So I just learned what Epic Drow SR is.....

[Postumus]

we have more levels coming (more Spell Penn), and a revamp of the enhancment system. who knows what else we'll see that may aid our spell penn efforts.

or you could always bring a few melees with ya into epic quests....

I agree. It would be odd if the expansion doesn't include new spells, abilities, ehancements, gear to help boost DCs.

[Barazon]

SR=45

Are you freaking kidding me?

Just wait 'til the EPIC epic drow, in the MOTU expansion, when they have an SR of 55, 65, or 75!

[ImFour20]

I disagree with the OP of this thread as I did with the OP of the last thread. You have to use DIFFERENT SPELLS. What spells do you use in house D epics? Same ones youll use in the new epics.

I have three viewpoints on this.

1. It is the one trick ponies who get huge DCs in one school of magic who use the same 2 or 3 spells who will have the hardest time. Those people who concentrated on getting DCs in other schools which have spells that do not check SR will find they can adapt well enough.

2. Congrats. When you play your caster you now have the wonderful opportunity to feel like a melee feels when playing with you in 95% of the other epic content to date. Its about **** time they put something in the game that evens the odds. Melee will actually be valuable now.

3. Theres alot more in the underdark than just drow. Most of it doesnt have an SR of over 9000.

**Your neg rep for this post is hilarious. It shows exactly why the system doesnt work. Might as well be a like/dislike button ~facebook instead.

This is very true.

And why is it so important that you can bypass the SR anyway? While you could get lucky if you focus on it(with a high roll). . .maybe they are designed into the game to be unable to be CC'd(in that way).

Yes you can make a personal goal for yourself to make it easier, but that could be as far as it goes. Just because you can target them, doesn't mean you have to be able to CC them

[TheDjinnFor]

As far as I can tell, we are headed toward being forced to chug SP pots purchased from the DDO store, on multi-TRd toons that have chugged XP pots from the DDO store, using stat buff pots purchased through the DDO store.

Stop trying to auto-win the game with one or two character classes and actually group with other people? Web still autowins epics if you have people who can deal sustained DPS.

[KingofDiamondz]

I think we have enough examples of why drow SR is overated. You guys named plenty of counter tactics which I know work from either watching somebody else or doing it myself.

Acid Rains, Firewalls, Webs, Clouds to debuff reflex, debuffs in general, evocation shouts, electric loops, good melees with stun, even better melees with stun and weapon procs. Have you not been using Solid Fog with your webs?

Not to mention that if you really want to be that awesome and break drow SR, then do the past lives and grind it out. Im currently on life 6 with 3 wiz and going on 3 fvs. Gonna go back to wiz and go elf and try a max spell pen build just to try it out for fun, and hope its viable in the expansion. I just hope they dont blanket immune every **** thing because then I will be re rolling for sure.

On elf build you can hit 42-45ish with right gear. Even with the expansion coming Im worried about CR levels as well. We really have to wait before you can go crazy over this topic, we got a lot of changes coming and who knows how much builds will change.

[die]

Too beat SR

D20+caster lv+ Spell pen item+Spell Pen Feat+Spell Pen enahncment's +Wizard past life feat

45 does not seem so over board.

[Varashad]

Too beat SR

D20+caster lv+ Spell pen item+Spell Pen Feat+Spell Pen enahncment's +Wizard past life feat

45 does not seem so over board.

Caster level = 20 +3 +4 +2 = 29 if my math is right, which means you need 16+ to beat their SR, and this assumes a maxed out, max geared wizard.

[rodallec]

Luckily there is more than one way to overcome this challenge!

Alot of posts have good alternatives to instakills.

Drow have dismal for saves, so melee with stunning capability work great
Imp sunder and quivering palm combos on decent wisdom monks are lethal

Web has no sr check, it is awesome against drow even with a dc around 30.
I have seen mobs pass straight through webs without fom and I'll leave that as a mystery of the universe

Find something besides instakills to beat the big scary drow, sr45 is good.

[oradafu]

Caster level = 20 +3 +4 +2 = 29 if my math is right, which means you need 16+ to beat their SR, and this assumes a maxed out, max geared wizard.

Well, if my math is correct, a first life wizard can achieve 30 Spell Pen.

Caster level 20 + max Spell Pen item 3 + Spell Pen/Greater Spell Pen feat 4 + Spell Pen Enhancement 3 = 30 Spell Pen

If it were a Elf Wizard, add another 4 to Spell Pen making it 34.

Then one can add in the TR feats from FvS and Wiz, which can add between 1 and 9, depending on the number of times and which of the two classes one TRs.

...So 45 SR isn't too crazy. As others have pointed out, there are ways to drop the SR by using other spells or melee weapons.

If you can't hit it with the same old thing, try something else. There are melees that need to turn off PA to hit some Epic mobs, so this isn't much different in my mind.

[Thrudh]

I should have explained myself better. What I found laughable was all these people saying there are so many other ways to deal with the situation, but virtually nobody saying what they were. Except Heightened web, which is trading 1 one trick pony for another. At least now I am seeing some feedback.

And I still hold to my belief that it's BS if people are not expected to TR to stay effective with the new epic content. Look at the bonuses coming out lately. I'd like to see a 1st life Wiz go into epics and be able to stay effective without having to feat swap between quests. Some need Conj to be maxed, some need Enchant, all pretty much need Necro. Impossible to do even with the plethora of feat slots Wizzies get. Sure, it may be doable, but it will be a mana pot chug fest.

Thank you for the clarification. Sorry for my negative responses.

A first-life wizard can be very effective in a group. He may not be able to solo at will, but that's very different from being effective.

My wizard has only one TR... (wizard past-life of course, very powerful). He is effective in all epic content, even the ones with drow. He does not SOLO them, but as part of a group he can FoD and Wail some things, dance others, and web even more.

I do debuff often... Throw an un-metaed hypno before a mass hold or dancing ball, very cheap, automatic -3 to will save. Mind Fog, Crushing Despair, Solid Fog, all are useful. Cloudkill does CON damage, which lowers fort saves.

A wizard is a not a sorc, but we CAN use direct damage spells. Acid Rain, Firewall, Ice Storm, DoTs all hurt and kill low hp drow.

There are many options.

[KingofDiamondz]

Took this info from this thread http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=289779

Spell Pen
--------------------
20 Caster lvl
2 Spell Pen feat
2 Greater Spell Pen feat
6 x3 free Wiz past life feat
3 x3 free FvS past life feat
3 Enhancements
4 Elven Arcanum
-----------------------
40
3 Greater Spell Pen IX item (alchemical crafting)
2 Arcane Augmentation IX (alchemical crafting)
--------------------
45
1 Song of Heightening (Spellsinger bard)
-------------------
46 max Spell Pen

So with d20 roll most you could hit would be 66.

[zwiebelring]

SR=45

Are you freaking kidding me?

I saw a thread a while back from someone asking if people are now expected to TR their characters multiple times to have any relevance at end game (once the expansion hits). I saw a lot of people offer sage advice such as not being a one trick pony, learn how to play your class, find alternatives to FoD/Wail/Dancing Ball like a heightened Web....

I find this all laughable.

I spent plenty of time on my 4th life (3 of them wiz) Wizard in the new preview quests seeing nothing but blue shields on drow archers and drow casters waltzing right through my webs.

This toon is *almost* fully geared out, with everything I would need *and more* as a 1st life caster. My Spell Pen is 32. Necro/Enchant DCs at 42.

SR of 45????? The only way a guildy and myself have determined to come close to not burning through the blue bars is to do a 3x Fvs, 3x Wiz ending on an Elf Wiz.

So people aren't expected to have to multi TR their toons to be relevant? I call BS!

This got me wondering- what do the various creatures have for SR through the game, and at Epic. Anybody have a link? What DCs are necessary for different mobs in Epic? Where are we headed?

As far as I can tell, we are headed toward being forced to chug SP pots purchased from the DDO store, on multi-TRd toons that have chugged XP pots from the DDO store, using stat buff pots purchased through the DDO store.

Seeing a trend here?

The 3.5 MM states a monster created by yourself is balanced (or better, a challenging encounter) when its SR - in case it does exist - allows a 50% chance for the SC to overcome it. A Drow is actually a good bar for that comparism. Level 10 Drows have SR 20 and an usual SC Wiz has an average spell penetration check modifier of +10. 50/50.

The whole game is based on longterm TR plans. The developpers clearly keep that in mind for endgame. Take the maximum possible spell pen. modifier you get and see if there is a 50/50 chance. Then keep in mind the epic destinies and the progress to level 25. I pretty much expect all the SR of Drow become balanced from overwhelming to challenging after the expansion hits.

[hockeyrama]

symbol of death, mind fog, other debuff spells there are many ways to reduce saves and levels. You can energy drain as well. The point I was saying before is. When devs make it harder we just need to find the new way to deal with the quests. It all cool and makes it more fun to do.

[Desdemonte]

symbol of death, mind fog, other debuff spells there are many ways to reduce saves and levels. You can energy drain as well. The point I was saying before is. When devs make it harder we just need to find the new way to deal with the quests. It all cool and makes it more fun to do.

I'll give you mind fog, but for Symbol of Death and Energy Drain.... Try again.

We've seen some good ones mentioned- TY. And Thrudh- TY as well. Those are some good ideas.

I'm curious, in order of importance (not including solid fog which is obviously critical) would these spells be put into a Sorc's Spellbook? Would any debuff have a chance of landing from a scroll (I know it's unlikely, but I figured I'd ask, as I can't slot all this stuff in)?

[Chai]

I'll give you mind fog, but for Symbol of Death and Energy Drain.... Try again.

We've seen some good ones mentioned- TY. And Chai- TY as well. Those are some good ideas.

I'm curious, in order of importance (not including solid fog which is obviously critical) would these spells be put into a Sorc's Spellbook? Would any debuff have a chance of landing from a scroll (I know it's unlikely, but I figured I'd ask, as I can't slot all this stuff in)?

Hypno and Crushing despair both debuff the target -3 and -5 will save respectively even if they dont land. I know that doesnt do anything for SR. Improved Shattermantle weapons reduce the SR by 6 - which is the same amount of spell pen you get for 3 FvS + 3 Wiz past lives.

A barb with imp shattermantle and supreme cleave might just be your best friend.

[taurean430]

I didn't see this mentioned so I will add that Necrotic Ray level drains as well and has no SR check. It should be noted though that one is much more likely to outright kill them with dps before draining enough levels to make a difference.

[Fefnir_2011]

For individual targets, quickened Necrotic Ray is nice and spammable. For groups.... I'm looking at what spells don't have SR checks, maybe there's something we've missed in terms of easy ways to CC drow? In particular, I'm looking at:

Evocation
Greater Shout (Fortitude save or stunned)
Sunburst (Reflex save or blinded)
Prismatic Spray (all sorts of fun effects)
Cyclonic Blast (Reflex save or knocked down)

Conjuration
Incendiary Cloud (Reflex save or blinded)
Sleet Storm (knockdown chance, but capped so pretty useless)
Glitterdust (Will save or blinded)

Transmutation
Flesh to Stone (Fortitude save or turned to stone)

If nothing else, this means we'll finally have to think out of the box, or at least outside the disco ball.

[Desdemonte]

I'm looking at these debuff options, and wondering where they work in epic (Hypno, etc).

Hypno and Crushing Despair both need to get through SR, so won't really be useful against epic drow or red/purple named. So where in epics are those debuffs used? If a mob can have its SR penetrated, you may as well finger it.

Mind Fog doesn't have a save, but that's only going to help you if you get through SR, so same situation as above. If you can get through, Dance them. Are these debuffs for mobs who have low SR and the caster has a low DC?

Cloudkill doesn't cause CON damage to red/purple named, and a lot of mobs in epic are red named, so I don't see it being any better than Solid Fog.

I understand the concept of Shattermantle, and I guess the only way to believe it works is to go into a party and try it out. I just don't see how it is applied. The Barb would have to be running around hitting everything praying his Shattermantle goes off and the healer is ignoring everyone else for him. If he stayed on 1 creature, it would be dead by the time it went off, or would be if he was using lit2.

I like the Evo options for CC. Most of them fit with my build and are on the revamped spell list already.

[Arlathen]

You can tell me to rely on my melee all you want, but the fact of the matter is that they *cannot* kill things fast enough.

Sorry, but this is garbage. And I'll tell you why.

I regularly do Epics with Melee based parties. Melee's have access to repeatable, reliable single target CC abilities just as casters do. DC51 Stunning Fist on my Monk/s works wonders, and then Mobs go down fast at +50% damage.

Party up with some decently equipped and built Melee's that Can Stunning Blow/Stunning Fist/Improved Sunder/Assassinate in Epics (with a DC of 45 or better - Monks and Assassins can get away with DC42 or better since they double hit with TWF on Assassinate and Stunning Fist). I'm personally spamming Improved Sunder so you PMs have an easier time of FoD/Wail too.

So instead of trying to solo-hero everything, work with your team and co-ordinate. I'm sure you can pretty much hero everything else if your Melee's deal with Drow.

If your inviting melee's into your Epic groups, then ask them if they can bring anything to team other than mindless DPS - the above named abilities really stand out in Epics. I see LFMs for 'CC must be DC40+', same goes for Melee's too.

As an aside, Epic Khopeshes of Water from the Challenges are also a viable alternative for TWF builds that don't have Stuns/Assassinate. The combined abilities of Improved Paralyzing and Freezing Ice work extremely well for CC purposes, with the later leaving a target helpless and thus susceptible to an additional +50% damage.

[Uppercutts]

I have to agree with the OP on this subject and I think my post was the one hes was referring too. I for one am definitely not going to go through multiple trs just to able to land a fod, disco ball, hold or wail. In my opinion it seems like it is really gimping the bread and butter of being a pm altogether. While there were some excellent suggestions here I just dont see a reason to go pm after the expansion. Self healing wf am web bot seems like where it is headed, if I wanted to nuke and web id roll a sorc. Relying on a bunch of melee to bring imp shattermantle is definitely not the answer either, it takes long enough as is to fill a group or raid with competent players, additional screening of melees is only going to make it worse.