Wowo's Best Pure Rogue Build

[wax_on_wax_off]

This comes up a bit and this is my take on it. There is enough AB on the build to hit epic DQ with PA on with moderate raid buffs, -1 from max possible assassinate DC (I think) - should be decently consistent on anything that can be assassinated, no fail Holy Aura scrolls, enough HP to participate in every raid/quest in the game (main target here was 500+ for epic lob), repeating crossbow proficiency for decent ranged DPS as needed etc.

Feel free to point out any glaring mistakes, just woke up from a nap.

Happy to take suggestions on tweaking enhancements.
Happy to take suggestions on tweaking gear to improve it or for specific circumstances.

Not sure whether I should reslot +2 exceptional intelligence to allow the Alchemical weapon to be used for doublestrike purposes on Assassinates, suggestions on that welcome.

I've included some hypothetical ideas such as getting enough intimidate to tank HoX on elite, this is relevant for me as if/when I try this build out I'll probably have all the gear necessary for it anyway (my completionist character).

Concept/Goals: Best Pure Rogue Build
Class: 20 Rogue
Alignment: Neutral

Stats and Race (36pt build): Half-Elf
Str: 32 (14 base +2 tome +6 item +3 exceptional +2 rage +2 madstone +3 Profane)
Dex: 28 (16 base +4 tome +1 level up +6 item +1 LotD)
Con: 38 (16 base +1 levels +4 tome +7 item +2 rage +4 madstone +3 exceptional +1 LotD)
Int: 46 (16 base +5 levels +4 enhancements +4 tome +8 item +3 insight +1 exceptional +1 LotD +2 SD +2 yugo)
Wis: 16 (8 base +2 tome +6 item +1 LotD -1 Baphomet Ring)
Cha: 16 (8 base +2 tome +6 item +1 LotD -1 Baphomet Ring)
+2 Dex Tome/32/34 point build: Goal is 21 dex for ISA, everything else into int.
Alternative: Level ups in strength is a fine alternative (possibly better for a first life build without access to cannith crafting).
Ability increase every 4 levels: As many in intelligence as possible.

Skills: Concentration, Balance, Bluff, Disable Device, Search, Open Lock, Move Silently, UMD, Spot, Intimidate, Diplomacy, Tumble (1), left overs in Hide

Feats (by level): Two Weapon Fighting (1), Half-elf Dilettante: Artificer (1), Toughness (3), Precision (6), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (9), Improved Critical: Piercing (12), Greater Two Weapon Fighting (15), Past Life: Sneak of Shadows (18), Improved Sneak Attack (21), Epic Toughness (24)
Feats (rogue bonus): Improved Evasion (10), Skill Mastery (13), Skill Mastery (16), Opportunist (19)

Enhancements (Rogue): Assassin III (8), Sneak Attack Accuracy IV (10), Sneak Attack Training IV (10), Damage Boost II (3), Move Silently II (2), Hide II (2), Subtle Backstabbing II (3), Haste Boost IV (10), Extra Action Boost I (2), Wand and Scroll Mastery IV (10), Skill Boost I (1), Deadly Shadow (2)
Enhancements (Half-Elf): Versatility IV (10), Adaptability: Intelligence (2), Racial Toughness II (3), Artificer Intelligence I (2)
Enhancements (Shadowdancer): Stealth III, Shadow Lance II, Intelligence II, Grim Precision III, Shrouding Strike III, Cloak of Shadows, Shadow Manipulation, Consume, Executioners Strike III
Enhancements (Twists): Bracer for Impact II, Piercing Clarity II, Extra Action Boost III

Epic/self sufficiency Equipment:
Head: GS +6 Charisma Skills, Air Guard Helm
Gloves: Epic Charged Gauntlets (Yellow)
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak (Toughness)
Boots: Epic Boots of Corrosion (Good Luck, clear)
Trinket: Pale Lavender Ioun Stone, Litany of the Dead
Bracers: GS +45 HP, +6 con skills MinII Bracers
Belt: Epic Spare Hand (Blue, +6 Charisma)
Necklace: Epic Golden Guile (Greater False Life)
Goggles: Tharnes Goggles
Armour 1: Epic Illusionists Robe (Blue)
Armour 2: Epic Frozen Tunic (Blue)
Armour 3: Deathblock/Heal Amp 20%/Radiant Guard Dragontouched Vestment
Ring1: Epic Ring of Baphomet (+1 exceptional strength)
Ring2: Epic Ring of the Stalker (Yellow, clear)
Mainhand: RadII GS Rapier (Holy/Flaming Burst/+2 exceptional intelligence) or a variety of HRXBows
Offhand: Epic Midnight Greetings (Good) or Epic Flameward (Green)
Quiver: Quiver of Alacrity (upgraded)

Raid Equipment:
Head: Epic Helm of Frost (Greater False Life)
Gloves: Epic Charged Gauntlets (Yellow)
Cloak: Epic Envenomed Cloak (Toughness)
Boots: (unsuppressed) Madstone Boots
Trinket: Shard of Accuracy +4
Bracers: Tharne's Bracers
Belt: GS +45 HP, +6 con skills MinII Belt
Necklace: Verik's Necklace
Goggles: Tharne's Goggles
Armour: Healing Amp 10%/Healing Amp 20%/Destruction DT
Ring1: Epic Ring of the Stalker (Yellow, clear)
Ring2: Epic Ring of Baphomet (+1 exceptional strength)
Mainhand: Holy Burst +5, 2[1d6] base, appropriate metal type Rapier of Greater X Bane
Offhand: Good/Air/Air/Air/Silver Alchemical Rapier

Details:
Assassinate: 55/57 (10+20+16 int+2 EMG+1 ship+6 SD= 56, +2 house D pot +2 store pot=58)
Consume/Shadow Manipulation: 55 (14+25+16=55)
Executioners Strike: 48 (14+25+9=48)
Sneak Attack: 126.5/hit (14d6+12 rogue+3d6 Assassin+6d6 Shadowdancer+6d6 ISA+13 gear)
Doublestrike: 12% (3% opportunist+3% shadowdancer+6% alchemical air)
Sneak Attack/second: 413.7 base or 674.5 boosted (102.2*1.92/60*126.5 base or (133.3*1.92/60*126.5*1.25)
AB: 60+ with SA (48 base/51 gear swaps/55 temporary sustainable procs/60 no PA/64 w/EMG +12 SA +8 or 12 2*destruction (18 base +5 madstone +12 strength +4 trinket +6 weapons +4 GH +5 yugo/ship +1 haste -5 PA -2 TWF +3 gear swaps +2 recitation +1 airguard +1 double madstone +4 EMG*2 swapped in))
HP: 667/767 (20 base +120 rogue +260 con +50 epic toughness +22 toughness +20 racial +30 GFL +20 toughness +10 draconic +45 GS +20 ship +50 epic=667, +40 double madstone +40 yugo +20 gear swaps= 767)
UMD: 50/53 w/Flameward (23 base +2 Artificer dilettante +2 Skill Mastery +6 GS Helm +4 GH +1 Golden Guile +3 Epic Spare Hand +3 Epic Flameward +2 Good Luck +2 ship buff/yugo +5 epic)
Diplomacy: 67 (23 base +2 Skill Mastery +20 Golden Guile +4 GH +2 GL +6 GS +3 charisma +2 ship buff/yugo +5 epic)
Bluff: 72 (23 base +2 Skill Mastery +25 Golden Guile +4 GH +2 GL +6 GS +3 charisma +2 ship buff/yugo +5 epic)
Intimidate: 62 (23 base +2 Skill Mastery +15 Epic Baphomet Ring +4 GH +2 GL +6 GS +3 charisma +2 ship buff/yugo +5 epic)
Concentration: 44 (11 base +2 Skill Mastery +4 GH +2 GL +6 GS +12 constitution +2 ship buff/yugo +5 epic)

Gear swaps:
+3 AB= Wretched Twilight+Clever +6 Cannith Crafted LGA: +20 HP Goggles of Accuracy +4+Epic Helm of Frost+Verik's Ring (+2 strength)+LotD (can maybe find a place for a cannith crafted unbalancing item for another +2?)
+20 HP= LGA +20 HP Goggles of Accuracy +4+MinII Belt+Epic Scorched Bracers+Epic Helm of Frost
48% Threat= Tinker's Goggles+Whisper Ring (+2 strength)+Awanahu's Sash+GS +45 HP MinII Bracers
84 intimidate= Upgraded Circle of Hatred+Epic Bracers/Gloves of the Claw+Epic Brawn's Spirits+bard competence song+Potion of Influence +3+Potion of Eagles Skill +3+Amara's Band (+2 exceptional charisma)+Improved Intimidate IV (temporary respec for elite HoX for instance)
56 UMD = Epic Treasure Hunters Spyglass+Amara's Ring (+2 exceptional charisma)
115% Fortification= Yugo Pot+Omniscience
Moar DPS= MinII Bracers+Colethenis' Belt+Ravager Ring (+2 strength)+LotD

[krogyy]

the poison AB bonus sadly works only when sneak attacking.

[korsat]

Is arteficer dilettante really needed?what about barbarian dilettante for more hp and dr?

[Infant]

A bit too much Int-focused for my taste, but with the gear you listed, I can imagine this works in raids. I mean to-hit-wise. Not 100% sure though .

OTOH, you will obliterate epic trash.

Infant

[destiny4405]

487 hp unbuffed is ok i guess, but i would take racial thougness III. could start with 15 con, take HA con and RT III. or maybe start with 17 con and have up to 517 unbuffed hp.

Feats (by level): Two Weapon Fighting (1), Half-elf Dilettante: Artificer (1), Toughness (3), Power Attack (6), Improved Two Weapon Fighting (9), Improved Critical: Slashing (12), Greater Two Weapon Fighting (15), Past Life: Sneak of Shadows or EWP: Khopesh or Past Life: Soldier of the Faith or Quickdraw (18)

if you're starting with 14 dex, lowest lvl you can take TWF is 3rd, if you eaten +3 tome before tr. consecutively, ITWF can be taken at 12th lvl.

Assassinate: 48/51 (10+20+14 int+2 EMG+2 yugo/ship= 48, +3/4 int tome+2/3 house D pot +2 store pot=51)

i wouldn't count yugo pot ever, as it lowers your fort by 50%.

AB: 51 base/54 gear swaps/58 temporary sustainable procs/62 w/EMG +12 SA (15 base +5 madstone +12 strength +4 trinket +6 weapons +4 GH +5 yugo/ship +1 haste -5 PA +2 assassin poison -2 TWF +3 gear swaps +2 recitation +1 airguard +1 double madstone +4 EMG*2 swapped in)

to hit is really low. 51 with PA on and light weapon in offhand, it's 46. even with +12 to hit from SA you're gonna see a lot of misses.

EMG's DPS isn't that nice even with arty in party to make it bypass bosses DR. tho, i can see that you don't have DR breakers without an arty.

well, far from my vision of best pure rogue. too much sacrifice to get assassinate to barelly work on anything else then casters.

EDT: a pure human STR rogue with 14 starting INT can have 42 (46 with yugo pots, tomes, house D and store pots) assassinate DC, while still having 18 starting STR and all lvl ups there and two free feats to choose from quickdraw/PLs/khopesh/imp sunder.

25% less chance to assassinate trash, but bringing more DPS and having enough to hit for everything in the game.

[LeLoric]

i wouldn't count yugo pot ever, as it lowers your fort by 50%.



to hit is really low. 51 with PA on and light weapon in offhand, it's 46. even with +12 to hit from SA you're gonna see a lot of misses.

EMG's DPS isn't that nice even with arty in party to make it bypass bosses DR.

well, far from my vision of best pure rogue. too much sacrifice to get assassinate to barelly work on anything else then casters.

He really isn't counting the yugo pot if you do the simple math he has it listed as ship/yugo but not counting both.

His to hit numbers already factor in power attack and twf and are fine where they are for a rogue. He will struggle a bit with high ac undead and constructs but he does list a destruction armor and a kronzeks creulty which can remedy that situation real fast.

Emg's dps is fine for non boss mobs and he does list alternate raiding gear.

I'd much rather have a high dc assassin in my epic lobs than a max out str one especially if pure. Getting rid of artificers asap is a big part of that raid. The OP also takes the important wand and scroll mast iv. This along with arti dille makes him the second best scroll healer in the game behind a full arti. He could very easily fill a second healer role in many raids that don't require mass healing.



Anyways to the OP:

Consider the epic rapier of air. It's blind effect is generally better as it works on things radiance doesn't like undead and constructs. Imp roaring will often give you +2 to assassinates. It is also much more dps. The +2 exc int though would be lost or need to be put elsewahere.

I actually like imp sunder here too as a feat maybe over your lev 18 choice. It's nice to be able to lower fort always but i like this more for your assassinates. Go up to an engaged mob hit sunder for -6 fort save (2 more if imp roaring goes off) then drop to stealth and kill.

[destiny4405]

He really isn't counting the yugo pot if you do the simple math he has it listed as ship/yugo but not counting both.

he kinda is. +1 DC from +2 int shrine and +1 DC from +2 int from yugo pot.

His to hit numbers already factor in power attack and twf and are fine where they are for a rogue. He will struggle a bit with high ac undead and constructs but he does list a destruction armor and a kronzeks creulty which can remedy that situation real fast.

in he's first number (51), they aren't. other buffs aren't really sustainable. destruction and imp destruction, help ofcourse, but it still is low. not sure about his gear swaps, as the layout is pretty confusing.

I'd much rather have a high dc assassin in my epic lobs than a max out str one especially if pure. Getting rid of artificers asap is a big part of that raid.

Beating the boss is bigger part. usually, there is a caster or two who can take care of artis. they have few more insta kills and don't need to wait 15 seconds if the insta kill fails.

The OP also takes the important wand and scroll mast iv. This along with arti dille makes him the second best scroll healer in the game behind a full arti. He could very easily fill a second healer role in many raids that don't require mass healing.

nothing wrong with that. with CMW, mass scrolls, he could even heal the group to some extent.

[wax_on_wax_off]

The first number is including PA and TWF penalties and there is an easy gear swap option to increase that by 3 to 54 sustainable. I read that poison +AB only works while sneak attacking so I'll have to move that but it still ends at 52 before temporary boosts like Titan's Grip.

52 vs 69 AC-12 from double destruction sees 3/4 hit rate vs eLailat in rage mode (about the highest AC in the game) and as soon as Improved Sunder is applied (even my rogue can apply this easily) it'll be 100%.

No AB issue that I see.

[destiny4405]

The first number is including PA and TWF penalties and there is an easy gear swap option to increase that by 3 to 54 sustainable. I read that poison +AB only works while sneak attacking so I'll have to move that but it still ends at 52 before temporary boosts like Titan's Grip.

leloric and you made me count the buffs so many times

15 base +5 madstone +12 strength +4 trinket +6 weapons +4 GH +5 yugo/ship +1 haste

unless i'm missing something, those make 52. -7 PA+TWF make 45. it's far from bad, but the there will be problems. especially if not all buffs are present. and the to hit requirements is only gonna go up.

did you test that destruction and imp destruction stacks for up to -12 ac? last thing i read was that they stack, but to -8 max.

[wax_on_wax_off]

leloric and you made me count the buffs so many times



unless i'm missing something, those make 52. -7 PA+TWF make 45. it's far from bad, but the there will be problems. especially if not all buffs are present. and the to hit requirements is only gonna go up.

did you test that destruction and imp destruction stacks for up to -12 ac? last thing i read was that they stack, but to -8 max.

Resummed the AB, my apologies, the figure see sawed up and down as I worked through gear sets. I've put PL: SotF in as the feat so +3 can be added to the AB calcs though I haven't included it as it isn't readily available.

The way I read it against one of the highest AB foes around - epic Lailat - a lot of things would have to go wrong for AB to be an issue:

• No Improved Sunder being used (-3 AC and fort reduction gives more SA AB)
• No FvS Aura available (to debuff fort to get SA AB bonus more often)
• No Acid Fog available
• No Bard Song available
• Titan's Grip not active (usually isn't difficult to time it to have it active between madstones for 25%)
• No Flanking Bonus
• No Enchant Weapons available

In any other quest there shouldn't be any issue whatsoever as far as I can see (unless coping with stacked death penalties and/or vs 100% fort foes like undead and golems with very high AC - not too many of those in the game).

Not sure if Improved Destruction/Destruction stacks to -8 or -12, happy to take advice on this point.

Pretty sure enchant weapon scrolls aren't available for purchase which is unfortunate.

If any of the above circumstances start to stack together turning off PA is an easy fix but this should be an irregular occurrence.

[destiny4405]

well, any rogue build that can hit enemies and have around 500 unbuffed HP is a good one in my book

do you plan on rolling one?

[Gridwalker]

Assassinate is overrated. 42 DC is enough for u to do what u are needed (kill drow casters on epic). Anything else its wizard job. That's why I put levels in to con. Dead rog don't do damage. U need to hit 500 unbuffed. All above that is just overkill.

To hit is always a issue. Pure dex rog is better for this with right weapons but they lack ability to do damage to raid bosses. And weapon finesse is needed for all other weapons except those few that use dex for to hit and damage. All assassin rogs must use scrolls, flanking, poison, past life: sneak of shadows, to hit items, highest bonuses to hit and damage, +5 SA item, exp SA item, yugo pots, madstoneboots, rage, haste, etc. All this is not so hard to get, but its not newb friendly.

Gear is more or less hard to get for full epic rog, but its reachable.

Final verdict: Drop int, boost str or con.

[wax_on_wax_off]

well, any rogue build that can hit enemies and have around 500 unbuffed HP is a good one in my book

do you plan on rolling one?

I've wanted to for a long time but play time is somewhat limited at the moment. Once I hit an acceptable crafting level on my crafting toon I will be TR'ing continuously for some time so will hopefully try this build for a life.

Assassinate is overrated. 42 DC is enough for u to do what u are needed (kill drow casters on epic). Anything else its wizard job. That's why I put levels in to con. Dead rog don't do damage. U need to hit 500 unbuffed. All above that is just overkill.

To hit is always a issue. Pure dex rog is better for this with right weapons but they lack ability to do damage to raid bosses. And weapon finesse is needed for all other weapons except those few that use dex for to hit and damage. All assassin rogs must use scrolls, flanking, poison, past life: sneak of shadows, to hit items, highest bonuses to hit and damage, +5 SA item, exp SA item, yugo pots, madstoneboots, rage, haste, etc. All this is not so hard to get, but its not newb friendly.

Gear is more or less hard to get for full epic rog, but its reachable.

Final verdict: Drop int, boost str or con.

42 DC is not enough. I have 49 Stunning Fist DC on my unarmed rogue (18 rogue/2 monk) and would very much appreciate more for bladesworn paladins and a few other mobs who are tricky to get, getting to 47 assassinate DC isn't enough and more is always better.

500 HP unbuffed (no madstone, rage, ship buff I assume?) isn't needed. With the HP that this build has it wouldn't be unreasonable to tank in epic quests if there wasn't anyone better (Healing amp+hate+guards is better than a WF Barbarian for instance).

HP that IS needed is 500+ for epic lord of blades, sustainable buffs can be included in that (but not, for instance, madstone unless lots of clickies as he shouldn't hit you enough for it to stay active). 547 or 647 depending on buffs and gear swaps is plenty, more con isn't needed.

I've shown mathematically how the build, with the listed equipment, tackles AB issues. Past lives can also contribute hugely to tackling those issues and those options haven't been included. More strength isn't needed.

I don't plan on anything being anyone elses job. On my rogue I have played the roll of Crowd Controller, Healer and Tank in a variety of epic quests (eTTT and eLoD come to mind). If you want a versatile character, build for it, if you want to pigeon hole yourself then that's fine too.

[Gridwalker]

I don't plan on anything being anyone elses job. On my rogue I have played the roll of Crowd Controller, Healer and Tank in a variety of epic quests.

Rog is neither of that. Even my not so uber rog, with not as much gear as u listed, tanked some content but its depleting for healers. I scroll healed tanks in raids when needed and one shot epic casters. But all that is nothing compared to dps out when i stand near mob/boss. From my point of view, my job as a rog is to have at least kills as whole party together (In a average epic gear party). I played with 49 dc assassinate rog in party, and even with such a high dc, he didnt contribute as much as my 42 dc rog did.

Beauty of the rog is that u cant have it all, u need 4 stats, or 3 if u dump dex or if u dump cha, hell some rogs dump both dex and int and get still viable build. From my exp its wrong to dump str or con in favor of dex and int.

DISCLAIMER: My point of view is mine. Its not the truth or dogma.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Rog is neither of that. Even my not so uber rog, with not as much gear as u listed, tanked some content but its depleting for healers. I scroll healed tanks in raids when needed and one shot epic casters. But all that is nothing compared to dps out when i stand near mob/boss. From my point of view, my job as a rog is to have at least kills as whole party together (In a average epic gear party). I played with 49 dc assassinate rog in party, and even with such a high dc, he didnt contribute as much as my 42 dc rog did.

Beauty of the rog is that u cant have it all, u need 4 stats, or 3 if u dump dex or if u dump cha, hell some rogs dump both dex and int and get still viable build. From my exp its wrong to dump str or con in favor of dex and int.

DISCLAIMER: My point of view is mine. Its not the truth or dogma.

The build hasn't dumped strength or con, both are very high.
The build will still have exceptional DPS vs bosses (only loses 3 damage/hit which is 2-3%).
Player skill>build. I usually have the most kills in the party on my rogue but if I'm lazy or playing badly then it isn't guaranteed.
This build shows that you can have it all, if you have the gear and past lives (no surprise there).
I don't find it likely that you have as many kills as the rest as the party combined though I'm not sure if that is what you are saying (it's a decent goal and one that I've accomplished numerous times on my 18 rogue/2 monk build though it certainly isn't the norm with wailing arcanes).

[Gridwalker]

Wail is easy win button. Who or what can really compare with that?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Wail is easy win button. Who or what can really compare with that?

So you want to have as many kills as the whole party combined but you can't compare with wail? I'm confused.

[Gridwalker]

Just saying that casters are OP. I dont want to compete with palemasters, its utterly pointless. Competing with barbarians, fighters and other melee toons is a different story.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just saying that casters are OP. I dont want to compete with palemasters, its utterly pointless. Competing with barbarians, fighters and other melee toons is a different story.

Maybe you should make that clear when you make such statements

It should be noted that an int based assassin will fare much better against a palemaster than a strength bassed one as a larger proportion of kills will be the result of 1-hit-kills. You can also instant kill drow clerics (drow anything really), high fort mobs and other critters that most PMs will struggle with.

All this is in addition to good boss DPS, solid HP and lots of utility/versatility (as detailed in the build).

[destiny4405]

The build will still have exceptional DPS vs bosses (only loses 3 damage/hit which is 2-3%).

it's a bit more. 4 from str (2 more starting, 5 lvl ups, 1 HA), 2d6 + DOT from ravager set, 2 from kyosho set and 1 from litany (or 8 SA from tharne's if you switch from +4 attack bonus shard to goggles).

not to mention you're not using peshes.