Remove Guild Renown Decay

[Tshober]

Or at least find some better alternative way to implement the decay.

The current method or farming for guild renown and then having it decay is poorly implemented and actually alienates many potential DDO players.

I do not understand why a MMO like DDO, that is competing with other MMO's for every available player, would deliberately choose to implement a guild level decay system that, in effect, makes all casual and semi-casual players totally unwelcome in DDO's guilds. It is very alienating to be refused admittance into every well established guild because you only play on weekends or because your play schedule is intermittent. But that is exactly the situation casual players are in with DDO today. Guilds flat out don't want them and will not take them. And it is hard to blame the guild leaders, when the ultimate fault lies in the guild level decay system chosen by DDO. The guild leaders want their guild to continue to level up and the only way that can happen is if they make sure all their active accounts are really, really active - as in logged in every single day getting renown. This makes casual and light gamers feel unwelcome in DDO because they are *literally* unwlecome in every well established guild in DDO. This is a very self-defeating policy that really should be reviewed.

Not only is the renown decay policy self-defeating for DDO as a whole, it is also poorly implemented and poorly thought out. Most of the content of DDO is quests and in quests there are several opportunities to get renown. You get very small amounts of renown (5 to 15 renown) randomly from monster kills and you get much larger renown rewards (50 to 1000 renown) from looting chests and from end-rewards. That was okay when all there was in DDO was quests. But much of the newer DDO content is no longer built on quests. Events like Crystal Cove and, most recently, the Challenges system do not offer anywhere near the opportunity to earn renown that quests offer. There are no chests in this content and no end-reward option where it woud ever make sense to choose a renown reward (if one were even offered). So when you play the newer DDO content (events & challenges) the ONLY renown you generate is the random (5-15) on kills. You never get any opportunity to get the much larger renown rewards that are actually useful. So, if you insist on retaining the horribly self-defeating renown decay system we have now, at the very least stop producing renown-free DDO content so there is at least some chance at getting some decent renown when you play.

I run a large and pretty well established guild on Orien. We have been around for a little over a year. I try very hard not to give in to the pressure to kick out people who don't play almost daily but is is very hard because those who do play daily want to level the guild. Please review the guild renown decay policy, because I really do not feel that it is serving the best interests of DDO the way it works today.


Tshober

[Captain_Wizbang]

/signed.

The entire system needs to be over-hauled.

[madmaxhunter]

As with the 100 other threads (maybe the devs will eventually get what we're screaming).

/signed

It really has to be FIXED before the expansion hits.

[MartinusWyllt]

At the very least something like a 3-day hold on decay after reaching a new level would be nice....along with thresholds that you don't decay below...even if this was just:

at level 75 level 50 is your new minimum GL.

at level 100 level 75 is your new minimum GL.

This could reflect the idea that some groups become so legendary they won't fade from memory for decades if not longer.

[Qzipoun]

/sigh'ned ... again

[dodger72]

/sigh'ned ... again

^this

[jortann]

Maybe we should ask MadFloyd when we get a ... 'LET'S TALK: Guild Renown' thread.


Because the system needs an overhaul.

[amethystdragon]

The OP is very well thought out and written, there is not much anyone can add to it; other than we agree.

I understand that when renown was introduced, that decay was put in to stop very large guilds from just reaching the top and not having to work to stay there. It was also ment to stop someone from getting a guild to a high level and then just booting everyone. However, I think that it is time to review and update the system.

[porq]

I don't know why this topic continually comes up.

I doubt the 'essential' goodies being delivered around the watermark most guilds reach just by playing the game is an accident. It's probably by design. A lot of guilds seem to plateau or grow very slowly beyond that point, but the important thing is the access to the important buffs.

Going the extra mile is getting the last ~35 levels for the convenience of having crafting altars you don't have to visit the Shroud or the Twelve for, and a +1-2% bump on the xp shrine.

Please review the guild renown decay policy, because I really do not feel that it is serving the best interests of DDO the way it works today.

I think it does. What's the end game on leveling a guild anyways, ship buffs? That's what most people are after, and reaching the mid-60s delivers on that.

[Tshober]

I don't know why this topic continually comes up.

I doubt the 'essential' goodies being delivered around the watermark most guilds reach just by playing the game is an accident. It's probably by design. A lot of guilds seem to plateau or grow very slowly beyond that point, but the important thing is the access to the important buffs.

Going the extra mile is getting the last ~35 levels for the convenience of having crafting altars you don't have to visit the Shroud or the Twelve for, and a +1-2% bump on the xp shrine.



I think it does. What's the end game on leveling a guild anyways, ship buffs? That's what most people are after, and reaching the mid-60s delivers on that.

The problem is that in the current environment, casual players are totally unwelcome in EVERY well established guild. Has nothing to do with what's available on the ships. Has everything to do with alienating a whole set of players from DDO entirely.

[McFlay]

The problem is that in the current environment, casual players are totally unwelcome in EVERY well established guild. Has nothing to do with what's available on the ships. Has everything to do with alienating a whole set of players from DDO entirely.

It has everythign to do with wanting a ship full of buffs and perks of being in an established guild.

If it had nothing to do with that, then all the casual players would just create/join casual guilds and guild level wouldn't matter to them.

[Tshober]

It has everythign to do with wanting a ship full of buffs and perks of being in an established guild.

If it had nothing to do with that, then all the casual players would just create/join casual guilds and guild level wouldn't matter to them.

Alright, that's true. I should not have said "nothing". But, as others have pointed out, the additional perks above level 62 are pretty weak. It's just that human nature makes people want to keep leveling up their guild, regardless of how minor the additional perks may be. Very few, if any, casual guilds will ever see level 62 though, with the current decay setup.

Despite your correction, I still beleive the renown decay is the root cause for caual players being unwelcome in well established DDO guilds, and that in turn makes them at least feel unwelcome in DDO generally. To them it appears that DDO is only suitable for power gamers or lifers that are always online.

[McFlay]

Alright, that's true. I should not have said "nothing". But, as others have pointed out, the additional perks above level 62 are pretty weak. It's just that human nature makes people want to keep leveling up their guild, regardless of how minor the additional perks may be. Very few, if any, casual guilds will ever see level 62 though, with the current decay setup.

Despite your correction, I still beleive the renown decay is the root cause for caual players being unwelcome in well established DDO guilds, and that in turn makes them at least feel unwelcome in DDO generally. To them it appears that DDO is only suitable for power gamers or lifers that are always online.

Did you ever stop and think for a second what a new, casual player has to offer to an established guild of active players? With decay, they are just a little thorn in the side of the guild with nothing to offer. Without it, they aren't a little thorn in the side of the guild anymore, but they still have literally nothing to offer that guild. There are plenty of good players willing to help noobs, but I don't see where a noob is at all entitled entrance into a high level established guild right from the begining.

I see guilds recruiting every day I log on...why not join a new guild with other new players rather then expecting to jump into a established guild of veterans and have them spoon feed you everything.

Face it, some guilds are always going to have requirements. Some expect a certain level of game knowledge, some expect a certain level of activity, and some expect you just to be a fun player. With or without decay...guilds are still goign to have requirements and expectations of their players. Maybe people should be more concerned about finding a guild with people they enjoy playing with who have a similiar mindset about the game as them instead of jumping right into an "established DDO guild."

[Bloodyfury]

/signed
Anyway, if the only point of decay was from preventing large guilds from leveling too fast, this is a bit pointless... there's absolutely NOTHING worth it once you hit the levels 80 +(except boats on 80 and 85). And when I mean nothing, it's nothing...

That would also prevents us from seeing the same guild attain the level 70 on my server for like the 60-70th times since the last 6 months! lmao They seems to have reach a deadend where they have a critical numbers of members versu what is required, not enough to make it up past 70 for good and still too large so the decay brings them down as soon as they hit 70. They are kinda the running gag now...lol

[Edstienkin]

I have a grand idea...
Lets just give everyone a permanent +2 stat buffs, +2% xp buff, and all the other buffs that a guild lvl 100 could have, and then do away with renown entirely. Why should people have to work for buffs? Just give an across the board buffing to every char in game.

/not signed

ps: "totally unwelcome in EVERY well established guild"
And what is wrong with that? Do casual players deserve to be in a high lvl guild? If someone doesn't contribute, why do you think they deserve the benefits? You can always give a ship invite to these casuals.

[Tshober]

I have a grand idea...

ps: "totally unwelcome in EVERY well established guild"
And what is wrong with that? Do casual players deserve to be in a high lvl guild? If someone doesn't contribute, why do you think they deserve the benefits? You can always give a ship invite to these casuals.

What's wrong with that is DDO is competing with other MMO's for those casual players. Will they come play DDO where they are unwelcome in all decent guilds? Or will they go play some other MMO where many of the guilds don't care if they are casual or not? You may not care about that choice, but Turbine definitely SHOULD care about it.

[Thrudh]

How about if they start decay at level 50 or 60 guild? No decay before that.

62 is really all you need... you get a large enough ship and can get all the good buffs.

70 is nice for large guild slot items

Anything past that is very minor.

[Tshober]

How about if they start decay at level 50 or 60 guild? No decay before that.

62 is really all you need... you get a large enough ship and can get all the good buffs.

70 is nice for large guild slot items

Anything past that is very minor.

All that you say here is true. But it does not address the main problem. Right now, as we are today, casual players are unwelcome in all well established guilds. Raising the level at which decay starts does nothing at all to change that. All guild leaders will still want their guild to continue to level up and so will their active guild members. The only way that can happen is if they kick out casual players and limit membership strictly to very active players. The level at which that occurs is irrelevent. If there is a higher level, human nature takes over and everyone wants it, regardless of how minor the benefit might be. My guild IS level 61 and I can assure you most emphatically that many members are not satisfied with that. As I said, I try very hard to resist the pressure to kick out casual players but is it NOT easy. DDO is not a friendly place for casual players when compared to many other MMO's, and IMO this is one of the main reasons.

[yawumpus]

All that you say here is true. But it does not address the main problem. Right now, as we are today, casual players are unwelcome in all well established guilds. Raising the level at which decay starts does nothing at all to change that. All guild leaders will still want their guild to continue to level up and so will their active guild members. The only way that can happen is if they kick out casual players and limit membership strictly to very active players. The level at which that occurs is irrelevent. If there is a higher level, human nature takes over and everyone wants it, regardless of how minor the benefit might be. My guild IS level 61 and I can assure you most emphatically that many members are not satisfied with that. As I said, I try very hard to resist the pressure to kick out casual players but is it NOT easy. DDO is not a friendly place for casual players when compared to many other MMO's, and IMO this is one of the main reasons.

First: if guilds are not meant to be exclusive, you should name them something else. Medieval and Renaissance guilds existed to limit access to their craft and gain monopoly pricing.

Second: Turbine has made it very clear that they have no intention of handing out guild level 100 to casual guilds. I have yet to see a dev look for ways to make it even easier for megaguilds to rocket to 100. While Turbine has been busy greasing the skids to 20 (at least for VIPs and those who bought the expansion), I doubt they will make the trip to 25 just as trivial. Players have a habit of leaving after reaching their goals.

Some clarifications: The issue of reknown decay only hits large guilds at high levels. And it only really becomes an issue [well only stops leveling dead] with large guilds with plenty of casual players. Small guilds with casual players simply never get to a high level.

I am in Black Sun of Orien. We have a modified guild size of 9 and a few of those are family of guildies. Don't expect them to be pulling quite the same as a true DDO addict (I suspect our supreme leader is glad his sons have interests outside of DDO). This means that we got our level 50 airship sometime in March, and probably won't hit 55 until the expansion. Quite frankly, while we will grind for guild shinies, we aren't about to change membership requirements over it. Our guild might be crazy enough to force family to show up in DDO to meet us, but at least we will meet you if you show up! The point of all this is that removing guild decay does nothing for the penalties for smaller guilds (less than 50 modified accounts) for having casual players. Judging by the numbers I see over players in Stormreach, the number of players in small guilds widely outnumber the players in large guilds.

More anecdotes (if not data):

They are not unwelcome in all guilds, just the ones that treat guild level as the be all and end all. Nothing is stopping guilds from forming two guilds and sharing a chat channel.
Legends - Elite
Legends - Casual
All of the benefits of playing with your mates, none of the downside of their casual playstyle.

It might help to hear the story from someone involved, but I believe in Orien the Forever Knights split off of The Fallen Knights for roughly this reason (I'm assuming the less reknown obsessed players kept the guild level). I think I still see Forever Knights above toon's heads, but can't remember the last time I saw a Fallen Knight.

"casual players are unwelcome in all well established guilds": Then casual players should look to up and coming guilds. It should be noted that while Turbine has made it painful to accept casual guildies, they have made it even more painful to boot them. First: booting them means a huge loss of reknown (worse considering it doesn't appear to be affected by decay) and does no good unless you boot every last active alt in that account (you get all the decay, but none of the reknown from the booted alts till you get that last alt). Second: Turbine pretty much intentionally gives no means to tell how much reknown each toon gets, or who is an alt of who (both have been screamed about almost as much as decay). If you are a casual player and want a high level guild, just look for a guild with a large, growing size (but not anywhere near 1000) and join up. The guild levels will come.

"casual players are unwelcome in all well established guilds": I'm curious how this applies to new players. Obviously, new players aren't going to be able to hit their daily quota of epartycrashers (BB and xp tomes may change this). This pretty much gets in the way of any guild mentoring programs.

[Ungood]

First: if guilds are not meant to be exclusive, you should name them something else. Medieval and Renaissance guilds existed to limit access to their craft and gain monopoly pricing.

To be fair, Guilds, in the Renaissance era were craft specific, not necessarily exclusive beyond deftness of purpose, much in the same way Unions are in the United States.

The "Guild" of MMO's is a generic "Adventures Guild" theme, in which case, anyone who is an adventurer (Which encompasses very single player in the game) may join or form a guild for adventures. There is no limiting factor beyond personal like or dislike for an individual. Which in this case, bears no resemblance to an actual Guild of the Renaissance Era, which had a deftness of purpose.

Now, if they opted to make it so we could make several kinds of Guilds, IE: Raiding Guilds, Adventure Guilds, Perma-Death Guilds, Family Guilds, and the like, that would be an idea solution, as opposed to the cookie cutter guild system they have in place now.

But as it stands, there is only "generic guild for any and every player in the game" which is where the problems start.

If they did not want casual players to make it to 100, they should make a "Casual Guild" style so that casual players are not pressured with a number over their heads, or perhaps give them the option to opt out of the whole leveling thing in it's entirety.

In the end of things, the integral issue is that Turbine is trying to force every player into a single guild mold, and it is not going over well. They really need to revisit their methodology in this regard.