So I just learned what Epic Drow SR is.....

[Desdemonte]

Matti- I didn't take max spell pen feats the last life I was on, hence Spell Pen of 32. I was trying to mimic what my final build as a sorc will have (33) to see how it would fair. Plus it was on 3rd life Wiz, so only 4 as PL bonus.

Syllph- I didn't actually say I was seeing blue shields on my webs- just that the casters were waltzing through them. I realize there is no spell pen check, but it leads me to a crucial point:

No, I did not put any feats into Conjuration. So that would have left my DC about what a 1st life caster would have (maybe a bit better). I did not catch a single drow *once* in a web. Their reflex save is just too high. And they must be stong little buggers too! So if I couldn't do it, how would a 1st lifer do it? Hence the need to TR (or max out Web DCs at the cost of others???? Ridiculousness, I say!!!)

I read through that other Thread made by Riggs. I found it quite ironic that almost all the advice was to stop being a 1 trick pony using Dancing Ball, FoD and Wail, but become another 1 trick pony and use web and Icestorm (or FW). Problem with this reasoning is that you won't catch drow in a web unless you heavily invest in it. So that means no Necro/Enchant for the other mobs.

Here was another suggestion: Necrotic Ray. 10 SP Neg level effect. OK, so let's say I'm in Servants of the Overlord and just coming up to the first big mob of drow after the 1 set of spiders downstairs. That priestess has to be taken out ASAP or it DW's everything. No time for Necrotic Ray (or the 5 that would be needed to hit her with in order to have her fail a Spell Pen check). Yes, a better strategy is to nuke the **** out of the area, but this ain't so easy to do if you can't even get a web to land. So what's the advice? Make my web better? See previous resonses to this suggestion.... The places where you need fast CC is where there are tonnes of mobs. There is no way you'd get enough Necrotic Rays off to make any difference in time.

Something I read that I liked: Greater shout. Never really used this spell. Going to definitely try it out... Or have one of my wiz buds try it out.

Mostly, I have read people saying "use a different spell, etc etc" but they don't say anything about what that spell might be (other than web).... Yeah, I'm pretty certain a drow priestess to a spider god is going to eventually realize that she can cast FoM..... LOL

[Desdemonte]

You are crying about something that already has been solved before for most people when dealing with high drow sr.

1. take a bard with fascinate
2. take someone that can stun like a maniac.

no sr problems or crowd control issues if everyone can work together.

No you wont be able to go through the quest solo killing everything as you skip along. You will just have to spend some time with the unkept masses that bitterly cling to there weapons and armor.

Yeah, because Bards are so easy to find..... Or a massive stunner.

I guess I'm seeing the writing on the wall. I don't have the patience to wait for the "perfect" party to fill though.

[sirgog]

I disagree with the OP of this thread as I did with the OP of the last thread. You have to use DIFFERENT SPELLS. What spells do you use in house D epics? Same ones youll use in the new epics.

I have three viewpoints on this.

1. It is the one trick ponies who get huge DCs in one school of magic who use the same 2 or 3 spells who will have the hardest time. Those people who concentrated on getting DCs in other schools which have spells that do not check SR will find they can adapt well enough.

2. Congrats. When you play your caster you now have the wonderful opportunity to feel like a melee feels when playing with you in 95% of the other epic content to date. Its about **** time they put something in the game that evens the odds. Melee will actually be valuable now.

3. Theres alot more in the underdark than just drow. Most of it doesnt have an SR of over 9000.

This.

My Web is just OK in there (the Drow Warriors save a lot, the Priestesses and casters do not). It's still worth casting, but Conjuration Archmages are much better at it.

What is good is using AoE damage spells. Acid Rain, etc. Those Drow have at most 3500hp (I think most non-Warriors are under 3000) - very easily burned through indeed.

Find 3-4 of them in a tight pack and throw a Max-Empped Acid Rain. After the spell expires cast another. Bingo, all dead.

[LOOON375]

Where epic drow are concerned: When in doubt, throw a web out!!

As long as you can effectively CC the OTHER non drow mobs, there are no issues. If your melee's and your damage are decent, you can cut through the remaining drow fairly easy.

What your holds and disco don't get, a web will usually get the rest.

I have not ran an epic yet where the Drow have over powered the group.

Web works pretty decent on my gimped 2nd life Wizzard (1st life Bard).

[Rodasch]

But but but...

Melees are so 1980s ;P

Seriously though, I am all open ears to suggestions that *work*. The glitterdust and incendiary cloud is an interesting combo. I am really curious as to what people are using on their 1st life caster to dominate sufficently that a wipe doesn't occur. You can tell me to rely on my melee all you want, but the fact of the matter is that they *cannot* kill things fast enough, and need a good dent made by instakills, and taking other mobs out of commision by dancing/webbing them.

This is why GOOD melees carry Improved Paralyzers, or use Tactics to help you CC the high SR monsters, and carry instakilling weapons to help thin the trash, instead of just only using their highest dps weapons and autoattacking with the W key depressed. Maybe you should play with a better class of melee, and stop hanging out with the gimp ones who rely solely on casters to keep them alive, control the battlefield and enable their bad play.

[Doxmaster]

My friends use web.
I use shattermantle.
We're good friends.

/thread.

[voodoogroves]

This.

My Web is just OK in there (the Drow Warriors save a lot, the Priestesses and casters do not). It's still worth casting, but Conjuration Archmages are much better at it.

What is good is using AoE damage spells. Acid Rain, etc. Those Drow have at most 3500hp (I think most non-Warriors are under 3000) - very easily burned through indeed.

Find 3-4 of them in a tight pack and throw a Max-Empped Acid Rain. After the spell expires cast another. Bingo, all dead.

Again, this is the kind of balance we need. A reason to not be necro spec'd on a wizard? Blasphemy!

Personally, I'm enjoying running my new ranger-monk thing in epics because a DC 48 stunning fist does wonders on a high SR drow. I love that assassinate works when finger can't easily get through SR.

[sweez]

Godh forbid you actually do something other than wail/mass hold on a wiz! Web works just fine in any drow content, what else works great? Intim. Getting enough intim to grab epic trash is trivial on a wizzy, just intim the mobs, turtle up, get free SP back, and let melees have some fun for once.

Or, maybe you could try using prismatic spray scrolls? Non-meta'd prismatic ray/spray spells? *shudder* damage spells?!

This game offers much more in the way of CC than just throwing DC 9000 webs and discoballs around and thinking you're the bee's knees. Be creative.

[Havok.cry]

Im going to add to my comments that my first life wizard started necro/enchant, but left enchant behind quickly. I found that while it had better CC, too many things were immune. Conjuration has less defenses against it so I replaced enchant with it. I will likely never go back, and I recommend the same to every wizard who asks. Conjuration is actually that much better imho.

My sorc, knowing I would not have the DCs for reliable instakill, decided to not bother with spell pen at all. It has gsf in both evocation and conjuration. I can testify to greater shouts effectiveness.

Edit: the spells I use for CC on my sorc are:
Sunburst, greater shout, prismatic spray, electric loop, web, glitterdust, incindiary cloud.

[Bowser_Koopa]

What is with the rash of threads recently that say "waaaaaah I can't solo this quest with my caster so X must be broken"

What is it you're looking for do we want all mobs to just be one type with no immunities or strengths or weaknesses. Did you ever stop to wonder gee Bowser why are drow such a threat to the world, well they have great SR and they use tactics and seem to have a great balance of being casters, divines and melee's. So here are baddies that aren't devils again (yes some of you remember the insane updates in a row with devils) just roll with it change your strategy and nuke some things, use a heightened web or any other options that have been offered in here.

But do NOT come here expecting some dev to go, I'm sorry you feel like this mob is strong against you we'll go ahead and nerf it we wouldn't want you to feel challenged in any way. Adapt and use what is available to you as a class that can change out every single spell at a shrine or prior to the quest sure you might not have a dc 43 web or your nuke's might not hit as hard as that acid specced sorc but they will do damage and unless I'm mistaken the leading cause of death in DDO is still -10hps.

Bowser,
Mobs have goals and desires too they want to win and they like us should have that chance

[Syllph]

Syllph- I didn't actually say I was seeing blue shields on my webs- just that the casters were waltzing through them. I realize there is no spell pen check, but it leads me to a crucial point:

No, I did not put any feats into Conjuration. So that would have left my DC about what a 1st life caster would have (maybe a bit better). I did not catch a single drow *once* in a web. Their reflex save is just too high. And they must be stong little buggers too! So if I couldn't do it, how would a 1st lifer do it? Hence the need to TR (or max out Web DCs at the cost of others???? Ridiculousness, I say!!!)

i believe that you're still thinking one dimensionally.

Debuff them before you try your web if you can't land it. Solid fog is another spell with no SR check and it effective gives +5 to your Web DCs. Even a first lifer can effectively land web with a solid fog.

Ask your melee buddies to carry some (weakening) enfeebling weapons.

You just need to think about it. You have 45 spells. Use them.

[Desdemonte]

Voodoo- you mentioned assassinate. I'm curious if you are finding equal efficacy against underdark drow as you do with Eberron drow. I can assassinate the drow casters and archers in etides with no problems at all, but I just can't seem to drop them in Servants. Is their DC higher or am I just getting bad rolls?

I hear all these people saying "stop moaning you can't do everything with your character, so what if you can't solo everything". Well, keep in mind that some people spend months building a character through *many* TRs to be able to do things that regular toons cannot. I'm not saying I want to be able to do *everything* or solo all content. I'm saying that with the amount of work being put into a certain build should be able to work very well in most situations. When it looks like all that time has been wasted, it is quite annoying. It is even more annoying when people say "hey you just wasted all that time, suck it up crybaby".

Everybody is still waving the web banner. I'm saying web is not reliable for me with these new drow, and I suspect it would not be for a 1st lifer unless they changed all their feats around. I am wondering if DCs may have been bumped as well? People don't seem to want to read, but rather just tout their awesomeness and be derisive.

Havock- thanks for the input. It's some of the only real useful stuff here.

Sweez- although you're being an absolute smartass, at least you offer some other useful suggestions.

[Desdemonte]

Debuff them before you try your web if you can't land it. Solid fog is another spell with no SR check and it effective gives +5 to your Web DCs. Even a first lifer can effectively land web with a solid fog.
Ask your melee buddies to carry some (weakening) enfeebling weapons.

You just need to think about it. You have 45 spells. Use them.

Good advice on the solid fog. I never carried it because I had cloudkill.

You're correct though, I *have* been thinking 1-dimensionally. I am of the mind to take out the danger ASAP (enemy casters/clerics) rather than leave them to make a save, sneak away and create havok for the party. This is why I am not staying a Wiz and going back to Sorc. I am more the Barbarian type of caster.

[hockeyrama]

nothing agains you personally but I am getting tired of everyone complaining anytime ddo tries to make the game a bit challenging in any way.

First. There are spells that do not have sr checks.
Second. Max your spell pen check through tr and gear and then get a melee to use shattermantle and you have a good chance of landing.
Thrid. Deal with it. There are more ways to win then just doing things the same way all the time. I am getting tired of every epic being lets follow the pm wizard so he can wail and kill or dance the ones that are immune. What about strategies. Figure some out. I mean there are soo many ways. Displace and heal melee. Kite through blade barrier works realy good with an artificier who can get them hitting for up to 1500 or so with crits or a fvs who can wing if he gets in trouble. Or be creative and adjust for the quest. I mean you have a whole party not just one person doing the same thing. Use your brains and figure out what will work the best.
fourth. find a caster who can deal the damage to kill the stuff fast enough for you.

[Desdemonte]

Second. Max your spell pen check through tr

You're missing a large point here- why should people be expected to TR 6 or more times?

Regardless, although I was lambasted here, I really don't care. I learned some good info from a couple posts, and I call that a success. It's going to hurt taking Greater Shout when I'm back to Sorc instead of Symbol of Death but it looks that's the way it'll have to be. Prismatic Spray was already slotted into my spell list. Was hoping to keep PK and Firewall instead of having to fit Solid Fog in, but there's no way I'm giving up Ddoor. PK or FW will have to go. Glitterdust is an easy replacement for Scorching ray. Can't see how to fit in Sunburst or Incendiary cloud though.

I find it Ironic that Level 2 spells are the go-to for level 25 quests.

[LOOON375]

I find it Ironic that Level 2 spells are the go-to for level 25 quests.

I think the theme overall is to not get yourself pushed into being a "one trick pony". It's easy to do in DDO.

I am no expert on playing casters by any means as I am still learning what to use when, and what works where, and against what.

I have actually learned a lot from this thread and will reference in the near future.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

If every monster on epics had that SR, it would be a problem.

But "epic" should include some monsters with very high SR.

adapt... overcome.


I expect that when we get epic lvls of our own, that a 45 SR will not be that much of a problem.

[Thrudh]

Use different spells. Nuke them, web them.

Group with melees who have no problem stunning, tripping, and killing low hp drow.

Get a grip. You're not supposed to be awesome against everything. If you maxed out necro and ignored everything else, then you are not going to be good against drow.

I applaud the devs. Great way to bring some balance to end-game.

[voodoogroves]

Voodoo- you mentioned assassinate. I'm curious if you are finding equal efficacy against underdark drow as you do with Eberron drow. I can assassinate the drow casters and archers in etides with no problems at all, but I just can't seem to drop them in Servants. Is their DC higher or am I just getting bad rolls?

Maybe bad rolls? What DC are you running on w/ your assassin? I'm generally 42-44 DC on assassinate on my first-life rogue (INT builds could be higher out of the gate - 46+)

I also stun them like mad on my Monk-Ranger, but I'm sitting at either 44 or 48 on the stunning fist DC.

You're missing a large point here- why should people be expected to TR 6 or more times?

To drive a nail with a hammer, it takes one life.

To drive a screw with a hammer may require lots of gear and past lives. My Rogue's DPS blows against undead; gear and some monk past lives will make that better ... but it doesn't change the fact that I'm trying to solve a different problem (undead) with the same solution.

I find it Ironic that Level 2 spells are the go-to for level 25 quests.

That's the reason for heighten, period. It changes all aspects of the spell to be as if it were a spell of the level to which it was heightened.

Frankly, heighten doesn't work as well as it does in PNP ... a heightened fireball would pierce a mantle or globe of invulnerability (and you can heighten any spell). We do get a pass though, where DDO uses the original spell level for applying item benefits.

[Thrudh]

What is with the rash of threads recently that say "waaaaaah I can't solo this quest with my caster so X must be broken"

This. I'm glad the devs are doing something to slow down casters before every caster player gets this stupid attitude.

But do NOT come here expecting some dev to go, I'm sorry you feel like this mob is strong against you we'll go ahead and nerf it we wouldn't want you to feel challenged in any way. Adapt and use what is available to you as a class that can change out every single spell at a shrine or prior to the quest

+1