Pure rogue-which race

[destiny4405]

The change to a % is really nice in general.

... but ... the Half Orc isn't far behind. Remember Damage Boost X is a pre-req for Assassin, so the HOrc has it too (rank 2 at least).

doesn't really matter, since as human, you use haste boost + damage boost at the same time, which only humans/helfs can do. if not used with haste boost, damage boost is slightly increase in dps, since you loose ~2 seconds while activating it.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Love my Drow Assassin.

Until Artificers came out, this was my only toon that consistantly got high kill counts.... from about lvl 5 on up to 20. Only recently have mages started to outkill me. (and I can still outkill many of those too)

oh.... and she's a Finesse build. Without Green Steel, or epic loot.

[Candela90]

Rabbit in eVon? Do you mean the northern hall in eVon5? Yeah, I can imagine I would have problems there on my str rogue. Probably time for me to learn to jump to savespots correctly.

Infant

I meant being meat in evon6 You know, the one whos to go to island first and pull agro of djinni and trash.

[Infant]

I meant being meat in evon6 You know, the one whos to go to island first and pull agro of djinni and trash.

Normally a monk does this. But even on a str-based rogue one should be ok. I would maybe equip the +10 reflex madness armor for this. Other than that, you basically have a healer attached to your back.

Infant

[Kmnh]

The half-orc has more base damage and more action boosts. A horc that specs for it can have 10 30% haste boosts and 10 25% damage boosts per rest, enough to keep boosting all the way through the harder elite/epic raids and challenges.

If you build a damage curve, the human is around 15% ahead on the first 7 action boosts, then the horc is ahead by 25% on 3 boosts, by 20% on the next 10 and by 5% when he runs out of boosts.

human/helf rogues are better for normal/hard raids and maybe epic DQ/chrono, depending on how much DPS the rest of the party does.

half-orcs are better for elite ToD, VoD, Abbot, LoB, MA ... The ones where you know the fight will take a little while.

[destiny4405]

I dont think its bad build, yes, its for max dps for raid bosses... but your dps is not a lot higer than dex rogue.
And str or dex rogues not dumping their int will be better on everything besides bosses, where they are almost equal.

my rogue on first life was dex, till i LR it into str. just switching from rapiers to peshes was a nice boon to DPS and i got a bit more damage, like i took another PA, so, it's not exactly 'almost equal'.

i can see the appeal in going int based and having high assassinate, but dex based brings nothing better to the table. a str based rogue can have same assassinate as dex based.

I dont think its worth gimping yourselves for most game content, to be the best at 1 thing.

lot's of mobs can't be SA or assassinated. elementals, constructs, undead and who knows what we'll see in the future. not to mention crystal cove and challenges, where assassinate is as usefull as grandma's teeth.

DPS is a constant, that will always work on everything, so in my eyes, others are gimping themselves to be the best at one thing.

[Candela90]

my rogue on first life was dex, till i LR it into str. just switching from rapiers to peshes was a nice boon to DPS and i got a bit more damage, like i took another PA, so, it's not exactly 'almost equal'.

i can see the appeal in going int based and having high assassinate, but dex based brings nothing better to the table. a str based rogue can have same assassinate as dex based.



lot's of mobs can't be SA or assassinated. elementals, constructs, undead and who knows what we'll see in the future. not to mention crystal cove and challenges, where assassinate is as usefull as grandma's teeth.

DPS is a constant, that will always work on everything, so in my eyes, others are gimping themselves to be the best at one thing.

I wasnt trying to tell that dex build is more dps than str - I can see numbers
Was trying to tell that:
str build with good int > dex with good int > str with dumped int
for all-game content.

On boss
str with any int > dex, but only on boss, and if dex build didnt gimp their str its not that big difference.

[Systern]

...SNIP...

DPS is a constant, that will always work on everything, so in my eyes, others are gimping themselves to be the best at one thing.

Sorry to single you out, but this sentiment appears repeatedly in the thread, so I'm using you as the example.

"If you want to raid and end-game, it's all about the red-name, where base DPS is more reliable, so GIMP YOUR BUILD TO BE BETTER AT THIS ONE THING!"

Hypocritical, non?

Kayla's posted that her dex build is viable and puts up respectable numbers. Another (I didn't note your name, sorry), has posted about team work reducing the limiting factor of fortification to 2% as well. Kayla's posted about tactics that the str builds haven't even considered. Rabbit, hunh, whatchootalkinboutwillis?

With a dex build, you have limitations to get creative within. While a str rogue may have the option to play similarly to a dex rogue, human nature and laziness typically means they won't. A dex build is more challenging and varied because your tactics and playstyle adapt to the situation presented. Intelligence isn't just a number determining your DCs.

The amount of time spent in the game "fighting trash" completely eclipses the time fighting red-names, so if you want a build that favors that, while still being viable against red names, go for it!

Str rogues I've seen generally are all "Pretend you're a barb except swap treason gear for incite gear".


I'm not sure there's a spreadsheet anywhere that can graph how much fun you'll have playing one build over another.

[destiny4405]

Sorry to single you out, but this sentiment appears repeatedly in the thread, so I'm using you as the example.

"If you want to raid and end-game, it's all about the red-name, where base DPS is more reliable, so GIMP YOUR BUILD TO BE BETTER AT THIS ONE THING!"

Hypocritical, non?

not really. i told my point of view in the post you quoted. don't have anything else to say, except, what do you mean by gimping your build?
having very high to hit, UMD enough to cast any scroll, 500+ unbuffed hp, enough skill points to max every skill that is relevant in the game, high saves, better scroll healing then most of the clerics and fvs and maxing str is gimping for you?

Kayla's posted that her dex build is viable and puts up respectable numbers. Another (I didn't note your name, sorry), has posted about team work reducing the limiting factor of fortification to 2% as well. Kayla's posted about tactics that the str builds haven't even considered. Rabbit, hunh, whatchootalkinboutwillis?

not sure what are you trying to say. been runner in evon6 lot's of times and never had any troubles. 51 self buffed reflex.

With a dex build, you have limitations to get creative within. While a str rogue may have the option to play similarly to a dex rogue, human nature and laziness typically means they won't. A dex build is more challenging and varied because your tactics and playstyle adapt to the situation presented. Intelligence isn't just a number determining your DCs.

the only thing for me that changed when i went from dex based to str based is the weapon type i used. you're either giving too much credit to dex based or too little to str based.

Str rogues I've seen generally are all "Pretend you're a barb except swap treason gear for incite gear".


I'm not sure there's a spreadsheet anywhere that can graph how much fun you'll have playing one build over another.

i'm not telling anyone how to play their rogue. was just telling my opinion. tho, i still don't see any differences in str and dex based rogue's playstyle.

[destiny4405]

I wasnt trying to tell that dex build is more dps than str - I can see numbers
Was trying to tell that:
str build with good int > dex with good int > str with dumped int
for all-game content.

depends on how much you value assassinate. would i like to have high DCs? sure. do i feel like i need it? nope.

and like i said before, there is a fair number of content, not just bosses, that assassinate doesn't help at all.

[CanuckWisdom]

H
Were talking boss beats not trash mobs and its also assuming your gimping yourself using a improved deception item.(also assuming if it even procs, proc rate seems terrible)

Gimping yourself? Improved deception is the best thing that ever happened to my assassin. And it procs a lot, on every mob I face basically, including raid bosses (allows sneak attacks for others too).

My assassin went from frustration with soloing more difficult content due to loosing sneak to trivializing it because of how fast things die when I get to sneak attack everything.

[Rogann]

Horc is easier because u dont play your rogue like rogue. You play your rogue like a barb.

I saw your thread, and your BASE hit is 35-40 + sneak attack + weapon effects.
While on my dex kukri halfling rogue I have base hit = mostly 30 + sneak attacl (which is well...higher, mostly hitting for 120-130 on raid bosses) + weapon effects.
So assuming Ill hit with sneak attack once per 5 swings and that u have better crit profile but crit less, im dont think im behind. at least not a lot.


I dont think its bad build, yes, its for max dps for raid bosses... but your dps is not a lot higer than dex rogue.
And str or dex rogues not dumping their int will be better on everything besides bosses, where they are almost equal.
I dont think its worth gimping yourselves for most game content, to be the best at 1 thing.

Besides as for pure dps build your hp is pretty low. 460 hp is good for sneaking, not agroing a lot rogue.
I would say 500+ is where u want to go.

You cant judge platstyle on how easy races play. Yes i play like a barb but if i was halfling id play the same way...

I have an average of about 42 base dmg on main hand and 37 base dmg on off hand attacks. So if your main hand is 30 your offhand is 25. Seems like alot less dps to me.

Cant really say you hit for 100 sneak attack on average. Its a big random die.

Str builds will always have more dps because dex builds limit themselves so 2 weapons that make there dmg viable. What if you need to break DR? Not only that but you can have titans grip/bloodrage/madstone ETC.

I dont think trash mobs are most of the game. A palemaster can just fly through them, also they die so fast anyways. I do traps and max dmg on bosses...Thats 2/3 things rogues can do. Having a mediocre assassinate skills means nothing imo. Its just a waste of time.

Meh 425 hp unbuffed is more then enough. Sure the bloodplate room and evon6 can be a pain but as long as the healers are doing there job i wont die.

[Rogann]

Gimping yourself? Improved deception is the best thing that ever happened to my assassin. And it procs a lot, on every mob I face basically, including raid bosses (allows sneak attacks for others too).

My assassin went from frustration with soloing more difficult content due to loosing sneak to trivializing it because of how fast things die when I get to sneak attack everything.

Well i hear its close to 6% chance(which is rather low). However i said gimping due to the fact that your either gonna use epic midnights or the epic golden guile.

[Candela90]

You cant judge platstyle on how easy races play. Yes i play like a barb but if i was halfling id play the same way...

I have an average of about 42 base dmg on main hand and 37 base dmg on off hand attacks. So if your main hand is 30 your offhand is 25. Seems like alot less dps to me.

Cant really say you hit for 100 sneak attack on average. Its a big random die.

Str builds will always have more dps because dex builds limit themselves so 2 weapons that make there dmg viable. What if you need to break DR? Not only that but you can have titans grip/bloodrage/madstone ETC.

I dont think trash mobs are most of the game. A palemaster can just fly through them, also they die so fast anyways. I do traps and max dmg on bosses...Thats 2/3 things rogues can do. Having a mediocre assassinate skills means nothing imo. Its just a waste of time.

Meh 425 hp unbuffed is more then enough. Sure the bloodplate room and evon6 can be a pain but as long as the healers are doing there job i wont die.

Do I really have to repeat myself? ;p

Il sum up. For all game content it looks like this:
STR with good int > dex with good int > STR with dump int
For Bosses dump int is ahead of dex but not that much. I mean when u hit avergae for 100+ damage per swing,
Im not trying to argue that dex build is better dps than str.
Im just saying that str build with low int is not really great. Maybe for your playstyle its good. But how u said - its not rogue playstyle. Its barb playstyle.
On bosses yes, better dmg is always ee... better (sounds weird but hope u know what i mean)
But on trash instant kill > any amount of damage

And every quest is trash+boss. For me focusing on only one of these 2 is not good idea.

And saing dex build is bad is just well....
Yes it is a LITTLE less dps, but still good enough to compare to barb and fighters, as long as u didnt dump strenght.
Also higher reflex save is really helpfull.


I hate it when people say - dex rogues are gimps, int rogues are gimps.
Welll...theyre as gimps as str builds with dumped int.

I know u enjoy playing your rogue this style, and go on Game is to enjoy, not to have perfect build.

Anyway I dont see how dumping your str a little, and putting them into int, will make much loss in your DPS.
For me 30 int 40 STR rogue > 44 str rogue with dumped int.

[Rogann]

A dex build is more challenging and varied because your tactics and playstyle adapt to the situation presented. Intelligence isn't just a number determining your DCs.

Str rogues I've seen generally are all "Pretend you're a barb except swap treason gear for incite gear".

A dex rogue(depending on the build) just has lower to-hit/dmg(also limiting themselves to 2 viable weapons). Thats about it. I cant see how having lower dps adapts you to the situation. "I cant hit this boss but im gonna act like im useful"?

Of course str builds act like a barb with incite...Rogues are meant for DPS. DPS and traps should be the pre-req for all rogues. Then focus on other things.

[Rogann]

And every quest is trash+boss. For me focusing on only one of these 2 is not good idea.

Also higher reflex save is really helpfull.

I hate it when people say - dex rogues are gimps, int rogues are gimps.
Welll...theyre as gimps as str builds with dumped int.

Anyway I dont see how dumping your str a little, and putting them into int, will make much loss in your DPS.
For me 30 int 40 STR rogue > 44 str rogue with dumped int.

Trash mobs die to quick anyways(why gimp yourself on focusing both)...If assassinate could kill orange names then yea its great but it cant.

Dex/int rogues are gimp plain and simple. Saying max str/dps rogues are gimp is like saying barbs/fighters are gimps...INT is useless for rogues just accept it.

I dont see how 30 int would help much at all. But it all depends on the build/gear loadout to acheive 30 int(assuming you actually have 40 str unbuffed).

[Doxmaster]

as i said before if i wanted a "max dps" type i'd go ftr or barb monk or even tempest rng and then focus on maxing my DPSck

Just as a side note, THIS is why rogues are sometimes not counted as DPS characters in raids.

[grandeibra]

can see the appeal in going int based and having high assassinate, but dex based brings nothing better to the table. a str based rogue can have same assassinate as dex based

What if you need to break DR?

I agree in most instances str is ofc higher dps than dex but a few comments
1) a full 'tard dex build needs only get to 13 str for PA. A full str build needs to get to 17 dex. So dex build can put more into int (or con) if they want imo
2) Breaking DR. Simple on most bosses. Put good in the red augment on your EMG/EB/S-blade and scroll/arti the adam/silver/cold iron bit. DR blunt mobs is a notable exception
3) Using dex gives you the full dex on off-hand vs half str (unless that changed, havent tested in a long time)
4) slightly better reflex saves
5) And in some cases AC I guess
6) races that fit dex builds give some dps bonuses like the +6 or 8 sneak damage/+2 extra rapier damage. Ofc str builds can use these races as well so kind of a moot point and ofc more str/con-type races have other benefits

Imho the main drawback is the extra feat needed that could be used for more dps and the fact that there are better dps weapons than the 3-4 that can use dex as damage-modifier

[Chai]

A dex rogue(depending on the build) just has lower to-hit/dmg(also limiting themselves to 2 viable weapons). Thats about it. I cant see how having lower dps adapts you to the situation. "I cant hit this boss but im gonna act like im useful"?

Of course str builds act like a barb with incite...Rogues are meant for DPS. DPS and traps should be the pre-req for all rogues. Then focus on other things.

I dont pander to the "this is how all rogues should be built" mentality. This whole "my way or its useless" stuff is hilarious.

The only boss they would have trouble hitting in raids is LOB and even then they can get a solid to-hit.

A correctly built dex rogue still outs the DPS of many builds that are considered to be more DPS than they are by the cookie cutter optimizer crowd.

It will be hilarious when necro build arcanes cant insta kill drow this summer but assassins are ruling in that content due to the fact that a blade planted solidly between the second and third rib doesnt check for SR.

BTW there was a thread a while back showing str based rogues to be about 7% ahead of dex based rogues in DPS, which is still miles ahead of most other melee. Then count the fact that they can assassinate 98% of all mobs in a quest. Its not 2009 any more where the cookie cutter khopesh builds reign supreme. Instakilling most mobs and taking slightly longer to kill the boss > having to DPS through a bunch of meatbags and killing the boss slightly faster.

[Candela90]

Trash mobs die to quick anyways(why gimp yourself on focusing both)...If assassinate could kill orange names then yea its great but it cant.

Dex/int rogues are gimp plain and simple. Saying max str/dps rogues are gimp is like saying barbs/fighters are gimps...INT is useless for rogues just accept it.

I dont see how 30 int would help much at all. But it all depends on the build/gear loadout to acheive 30 int(assuming you actually have 40 str unbuffed).

Thats what Im talking about. Seriously.
In every newbie thread botu rogue u give them advice that they should build themselves like you did.
Every toon thats not like you is gimp.
Yay... Welcome attack of clones.

I have nothing more to say seeing theres no sense in arguing with that type of person...
Totally untolerant.

Accept the fact that dex rogues, and str with no dumped int are as viable as you, and in some cases even better. Depends if we alk bout epic raid or epic quest.