Pure rogue-which race

[Infant]

I have no idea why you wanna go dex...

Best race IMO is Horc. Horcs get a perma 5 base dmg where humans get a dmg boost that averages bout 10 dmg.

Build max str, 15 dex, rest into con.(int isnt needed)

Link in my sig is pretty helpful.

This advice is very much based on your playstyle alone. This means very diffcult to obtain no-swap heal scroll UMD and useless (where it really matters) assasinate DCs. OTOH, you will perform better against constructs and undead.

It's your choice, but I wouldn't gimp UMD and especially assasinate DCs on a rogue -- you can have so much fun with it and be so effective in epics.

On a 36 pt helf/human I would go

Str 16
Dex 15
Con 15/16
Wis 8
Int 14/16
Cha 8/10

You will be a hell of a trash destroying machine and have very nice DPS against raid bosses, while maintaining full skill abilities.

Infant

[Quarterling]

You cant assume theres gonna be a FVS in the party....

Assuming your using a Evenomed blade(which i doubt) and weilding an improved destruction weapon(lets say they magically work for both hands which i dont think they do) and also assuming your sunder goes off thats a 50% fort mob will still have 12% fort...which isnt 95% of the time.

At least for me; I run with a static group so for the end-game raids there's always a guaranteed -50% fortification on the boss. We always have at least one melee (fighter or barb) that maintains improved sunder, and as I said before, improved destruction is extremely easy to maintain (usually handled by the same melee that controls AC/Fort reducing effects). Topped with opportunist, that's only 2% fortification left.

While it is true that not all rogues will be in a group that has the ability to maintain this, I realize that for some being a half-orc (or another race) may be better.

A halfing's potential is greater, but a half-orc is easier to play and therefore harder to mess up. It's pretty much a trade-off.

[Rogann]

This advice is very much based on your playstyle alone. This means very diffcult to obtain no-swap heal scroll UMD and useless (where it really matters) assasinate DCs. OTOH, you will perform better against constructs and undead.

It's your choice, but I wouldn't gimp UMD and especially assasinate DCs on a rogue -- you can have so much fun with it and be so effective in epics.

On a 36 pt helf/human I would go

Str 16
Dex 15
Con 15/16
Wis 8
Int 14/16
Cha 8/10

You will be a hell of a trash destroying machine and have very nice DPS against raid bosses, while maintaining full skill abilities.

Infant

I dont mind assassinate builds the thing i stress the most is dont let it be the focus. Get the dps feats/enhancements/and str then focus on assassinate.


10 str, no power attack, no khopeshs etc is a bad build plain and simple.

[Rogann]

A halfing's potential is greater, but a half-orc is easier to play and therefore harder to mess up. It's pretty much a trade-off.

How is a half-orc easier to play O_o. All rogues are essentially the same difficulty assuming you built the same build.

Now when the expansion hits assuming halfling racial pre is assassin and horcs is ravager. Horcs will pull ahead even more

[Demonnik-TR]

ok so other then my starting stats and that i'm not taking 2 feats(few other bits of info) you've already decided my build is horrible and gives rogues a bad name

glad to see you keeping an open mind rogann

seems you think any rogue that isn't strength build is fail
maybe you should consider the power of raising a dead cleric in middle of battle via UMD thus saving 4 other members in your party

or the solo leveling practicality of heal scrolls/cure wands
or in rare cases being able to pass the bluff/diplo checks in epic partycrashers because you didn't dump INT and actually HAVE skill points to spare(not a required part of the quest i know but still how most like to run it)

as a rogue i'm focusing on being the jack of all trades who can pull a win out of my backside in a desperate situation while relying on fort decreasing items/abilities to give me sneak attack damage(which is what makes rogue such a powerful melee anyway)

[Demonnik-TR]

also i'm scrolling insightful damage so i get INT to damage instead of STR

though i've been reading and it seems this only applies to main hand while offhand would still be str?
i'll admit this may not work as well as i plan on base weapon damage

info on insightful damage would be appreciated

[Rogann]

ok so other then my starting stats and that i'm not taking 2 feats(few other bits of info) you've already decided my build is horrible and gives rogues a bad name

seems you think any rogue that isn't strength build is fail
maybe you should consider the power of raising a dead cleric in middle of battle via UMD thus saving 4 other members in your party

or the solo leveling practicality of heal scrolls/cure wands
or in rare cases being able to pass the bluff/diplo checks in epic partycrashers because you didn't dump INT and actually HAVE skill points to spare(not a required part of the quest i know but still how most like to run it)

as a rogue i'm focusing on being the jack of all trades who can pull a win out of my backside in a desperate situation while relying on fort decreasing items/abilities to give me sneak attack damage(which is what makes rogue such a powerful melee anyway)

Assassin based rogues that arent str are fails.

I can easily scroll raise dead 100% on my rogue.

Also ill have enough skill points to get buff/diplo on a 6 base int horc...

I can build radiance khopeshs aswell...

Killing 1 trash mob can totally pull a win in a "desperate" situation.

[Infant]

I dont mind assassinate builds the thing i stress the most is dont let it be the focus. Get the dps feats/enhancements/and str then focus on assassinate.


10 str, no power attack, no khopeshs etc is a bad build plain and simple.

I agree on this. Just wanted to point out that dumping int and cha might be not the best choice for everyone. Dumping str however, I personally consider worse, IF you plan to raid.

seems you think any rogue that isn't strength build is fail
maybe you should consider the power of raising a dead cleric in middle of battle via UMD thus saving 4 other members in your party

To use Raise Dead scrolls, you don't have to have very high UMD, should be attainable on 6 starting int. I personally like to aim for 39 ship-less but GH-buffed UMD without gear swaps if possible, but that's a personal preference.

ok so other then my starting stats and that i'm not taking 2 feats(few other bits of info) you've already decided my build is horrible and gives rogues a bad name

glad to see you keeping an open mind rogann
seems you think any rogue that isn't strength build is fail

The lack of PA and very low strength greatly reduces your viability in elite raids, where raidbosses have high fortification. If you search for Dex-based rogue guides, you will see that they don't dump str. It's still your dmg modifier. And no, insightful strikes don't fully compensate this. With all the possible bonus to str, your total Str can be much higher than your total Int.

While Rogann seems to favor very specialized Rogue build type with relatively narrow focus on pure Str DPS (and sneak attack, obviously) and neglects survivability and assasinate DCs somewhat, his build would still work very well in endgame raids and epics (still not how I would build a Rogue). I'm not sure I can say the same about a build with near-dumped Str and no PA, basically you pidgeo-hole your DPS to sneak-attack-only.

Infant

[Demonnik-TR]

insightful strikes don't fully compensate this

ah useful information thank you

if i can't use insightful damage scrolls then str becomes more important and looking at my UMD score in the planner i can drop chr down and bring str up
i may be able to achieve the same build with a 32 or more str

[Quarterling]

All rogues are essentially the same difficulty assuming you built the same build.

There are many different kinds of rogues, and each different rogue build needs to have its own unique play-style in order to be effective.

Now when the expansion hits assuming halfling racial pre is assassin and horcs is ravager. Horcs will pull ahead even more

Two races, two different ways to increase dps. The halfling should be increasing sneak attack while the barbarian should be increasing "regular" damage. Because of this, the halfling's increase to damage should be larger than a barbarian's because it is more situational (due to it being sneak attack dmg). Because a good rogue should be having their sneak attacks 95% of the time, the greater increase from the halfling is much more beneficial from the half-orc.

ok so other then my starting stats and that i'm not taking 2 feats(few other bits of info) you've already decided my build is horrible and gives rogues a bad name

glad to see you keeping an open mind rogann

seems you think any rogue that isn't strength build is fail
maybe you should consider the power of raising a dead cleric in middle of battle via UMD thus saving 4 other members in your party

Actually, just ignore the character with six intelligence, they don't really make the smartest or wisest of choices.

or the solo leveling practicality of heal scrolls/cure wands
or in rare cases being able to pass the bluff/diplo checks in epic partycrashers because you didn't dump INT and actually HAVE skill points to spare(not a required part of the quest i know but still how most like to run it)

as a rogue i'm focusing on being the jack of all trades who can pull a win out of my backside in a desperate situation while relying on fort decreasing items/abilities to give me sneak attack damage(which is what makes rogue such a powerful melee anyway)

Yes, your planning and ideas look solid. The only thing is, is that while you are going to go dexterity-based, don't completely neglect strength. Of course, it looks like you already know this since in your OP you are starting with 10-12 strength. You should also use the D&D Character Planner and add your possible character to your OP so we can look it over.

also i'm scrolling insightful damage so i get INT to damage instead of STR

though i've been reading and it seems this only applies to main hand while offhand would still be str?
i'll admit this may not work as well as i plan on base weapon damage

info on insightful damage would be appreciated

I haven't really played around with ID, but it seems like a good substitute until you get Epic Midnight Greetings (that is, if you plan on getting at least one of those). Since you're a dexterity rogue, using EMGs would be highly beneficial for you.

Stuff in red.

One thing though, no matter what... get Power Attack sometime down the line.

[Candela90]

How is a half-orc easier to play O_o. All rogues are essentially the same difficulty assuming you built the same build.

Now when the expansion hits assuming halfling racial pre is assassin and horcs is ravager. Horcs will pull ahead even more

Horc is easier because u dont play your rogue like rogue. You play your rogue like a barb.
And playing a barb is: smash, smash, smash everything what moves.
While playing rogue is: sneaking and assassinating trash, using fort lowering weapons on bosses etc.

I saw your thread, and your BASE hit is 35-40 + sneak attack + weapon effects.
While on my dex kukri halfling rogue I have base hit = mostly 30 + sneak attacl (which is well...higher, mostly hitting for 120-130 on raid bosses) + weapon effects.
So assuming Ill hit with sneak attack once per 5 swings and that u have better crit profile but crit less, im dont think im behind. at least not a lot.

And im getting +9 to mine reflex save and assassination skills.

Even tho I think im gonna TR into helf str rogue this time, and see how itll go. But for sure I wont dump int.,
With lowering starting str to 18 you could have at least 12 int, which woulc allow u to get some assassination skills.
Assassination > 2 points of str.
Definitely.



I dont think its bad build, yes, its for max dps for raid bosses... but your dps is not a lot higer than dex rogue.
And str or dex rogues not dumping their int will be better on everything besides bosses, where they are almost equal.
I dont think its worth gimping yourselves for most game content, to be the best at 1 thing.

Besides as for pure dps build your hp is pretty low. 460 hp is good for sneaking, not agroing a lot rogue.
I would say 500+ is where u want to go.

And btw my rogue is first life gimp... But still doing a lot of dmg, what really suprised me.


I personally like dex rogues, and Im kinda afraid I wonr be able to do as a rabbit in evon6 as a str based (now buffed im at 42 reflex, 48 with uncanny dodge... and on 42 they still were hitting me.... on 48 not, but on str getting 42 reflex is not that easy).

[Infant]

Hello. I am somewhat new to the Rogue class and certainly not as experienced as many here.

Horc is easier because u dont play your rogue like rogue. You play your rogue like a barb.
And playing a barb is: smash, smash, smash everything what moves.
While playing rogue is: sneaking and assassinating trash, using fort lowering weapons on bosses etc.

I don't find sneaking of much use. To assasinate, I jump, hit sneak mid-air, land behind 2-3 trash mobs and assasinate. Except soloing quests, what would sneak else be good for?

I saw your thread, and your BASE hit is 35-40 + sneak attack + weapon effects.
While on my dex kukri halfling rogue I have base hit = mostly 30 + sneak attacl (which is well...higher, mostly hitting for 140-160 on raid bosses) + weapon effects.

Now I'm really wondering. I must be missing a lot of equipment for SA. What is the breakdown for this SA number? I would think

10d6 levels, 3d6 Assasin, 4d6 capstone, 12 enhancements, 8 halfling guile, 8 from +5 SA effect, 5 from +3 exceptional SA. That makes 92,5 average SA damage. 84,5 For a Horc. Nowhere near 150ish...

Infant

[maha0201]

I have tr project soon, just 1st need to do 1 ftr and 1 bbn life, maybe rgr then ill return my rog to being rog.

Plan is to go human max str 14 dex, prolly 15 con rest int for assassinate dc. I want to be able to imp sunder and slow mobs so prime choice of race is human to get 1 more feat. Not going khopesh since i have nice collection of picks and raps. With mine tome and items i plan to do ill have around 42 assassinate DC with e midnight and +6int good burst +2 ex int radII rap If that wont cut in eLob ill remove 2 points from str and slap on int and con... ( have veriks set done so min of 7 versatility + 7 haste boost at same time )

[Candela90]

Hello. I am somewhat new to the Rogue class and certainly not as experienced as many here.


I don't find sneaking of much use. To assasinate, I jump, hit sneak mid-air, land behind 2-3 trash mobs and assasinate. Except soloing quests, what would sneak else be good for?

Now I'm really wondering. I must be missing a lot of equipment for SA. What is the breakdown for this SA number? I would think

10d6 levels, 3d6 Assasin, 4d6 capstone, 12 enhancements, 8 halfling guile, 8 from +5 SA effect, 5 from +3 exceptional SA. That makes 92,5 average SA damage. 84,5 For a Horc. Nowhere near 150ish...

Infant

Soloing quests is great. thats for what I use it.

Also:
10d6 : Every odd level a rogue gets +1d6 SA
3d6 : Assassin I, II, III add 1d6 per tier
4d6: Capstone Deadly Shadows
+12: At levels 1,4,7,10 Rogues get +3 sneak attack from Sneak Attack Training AP
+8 Halfling Sneak Attack
+8 Tharne’s Goggles
TOTAL: 17d6 + 28

I corrected it to 120-130. Counted it with base number. Had to - 30.
But still its a lot more than o horc str build.

Wiht active and passive PL it will be even more.

[Infant]

Soloing quests is great. thats for what I use it.

Also:
10d6 : Every odd level a rogue gets +1d6 SA
3d6 : Assassin I, II, III add 1d6 per tier
4d6: Capstone Deadly Shadows
+12: At levels 1,4,7,10 Rogues get +3 sneak attack from Sneak Attack Training AP
+8 Halfling Sneak Attack
+8 Tharne’s Goggles
TOTAL: 17d6 + 28

I corrected it to 120-130. Counted it with base number. Had to - 30.

120-130ish counting base dmg makes more sense.

But still its a lot more than o horc str build.

A halfling is 8 pts of SA dmg ahead of a Horc, IF he can afford to take the full Guile line. Instead, a horc has 6 higher str and +3 dmg from PA enhancements. Which makes +6 total damage. This is not "a lot more", especially not if you take into account that this damage is a lot less situational than the SA damage. What goes for Halfling is the higher flanking to-hit if he takes the Cunning line.

Wiht active and passive PL it will be even more.

Active and passive PL is available to both Halfling and Horc.

Infant

[Candela90]

120-130ish counting base dmg makes more sense.

A halfling is 8 pts of SA dmg ahead of a Horc, IF he can afford to take the full Guile line. Instead, a horc has 6 higher str and +3 dmg from PA enhancements. Which makes +6 total damage. This is not "a lot more", especially not if you take into account that this damage is a lot less situational than the SA damage. What goes for Halfling is the higher flanking to-hit if he takes the Cunning line.


Active and passive PL is available to both Halfling and Horc.

Infant

Im still pretty sure I got 160 sneak attack on non crit on Velah and many times. Ill go there as soon as im off timer and check again.

anyway - I have question for str rogues(as Im considering to try one out) - do u have problems as a rabbit in evon6?
As I told with 42 reflex, 48 with uncanny dodge I still failed some saves while off uncanny dodge.

[Infant]

Im still pretty sure I got 160 sneak attack on non crit on Velah and many times. Ill go there as soon as im off timer and check again.

anyway - I have question for str rogues(as Im considering to try one out) - do u have problems as a rabbit in evon6?
As I told with 42 reflex, 48 with uncanny dodge I still failed some saves while off uncanny dodge.

Rabbit in eVon? Do you mean the northern hall in eVon5? Yeah, I can imagine I would have problems there on my str rogue. Probably time for me to learn to jump to savespots correctly.

Infant

[destiny4405]

I have no idea why you wanna go dex...

Best race IMO is Horc. Horcs get a perma 5 base dmg where humans get a dmg boost that averages bout 10 dmg.

it also works on SA, so it's about 10ish more base dmg and 20ish more SA dmg with damage boost IV. the fight needs to be really long for a horc to catch up.

[voodoogroves]

it also works on SA, so it's about 10ish more base dmg and 20ish more SA dmg with damage boost IV. the fight needs to be really long for a horc to catch up.

The change to a % is really nice in general.

... but ... the Half Orc isn't far behind. Remember Damage Boost X is a pre-req for Assassin, so the HOrc has it too (rank 2 at least).

[Infant]

The change to a % is really nice in general.

... but ... the Half Orc isn't far behind. Remember Damage Boost X is a pre-req for Assassin, so the HOrc has it too (rank 2 at least).

But the human/helf will use this WITH the Haste boost 4, not INSTEAD of it.