see AI in game that can at least reach the level of a monkey with downs syndrome.

I want both, I want less lag and LESS EXPLOITABLE AI. If that mean changing environments to remove perches yes, I want that. Giving mobs powerful ranged attacks to prevent kiting would also be a good idea, as would giving them the ability to climb where we climb.

What bugs me about this encounter is at a time when melees are second-class citizens we get an encounter where it's almost a sure thing they will die yet it's a complete joke on a caster, we saw the same thing will many of the challenges red-names as well. it's a poorly designed encounter for that reason.

[Missing_Minds]

An what point would that be? That some consider out-smarting DDO's AI to be skill?

*sigh* That anything repetitious leads to meta gaming. Gamers want to make runs efficient, not sloppy. Gamers are always going to figure out the best way to beat an opponent, cheese or not.

Cheese is also a matter of opinion. I like cheddar and mozzarella.

edit: also a less exploitable AI also means removing diplomacy, intimidation, and any form of threat addition/reduction, while adding in healing agro as well.

[Chai]

I ask for something in the realms of serious and the best you can come up with is a 5 year old at checkers.

Then again you only prove my point.

And has already been stated, you want a smarter AI, you'll have more lag. So which do you want more? Less lag or smarter AI?

Why is that exactly? The AI has to run physics checks anyhow and it wouldnt need to run MORE to be SMARTER.

It would just need to be able to make determinations based on specific facts, which is not processing intensive at all. If <avatar> has been stopped in the same place and still cannot attack (due to perching for instance) - revert to new mode of attack, -or- the reaction could be to attack another group member.

We see it already in ogres and trolls which will pull out a bow and fire away. The issue with that is it is laughable because their rate of fire is hilariously slow. If the artificer mobs and ranger mobs had the same rate of fire as PCs the perching would likely stop and we would be debating all this in a completely different thread where the people who want their autocompletions are complaining about the AI being too smart.

[Missing_Minds]

Why is that exactly? The AI has to run physics checks anyhow and it wouldnt need to run MORE to be SMARTER.

It would just need to be able to make determinations based on specific facts, which is not processing intensive at all. If <avatar> has been stopped in the same place and still cannot attack (due to perching for instance) - revert to new mode of attack, -or- the reaction could be to attack another group member.

There is a lot more math there than what you think.

Long ago, when Codog was still a developer, we found out that the client does a LOT of smoothing for how the AI runs. Kobolds actually zig zag a lot for example, but we only see them running in a straight line. (he was tracking down a lost shot/arrow issue.)

The "stop" you mention is really.
1. store off x,y coords of npc.
2. is location within previous "spot". (this is an "is this dot within this circle" sort of trig. This IS as intensive as "I swung, did I hit" calculations that the developers reduced with nerfing TWF.)
3a. If not, update "circle", NPCmoved = true.
3b. if it is, leave "circle" be, and NPCmoved = false.
4. then you check on attacking. Has it attacked within a time frame, or has it not?

Which at this point if you think through things at all, you realize kiters and npcs with any sort of range will be stuck in an infinite loop of going after the target because they can move and can attack. So how do you break that? new target? Ok.
LOS check to PCs. (LOS is almost as equally intensive as an area hit detect)
Which is closest?
If we keep threat, do we go after that one? If so, calculate path to PC.

There is a heck of a lot of math involved, it isn't all simple binary checks. The AI can only do exactly what it is told, there is no form of abstract logic for it to make jumps of "intelligence" to game players. There are far more of us to learn from, and that which works one some of us won't work on others. So not only would it require such of the AIs, but a "DM" would have to be created to change the "over all" AI of the NPCs. Sort of like the director in L4D/2 series.

[Matuse]

Hilarious. The minute a mob uses all the feats and tactics of a player and hits just as hard people want a nerf?

If I had 45,000 HP, I wouldn't mind monsters hitting as hard as players dual wielding eSoS's.

But I don't, so I do.

[McFlay]

He does hit hard, but like the other posts said, a caster tears right through him. Although I have noticed his AC mustnt be too high... The rakshasa Gnomon is a little harder to hit, but the drow guy is just so easy to swing at him, even on epic.

Usual protocol in quite a few of the pugs ive ran this quest in amounts to melee go hide in the hallway after the rakshasha and the caster will dot/kite the drow around til he's dead. That's pretty epic game design when you are basically a piece of trash who gets in the way.

What ever happened to the good old dnd when you couldnt run backwards full speed lobbing spells endlessly while stupid mobs just got kited around waiting to die. Early turned based dnd games from 20 years ago had better ai then ddo does.

Its ok, turbine has a solution, all they need to do is inflate mob hp more and everything will work out...

[waterboytkd]

I don't think one person gets to call something undisputed. Judging by opinions on both sides, over what is now far too many threads, I'd say it's quite heavily disputed.

Before the spell pass, casters and divines at endgame faced a situation of "well, glad you had your fun with your little toys, but now just sit back and keep the melees buffed and healed, because your spells won't even put a noticeable dent in the boss."

Going from a healbot/buffbot with a woowoo stick, to being relevant again, saved the interest of many in the game. Some of the more useless melee abilities need to be made similarly more relevant again, IMO. Simply asking for nerfs puts us back in the bad old days.

Should someone be able to perch and harm the bad guys without fear? No. But you could deal with the perching aspect, or nerf a spell. If you want a simple solution that doesn't mess with anything else, you go one way. If you just want an excuse to nerf something, you can go another.

Thank you for saving me the time of saying this. DoTs made spellcasters more than a "one-of" in raid parties, and really made filling PUGs for raids a lot easier. I play mostly melees, and I never want to go back to the pre-U9 days for spellcasters.

In my mind, the only way they could do away with the DoTs is to give every caster access to SLAs that have no SP cost and a minimal (3 second tops) cooldown. That MIGHT keep them effective enough DPS to take more than one in a raid group. MIGHT. In my opinion, casters are balanced fine right now. It's melees and melee combat that needs adjustments.

[MrCow]

What ever happened to the good old dnd when you couldnt run backwards full speed lobbing spells endlessly while stupid mobs just got kited around waiting to die.

You instead did maneuvers such as casting enlarge person, equipping a reach weapon, taking combat reflexes, and making 5-foot steps away from your target, so that each time your opponent wanted to attack you they would provoke an attack of opportunity before they got in range.