Terror Archer

[Doxmaster]

Ok, so you essentially had the same to hit ability with your build. Doesnt seem like you scapped him early. Did you scrap him because he could not hit ever in end game content?

I wasn't quote satisfied with how he played; I intended to create an archery DPS+caster, but I found his archery wasn't powerful enough A +1res once it came out to pick up a ranger level and more strength at the cost of con didn't do anything but make him a bit squishier; the increase in damage was minimal.

To hit never seemed to be a problem. I just couldn't spec enough damage in to make archery feel useful; I only ever seemed to terror->Curse->Finger. The fact that I was doing this made doing any damage at all pointless, since it was almost always a straight kill anyway.

Let's see in my first post I addressed the bow strength issue. I direct you there for that answer. Plus in another response I pointed out the need for bow strength on an archer build. I am confused, do you think I have now changed my mind?... I havent.

Your first post said...well, actually I can just quote it.

Edit: ****, I missed bow strength. I can squeeze it in with past lives of wizard to make up for spell pen and taking half elf ranger dili. Or possibly replace quicken with Greater necro focus if that is possible.

Which tells me you wanted Bow strength, but not why. Moving on to the second time you mention the feat...

Strength is needed for bow damage. Without strength no point in bow use.

So...you believe bow use without Bow Strength is pointless, most likely because you would do less damage witohut the feat. However, the amount of damage you are putting out WITH bow strength is, in my opinion, too low for getting the feat to be worth losing points elsewhere. This IS INDEED a MinMax approach, but it is one that respects archery in general; we seem to have the same understanding that debuffing and weapon procs are highly important, so your hostility is, in my opinion, undeserved.

It seems you agree, so should you not be pointing this out to others who think a min/max approach in just INT and Con is all that is necessary. You seem to have special experience with an arcane range build that starts with 16 dex. I certainly would find it useful to hear your views on the issue, as opposed to the third degree.

Leveling was a painful process. From 1-9 or so, archery offered infinitismal damage and weapon procs were unheard of. Suddenly at 10+ a whole world of options opened up. Feats fell into place, special bows were available...Archery was worth it to me.

From then onward, I somewhat enjoyed archery...until I started leveling a ranger as well. His raw damage and endurance was something I couldn't match with bows alone, though the Spell-archer had much more gear behind him. I realized more and more that his spells were his saving grace and archery was...something like a hobby. So I shelfed him, alongside my original tune, a Necromancer DC Wizard.

Once Res/reincarnating came out, I gave him a go again, 'fixing' him. His numbers were better, but the difference between my Pure Caster Wizard, my Archer-Ranger and the Spell-bow Wizard was too great. The both the ranger and PureWiz had greater durability.

Both were more destructive and appreciable in pugs, since they could hit the normal roles hard and still play around with their own special little thing (the ranger could swap from melee to ranged as needed, doing the most damage possible in a given situation. If things went wrong, he could heal to some extent too. The Wizard was my Necromancer/Enchanter/Pet master but still did his role as a Burst nuker and Insta killer when necessary) while the Spell-bow was shoehorned into bow+DC spells. Getting Max and Empower late into his build certainly made it more painful.

As for equipment and bows, this really is another trivial question. I will use Lit II by 11th level and a crafted item (as well as up to half a dozen other specialized bows). At capped levels I swap pretty frequently between Lit II and Elemental bow (the 16th level version since it typically does more damage). I have plenty of epic rewards to make an epic elemental but as of yet have no need. Much of questing involves using the correct arrows on the correct target. The only bow I desire that I dont have is Unwavering ard, and that one has less of bonus to hit and I really dont think it can outperform the bows that I use anyway so really does not impact this argument. Bows are incredibly easy to make and get. Do you find otherwise?

I dont have epic to hit items. Never had a need to get them as of yet. You can craft similar bonuses on single items. For example, +4 to hit I will be running with at low levels in a single item (as opposed to say Vulk set).
...
In these forums new ideas are generally poorly received. I clearly see that is the case here.

So you DO have gear prepared for him. That's good; I had to level my Spell-Bow wizard and collect gear as I went.

New ideas are rarely new on this forum; this has come up several time, I'm sure. The problem here is a combination of lack of information (see how I needed to dog you to get you to admit you had gear prepared?) and jaded people who know the game all too well. MinMaxing is very important, as is straight durability; this character is not the peak of either, though it does bring a mixture of things to the table.

As you would have even higher DCs with 18 int, they are saying the character isn't good. A 1-DC difference.

Since you could have higher con, they are saying it isnt good. A 40 HP difference (20 if you stay elf)

Since a different type of character would have higher bow damage, they are saying yours isn't good. Two or three times the base arrow damage and the same additional damage from procs; perhaps 50% more damage.

You are choosing to be 'alright', in extra fields when you have the option of being 'the best' in one or two fields. Since your tone is combative (it seems you already have the ire of several posters here, so that certainly doesn't help) and are deliberately choosing not to be as strong as you could be in a traditional role, you have most posters here in a tizzy.

If you were less (offensively) defensive and gave a bit more info, this would have gone over swimmingly. Of course, since you seem to have a history with several posters here, correcting this would require analyzing every post in this thread instead of just yours; at least then you would be completely in the right though.

[MrCow]

One of the game play mechanical issues that will hinder this build is that casting a spell invokes the global cooldown and that bows must wait for the global cooldown to fade before being able to fire a shot. This means a character trying to mix magic and archery is going to be waiting a little over 1 second between the end of casting a spell and the start of firing the bow (which, if you are constantly reapplying damage over time spells, starts to greatly detract from your archery damage, especially in your Manyshot timeframe).

[Doxmaster]

One of the game play mechanical issues that will hinder this build is that casting a spell invokes the global cooldown and that bows must wait for the global cooldown to fade before being able to fire a shot. This means a character trying to mix magic and archery is going to be waiting a little over 1 second between the end of casting a spell and the start of firing the bow (which, if you are constantly reapplying damage over time spells, starts to greatly detract from your ranged damage, especially in your Manyshot timeframe).

How do you even know these things?

How is this possible? I swear I've seen you correcting Devs before; this is madness.

[tinyelvis]

One of the game play mechanical issues that will hinder this build is that casting a spell invokes the global cooldown and that bows must wait for the global cooldown to fade before being able to fire a shot. This means a character trying to mix magic and archery is going to be waiting a little over 1 second between the end of casting a spell and the start of firing the bow (which, if you are constantly reapplying damage over time spells, starts to greatly detract from your archery damage, especially in your Manyshot timeframe).

Wow, just wow.

Ok, I dont even notice this while playing a divine archer. I constantly cast Divine punishment while I fire my bow. Trouble is, the DP on my divine archer is capped at 12th level. It started me thinking that two stackable DOTs with a wizard would really be sweat.

Again, I did not even notice this. But will look for it next time I play the divine archer. Note, I cast both while many and 10k are running.

When I go into caster mode, I use auto attack. Perhaps this has an effect? Also, i do not play with auto target. I hand target everything. I have my targeting key mapped to space bar for quick flip thru's.

[tinyelvis]

I wasn't quote satisfied with how he played; I intended to create an archery DPS+caster, but I found his archery wasn't powerful enough A +1res once it came out to pick up a ranger level and more strength at the cost of con didn't do anything but make him a bit squishier; the increase in damage was minimal.

To hit never seemed to be a problem. I just couldn't spec enough damage in to make archery feel useful; I only ever seemed to terror->Curse->Finger. The fact that I was doing this made doing any damage at all pointless, since it was almost always a straight kill anyway.



Your first post said...well, actually I can just quote it. Which tells me you wanted Bow strength, but not why. Moving on to the second time you mention the feat...

So...you believe bow use without Bow Strength is pointless, most likely because you would do less damage witohut the feat. However, the amount of damage you are putting out WITH bow strength is, in my opinion, too low for getting the feat to be worth losing points elsewhere. This IS INDEED a MinMax approach, but it is one that respects archery in general; we seem to have the same understanding that debuffing and weapon procs are highly important, so your hostility is, in my opinion, undeserved.



Leveling was a painful process. From 1-9 or so, archery offered infinitismal damage and weapon procs were unheard of. Suddenly at 10+ a whole world of options opened up. Feats fell into place, special bows were available...Archery was worth it to me.

From then onward, I somewhat enjoyed archery...until I started leveling a ranger as well. His raw damage and endurance was something I couldn't match with bows alone, though the Spell-archer had much more gear behind him. I realized more and more that his spells were his saving grace and archery was...something like a hobby. So I shelfed him, alongside my original tune, a Necromancer DC Wizard.

Once Res/reincarnating came out, I gave him a go again, 'fixing' him. His numbers were better, but the difference between my Pure Caster Wizard, my Archer-Ranger and the Spell-bow Wizard was too great. The both the ranger and PureWiz had greater durability.

Both were more destructive and appreciable in pugs, since they could hit the normal roles hard and still play around with their own special little thing (the ranger could swap from melee to ranged as needed, doing the most damage possible in a given situation. If things went wrong, he could heal to some extent too. The Wizard was my Necromancer/Enchanter/Pet master but still did his role as a Burst nuker and Insta killer when necessary) while the Spell-bow was shoehorned into bow+DC spells. Getting Max and Empower late into his build certainly made it more painful.



So you DO have gear prepared for him. That's good; I had to level my Spell-Bow wizard and collect gear as I went.

New ideas are rarely new on this forum; this has come up several time, I'm sure. The problem here is a combination of lack of information (see how I needed to dog you to get you to admit you had gear prepared?) and jaded people who know the game all too well. MinMaxing is very important, as is straight durability; this character is not the peak of either, though it does bring a mixture of things to the table.

As you would have even higher DCs with 18 int, they are saying the character isn't good. A 1-DC difference.

Since you could have higher con, they are saying it isnt good. A 40 HP difference (20 if you stay elf)

Since a different type of character would have higher bow damage, they are saying yours isn't good. Two or three times the base arrow damage and the same additional damage from procs; perhaps 50% more damage.

You are choosing to be 'alright', in extra fields when you have the option of being 'the best' in one or two fields. Since your tone is combative (it seems you already have the ire of several posters here, so that certainly doesn't help) and are deliberately choosing not to be as strong as you could be in a traditional role, you have most posters here in a tizzy.

If you were less (offensively) defensive and gave a bit more info, this would have gone over swimmingly. Of course, since you seem to have a history with several posters here, correcting this would require analyzing every post in this thread instead of just yours; at least then you would be completely in the right though.

You are correct. I became frustrated at some of the comments and lost all patience. A very poor reaction on my part.

Bows have come a long way since just a few months ago. With cannith bows and cannith crafted bows and items, i can get things like +4 attack and ranged alacrityat pretty low level (as opposed to epic items). Plus I have a bow for every odd occasion (i.e. the best undead bow, best elemental bow....) I think we really are in a renaissance period with ranged combat.

My current divine archer puts out good damage for a ranged, but it is lacking of course wrt certain mobs (especially self healing high hp mobs). I constantly augment his bow damage with spells like divine punishment during solo high end questing. Sometimes it is not enough, like when i tried to solo devils in the vale on elite at level or spawn of whisperdoom.

Mr Cows comments may have just ruined it all for me though. I hate not being efficient. I am guessing the next time I play the divine ranged dude I may lose a lot of interest in him.

[tinyelvis]

One of the game play mechanical issues that will hinder this build is that casting a spell invokes the global cooldown and that bows must wait for the global cooldown to fade before being able to fire a shot. This means a character trying to mix magic and archery is going to be waiting a little over 1 second between the end of casting a spell and the start of firing the bow (which, if you are constantly reapplying damage over time spells, starts to greatly detract from your archery damage, especially in your Manyshot timeframe).

Just checked this on the training dummy. You essentially lose a shot each time you cast. Actually this seems kinda WAI, otherwise you could do two things at once.... like cast and shoot simultaneously.

[uthanak69]

As for intelligence, this toon can have at least
16 base
5 levels
3 Enhancements
10 Item bonus
4 Tome
1 Litany
2 Capstone
2 Lich form
43 total < ----- I will have 42, 44 with yugo, 46 with store

19 Base
17 Stat Bonus (19 with pots)
2 focus
2 item
1 Enhancement

Which is 41 to 43 necro DC.

Both the Intelligence and the DC are higher than the typical wizard. With a wizard past life this would go one higher. I see issues with this build but its not intelligence and/or spell DC.

Your 42 is what typical wizards have. This is what would be higher.


18 base
5 level ups
3 enhancement
2 lich form
2 cap stone
6 item
1 litany
1 exceptional
2 exceptional
4 tome
2 alchemical
2 ship

- 48 (50 with yugo pots)

[wax_on_wax_off]

Just checked this on the training dummy. You essentially lose a shot each time you cast. Actually this seems kinda WAI, otherwise you could do two things at once.... like cast and shoot simultaneously.

If you're only shooting 1/second then something is wrong.

- 48 (50 with yugo pots)

I'm sitting on 48 with yugo/ship buff on my first life drow wizard which gives me DCs of 43/41/41, I'll look forward to improving that with LotD/+3 tome and a PL (I'll probably settle for 44/42/42, elf, ~35-37 spell pen as a second life build).

[Missing_Minds]

How do you even know these things?

How is this possible? I swear I've seen you correcting Devs before; this is madness.

Probably because like me he's done it. I completely forgot about that because it is the exact reason I couldn't stand the warchanter AA I was making. I got to level...7 or 8 before I said "forget this."

And you have seen him correct Devs.

[Chai]

I would ask you to look again.

You essentially lose one DC point. You gain Boss DPS. You gain the ability to easily deal with masses of Drow or other high spell resistant foes. There is no way any pure archer build can out perform this toon in epic play. It can insta kill trash and Dot bosses. There is no way any pure PM can put up as much boss DPS as this build. It can put up equivalent spell damage and add bow DPS. How do you figure it is weaker?

You folks read thru the whole build before commenting. That is why I posted here. I expected more. What bothers me most here is spell penetration.

I dont think so. How are you specced FULLY in ice and lightning, AND arcane archer AND pale master with 80 AP.

Someone who can keep ice and lightning DOT on plus cast SLAs or other single target nukes own an archer in single target DPS. I put my money on the pure PM for boss DPS. You had to make a sacrifice somewhere to get the AA stuff. Looks like you sacced the crit lines for both DOTs.

(you also have 81 AP there)

I like the build, because it brings no opportunity cost DPS to the table - but claiming it can DOT just as well as a PM is incorrect. Boss DPS would be in favor of a pure wiz once they start bouncing that polar ray around.

Wizard Master of Magic 2
Wizard Pale Master I 4
Wizard Pale Master II 2
Wizard Pale Master III 2
Wizard Intelligence III 12
Wizard Energy of the Scholar III 6
Shroud of the Lich 2
Elven Arcanum III 6
Elven Ranged Attack II 6
Elven Dexterity I 2
Racial Toughness I 1

Storm Manipulation VII, Deadly Shocks I, Charged Spellcasting I 9
Frost Manipulation VII, Deadly Ice I, Glacial Spellcasting I 9
Acid Manipulation I, Deadly Acid I, Corrosive Spellcasting I 3
Force Manipulation I, Kinetic Spellcasting I 2

Elven Arcane Archer I 4
Arcane Archer (Conjure +2 Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Conjure +3 Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Conjure +4 Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Conjure +5 Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Imbue Acid Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Imbue Explosive Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Imbue Force Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Imbue Slaying Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Imbue Terror Arrows) 1

[DeafeningWhisper]

Why not splash arty instead? You can still range dps, need only 2 feat (PBS, IC:Ranged) and use de-buff repeater xbows (which is basically a permanent 11-15 BAB Manyshot). You get a runearm for extra damage (Lucid Dreams has Sup Potency VI and Toven Torc like effect), trap skills and if you're willing to stick to DoTs for your main casting DPS you can splash more then the minimum of 2 lvls and go for 6 lvls: for Endless, Ele Weapons and Insightful Damage.

For archery to be halfway viable it has to be the main priority of the build, you don't build a toon that can do something and add archery on top of it, you make an archer and build the toon around it.

P.S. Darn it, now I feel like trying out a wiz 12, arty 8 build...

[MRMechMan]

Some thoughts...

Doesn't 10 BAB mean only 2 arrows for manyshot?

Even with DP clickies I see you missing a lot...

Enhancements are already fairly tight for palemasters already.

It's a cool concept but ranged+arcane doesn't really mesh all that well.

Sometimes it looks like you have the best of both worlds with a build...but you really have a character that can't do anything well.

But, I'd love to be proven wrong.

[tinyelvis]

I dont think so. How are you specced FULLY in ice and lightning, AND arcane archer AND pale master with 80 AP.

Someone who can keep ice and lightning DOT on plus cast SLAs or other single target nukes own an archer in single target DPS. I put my money on the pure PM for boss DPS. You had to make a sacrifice somewhere to get the AA stuff. Looks like you sacced the crit lines for both DOTs.

(you also have 81 AP there)

I like the build, because it brings no opportunity cost DPS to the table - but claiming it can DOT just as well as a PM is incorrect. Boss DPS would be in favor of a pure wiz once they start bouncing that polar ray around.

Wizard Master of Magic 2
Wizard Pale Master I 4
Wizard Pale Master II 2
Wizard Pale Master III 2
Wizard Intelligence III 12
Wizard Energy of the Scholar III 6
Shroud of the Lich 2
Elven Arcanum III 6
Elven Ranged Attack II 6
Elven Dexterity I 2
Racial Toughness I 1

Storm Manipulation VII, Deadly Shocks I, Charged Spellcasting I 9
Frost Manipulation VII, Deadly Ice I, Glacial Spellcasting I 9
Acid Manipulation I, Deadly Acid I, Corrosive Spellcasting I 3
Force Manipulation I, Kinetic Spellcasting I 2

Elven Arcane Archer I 4
Arcane Archer (Conjure +2 Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Conjure +3 Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Conjure +4 Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Conjure +5 Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Imbue Acid Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Imbue Explosive Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Imbue Force Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Imbue Slaying Arrows) 1
Arcane Archer (Imbue Terror Arrows) 1

An arcane unloading theoretically can pretty much out DPS anything but a better arcane. However, a wiz can only do that for about a minute.

Just as a comment. I cant remember the time I saw a wizard unload on anything. Most wizards (and many sorcs for that matter) seem to have a hard time just keeping their DOTs up to date, plus for some reason most fail to take both of the high DPS DOTs. Next time you run a shroud count the wizards and inspect the damage on Harry. You should see two times the number of wizards in DOTs stacked three times. You will be lucky to see a quarter of this many.

[Chai]

An arcane unloading theoretically can pretty much out DPS anything but a better arcane. However, a wiz can only do that for about a minute.

Just as a comment. I cant remember the time I saw a wizard unload on anything. Most wizards (and many sorcs for that matter) seem to have a hard time just keeping their DOTs up to date, plus for some reason most fail to take both of the high DPS DOTs. Next time you run a shroud count the wizards and inspect the damage on Harry. You should see two times the number of wizards in DOTs stacked three times. You will be lucky to see a quarter of this many.

Thats just saying "wizards dont commonly put max DPS on **target**"

The ones that are played correctly do however. How many of those poorly played wizards would be using their manyshot every 2 minutes on your build like they are supposed to?

Ive always been a fan of wizards that also fight in a more mundane fashion (arcane archer, spellsword, bladesinger etc) but this game destroys any reason to build them through unlimited consumables + clicy effects + min maxing to get the strongest DC - which is a huge disappointment. Then toss on top of that the fact that archery is poor DPS and that building the most effective archer (which still sucks) requires 6 levels of monk (LOL really!!!) and we can see why people hem and haw about straying away from pure arcane, especially to fit archery in.

You would also have to click a divine power clicky right before manyshot. If not, you got 10 BAB which = 2 arrows per shot. The most convenient way to do this is to have the same slot be the swap put slot and collect a bunch of DP clickies for that slot.

[tinyelvis]

Why not splash arty instead? You can still range dps, need only 2 feat (PBS, IC:Ranged) and use de-buff repeater xbows (which is basically a permanent 11-15 BAB Manyshot). You get a runearm for extra damage (Lucid Dreams has Sup Potency VI and Toven Torc like effect), trap skills and if you're willing to stick to DoTs for your main casting DPS you can splash more then the minimum of 2 lvls and go for 6 lvls: for Endless, Ele Weapons and Insightful Damage.

For archery to be halfway viable it has to be the main priority of the build, you don't build a toon that can do something and add archery on top of it, you make an archer and build the toon around it.

P.S. Darn it, now I feel like trying out a wiz 12, arty 8 build...

That's typically the first consideration. However, I have a heavy arcane background. I came at this from a casters perspective. Losing the 2 wizard levels will really impact the casting performance. You lose quite a bit, but the biggest are DC and Spell Penetration. This build skates on the edge of performing as is (you might not lose the SP with arty splash). In 12/8, you heavily impact your DOT output. Eight points of base damage each. That cuts your damage considerably losing over 2/3rds of your damage potential. I dont think you can make this up with ranged DPS.

In my mind a wizard does not need any trash killing support. They could use some help in sustained DPS.

[tinyelvis]

Some thoughts...

Doesn't 10 BAB mean only 2 arrows for manyshot?

Even with DP clickies I see you missing a lot...

Enhancements are already fairly tight for palemasters already.

It's a cool concept but ranged+arcane doesn't really mesh all that well.

Sometimes it looks like you have the best of both worlds with a build...but you really have a character that can't do anything well.

But, I'd love to be proven wrong.

Well, any ranged splash needs to deal with lower than 16 BAB. It comes with the territory. On my divine arcane, I always cast a divine favor first. On this build, it would be a clickie (takes essentially the same amount of time). As for hitting things on epic. That is all nonsense. I have gone into quests and pulled bonuses off to simulate the to hit this guy has. Though misses occur quite frequently, they are nothing unexpected. And certainly no where near 9 in 10 (that is just rediculous nonsense.) I suspect anyone who has had trouble hitting has poor equipment or play style.

But the real problem with this build is what MrCow pointed out. Consider a wizard (a good wizard, not a typical player). Against a challenging boss he will not only stack two DOTs, but he will also chain spells (usual SLA's but sometimes mixing in a real spell). Essentially, he will cast something every second. In the case of this build, that means (even with auto attack on) that the ranged combat will be interrupted everytime a cast occurs.

So, the real question is. If you keep the DOTs and replace the chained spells, how will this effect your damage output? It is time to number crunch.

[DeafeningWhisper]

That's typically the first consideration. However, I have a heavy arcane background. I came at this from a casters perspective. Losing the 2 wizard levels will really impact the casting performance. You lose quite a bit, but the biggest are DC and Spell Penetration. This build skates on the edge of performing as is (you might not lose the SP with arty splash). In 12/8, you heavily impact your DOT output. Eight points of base damage each. That cuts your damage considerably losing over 2/3rds of your damage potential. I dont think you can make this up with ranged DPS.

In my mind a wizard does not need any trash killing support. They could use some help in sustained DPS.

I understand, I have a cleric 18 arty 2 (Zen Archery) that can do well in healing, dps and traps (Search Trap spell is very handy) but that's because caster lvl for healing caps pretty quick and Heal almost always over heals.

I like your build, I just can't see it been better or equal to a pure PM in dps.

[Brennie]

Forgive me for asking a dumb question, but couldn't you effectively get the same result you are looking for from having 2 different throwing daggers: (improved) roaring of whatever (puncturing maybe?), and (improved) cursespewing of (improved) shattermantle? All of these effects are craftable with only mid-40s crafting as well. You could drop all points in dex, pump strength, grab brutal throw and voila - Virtually the same debuffing you're looking for with no AP cost, less stat dependency and 1 optional feat investment (plus quickdraw and rapid shot as desired. Quickdraw would also help swap between the daggers, or swap from dagger to casting stick)

[tinyelvis]

Forgive me for asking a dumb question, but couldn't you effectively get the same result you are looking for from having 2 different throwing daggers: (improved) roaring of whatever (puncturing maybe?), and (improved) cursespewing of (improved) shattermantle? All of these effects are craftable with only mid-40s crafting as well. You could drop all points in dex, pump strength, grab brutal throw and voila - Virtually the same debuffing you're looking for with no AP cost, less stat dependency and 1 optional feat investment (plus quickdraw and rapid shot as desired. Quickdraw would also help swap between the daggers, or swap from dagger to casting stick)

I dont think this is a bad idea. In fact, its a pretty good idea. You lose AA though and slayer arrows, not to mention manyshot. Plus AA provides an infinite number of arrows so no pack problems. You could build the same bows and get terror added too. However, the dagger approach is a lot less enhancement intensive. A little heavy on the crafting side. You also drop a couple of to-hits. However, a halfling would not, but he would be forced to use extra feats for spell pen.

I think if all you are after is de-buffing then the daggar approach is a better option. You could also push it a little and add precise and improved precise shot. Should I or you work up this build?

[tinyelvis]

I understand, I have a cleric 18 arty 2 (Zen Archery) that can do well in healing, dps and traps (Search Trap spell is very handy) but that's because caster lvl for healing caps pretty quick and Heal almost always over heals.

I like your build, I just can't see it been better or equal to a pure PM in dps.

I can imagine places where it would be better. Solo play on elite or epic servants of the overlord, for example. Every two minutes you get 20 seconds of good ranged DPS to mix in with your casting. Plus self de-buff capability. Also, solo epic 23+ challenge runs. I dont think any pure wiz could perform as well.