Auto-grouping

[EatSmart]

I dont really see a need for this personally as the current lfm system is great for pugging. However, on the assumption that its going to happen anyway:

I'd like a preview screen of the group I'm about to be teamed into detailing what the quest is, what difficulty its on, and the current confirmed party makeup in the same overview style as you'd get from hovering your mouse over the lfm listing. A 30s to 60s accept or decline button would probably be in order to speed up the process when there are people on autojoin that fall asleep at the keyboard.

Speaking of afking. One of the biggest issues I have with automated grouping in MMOs is the inevitable abuse of the system by people who have no intention of contributing to the quest/raid/battleground/whatever. They use the anonimity of the autogrouping system to let them get groups they would otherwise not be able to get into. It is a very unpleasant experience to be in a group with said afkers, and quickly makes the game "unfun". Good examples of this were WoW's pvp queuing system around season 4-6 (can't really speak for the current system as i've not played in years). In a 40 man alterac valley team, you could easily see 10+ people sitting in the starting area doing nothing for the whole match, and the names would start to become familiar over time. If you left the match you'd get a leaver penalty (and someone else would be auto-teamed to fill your place) so you couldn't stop them from getting the completion. Our current LFM system has some protection against this, through the power the group leader has to simply decline the person applying, and to kick someone after they've joined if they were hiding behind anon. /squelch automates the decline process.

A more current example that I've experienced is StarTrek Online's fleet action system for STF missions. Players that use the autoqueue system are thrown together with no regard for "class" or ship type, and teleported into the mission. People who want to afk can do so with no penalty, beyond the detrimental effect on the fleet's ability to pew pew at stuff. Several of the missions have no ability to "fail" and be forced out of the mission, so you can be stuck in a mission where you dont have the firepower to succeed, but you cant fail and be put out of your misery. If you leave, you are flagged as a leaver and cant join other STF missions (even private ones that you personally form) for an hour. The icing on the cake is that rare loot from random kills is forced into a need or greed system on said autogroups. So said piker is merrily rolling need on everything of value too.

That ended up being quite ranty. tldr: I've seen autogrouping done very badly, and turned playing game, the object of which is to entertain, into a depressing, unfun experience that has left me angry at the product. Please be very careful how you code this feature, if at all.

[Atree]

With the myriad possible builds in DDO I have a hard time believing a random grouping mechanism would work well. How can an auto-group figure out what party composition would work in a given quest? For example my new FvS is a great trap-monkey with quite decent dps, and a wee bit of healing on the side.

I am quite happy to join PuGs for quests in my level range, but I do mouse over the existing players looking for telltales (leader below the range of allowed players and quest wanting to run an extreme dungeon on elite? No thanks!). The only PuGs I avoid like the plague are ones that have a variant of "Need heals!". From past experience these types of groups tend to assume class-based roles, which clashes with my preferred play style. I like to build multi-classed mutts that are versatile and have options in as wide a variety of situations as possible. I will attempt to heal others when I can, but refuse to be relegated to a nanny.

At the other extreme I also tend to avoid farming LFMs. I don't normally enjoy rushing past fights and objectives, especially if it involves abusing game mechanics, and quickly get bored with repeating the same quest (even if it gives good xp). I'm not a fast zerger, am usually happy to move along at a relaxed pace and get most optionals.

When I post an LFM it is generally of the "Be responsible for your own health - in progress" type. I enjoy playing the game, to the extent that I prefer to try and fail as opposed to waiting for a "perfect" group. I generally accept anybody that clicks as long as he is within the specified level range.

And in response to the silly "If you don't PuG" comment: I PuG about half of my play time. The rest of the time I mostly solo. Yes, even my well-geared legend TRs will join a PuG containing 28pt Korthos gear toons. If the player behind the toon is courteous I will go out of my way to assist him. On the flip side, if someone tries to order me about demanding I conform to his perceived view of what my playstyle should be (based on my class or whatever) I will likely ignore him and drop group at the end of the quest. The famous "Neg 10%" doesn't bother me at all (in fact I often forget to equip my VoM at the end of quests), since I know there is plenty of xp to be had in today's DDO.

finally, having a second system in parallel would further dilute the LFM panel, leading to less listed groups, and those taking longer on average to fill. That would, at the very least, give the impression of declining population and likely discourage people, especially new players.

In summary: I hope that auto-group will never make it to Lamania, let alone the live servers.

[Phemt81]

You guys have touched on some really good stuff in this thread. Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on what you would and would not like. I'm reading.

The auto-grouping function i was gonna suggest would be something like this;

When you prepare your LFM you just flag a button called "auto-group" if so, any class/level not meeting your LFM requirements get an auto decline.
All toons meeting your group settings get auto accepted on the other hand.

This is to: give less stressful mechanics to leaders; flooding their chats with requests and tells, and often they got to double check for comic people applying at level 3 for the shroud. And also allow to group faster.

This is what i had in my mind, don't know if the feature you are working on is something like this.

Last note, while i am writing this, i am thinking it would be also cool to have a new feature to include TRs in LFMs. A nice addition if the system could detect a TR toon and allow him even if one level lower the lfm requirements (for example).

Thanks for reading!

[Razcar]

If any thing the 'role' indicator will be the biggest problem here as roles in ddo are not so easily defined as 'tank', 'healer', DPS.

Yeah would be cool if you could request abilities instead of classes. Specifying a class in the LFM really does not say much about what your character can do in a game where you can multiclass three times. For example have checkboxes for:

• Trapskills
• Evasion
• Self-healing
• Healing others
• Melee DPS
• Spell DPS
• Ranged DPS
• Crowd control
• Tanking abilities
• Self-buffing
• Buffing others
• etc.

[Truga]

Razcar, I think this is a bad idea. Then you have rangers or rogues joining as DPS, when we all know the fighter and barbarian icons do MOAR DEEPS!

[Razcar]

Razcar, I think this is a bad idea. Then you have rangers or rogues joining as DPS, when we all know the fighter and barbarian icons do MOAR DEEPS!

Yes - where would it end? Wizards shield-tanking? Clerics doing traps? Bards healing? Chaos, I tell you, chaos!

[Truga]

Speaking of shield-tanking I seem to do always do it on my wizard when there's a no-sully-killing pug tod going on lately. We step into the last room, leader goes: "Who wants to tank suulo?" and silence breaks out, with 4 fighters/paladins sporting 800+ hp.

[blametroi]

Some quick toughts.

If people can't or won't read the current lfm, I wonder how they would handle a more complex ui.

You should not be able to share a quest in auto group mode. Finding the quest giver will act as a filter to keep out the "is that f2p, which house?" types.

Everyone should zone in within a short predictable time after filling. No "ships brt".

Who gets the star?

Can the leader opt to short man the quest if the group isn't filling?

[Terebinthia]

I'm pleased that it's going to be an opt in option, for starters. Good stuff.

What I'm very confused about is how autogrouping would jive with the varying difficulty levels we have for instances, and indeed the varying difficulty between instances. I've not played a lot of other MMOs, but it feels like the instances in the ones I have are flatter in terms of difficulty and party requirements. DDO seems from what I've heard and seen to have a much richer instance experience that's pretty unique within MMOs. Seems like a tough order to quantify that.

Also, any individual's personal objectives are so different. I know when I play and am in the mood for PUGGing, there's a host of objectives I might be interested in completing at any one time. I might be interested in a lower level quest on Elite for favour, or a normal quest above level for Bravery Bonus for flagging, or in furthering my Elite streak in an at level quest in some cases, but not others (Elite Crucible or Elite Wiz King come to mind, auto-grouping would be, uh, interesting there). I might be open to a quick zerg through an explorer area if I'm about to leave the level range for it. How on earth would you be able to quantify all that to an auto grouping system in any way that's meaningful?

I has a confuse, basically.

[sweez]

then just make the 10% Flawless Victory bonus a per-character bonus instead of for the group as a whole... if YOU don't die, you still get the bonus, even if you let all your party members die in your zerg to completion. How about that?

I'm pretty sure people have been asking for that to be changed ever since it was implemented, yet Turbine odes not budge.

How about a truly revolutionary idea? Add an XP bonus that party members VOTE on who gets... the person most helpful to newbs or who does the most to ensure completion and/or survival. Options include anything up to voting for your top 3 choices and giving 1st, 2nd and 3rd prize XP bonuses. This, of course, would only occur in the new Autogroups. Maybe that would not only encourage the elitists to use the system, but to actually try to mentor the less-skilled.

So, a system that would reward more didactically talented people? Why would that be a factor in a video game that's, other than a handful of high-end raids, really easy to learn?

[sweez]

Frankly, if you never PUG, you have no business even weighing in on this discussion. It doesn't apply to you anyway, and you're just clogging the channel with FUD.



My apologies.. What I should have said was, 'If you never PUG, you have no business even weighing in on this discussion after Phax clearly stated it will not be mandatory..'

Is that better?

The times devs have "clearly stated" something, if I could have a penny... are you sure you're actually playing DDO?

[sweez]

Some quick toughts.

If people can't or won't read the current lfm, I wonder how they would handle a more complex ui.

This.

I love to take pot shots at Turbine, but even I have to admit: with grouping in DDO right now, it's not the system that's the problem, it's the people using it

[sweez]

I has a confuse, basically.

Is that not your default state though?

[Silverleafeon]

You guys have touched on some really good stuff in this thread. Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on what you would and would not like. I'm reading.

Fast grouping, instant teleporting to a dungeon, ability to choose several quests, possible grouping with another world?

Sounds good to me.

Kinda already know what to expect from pick up groups and what quests a typical group can or cannot handle.

Please ensure bravery bonus streaks are protected.

Who would be the "party leader"?
Should there be a vote button? lol
Maybe it will not matter with the party already formed.

Lol, don't involve My DDO till it shows my character as something other than last year's model.

Ship buffs?
I don't suppose ship buffs will pause outside of dungeons someday?
I guess one would buff up then apply.

Not sure how the model of party composition would be?
Could you specify your preferences?
Lack of healers could slow things down.

If all the worlds are on the same computer, would this allow interworld grouping?

[Tsuarok]

Unless it's cross-server, I really don't see the point. Groups I lead are already more or less random (I usually advertise taking the first to apply). The elitists and control freaks won't use it, the rest don't need it. Now if it's cross server, so that you have a much larger player pool to work with, that would be worth using.

[MrkGrismer]

But don't you see, this would be amazing as another option, to be checked on or off. Auto-start when the party is full, with an instant teleport to the beginning of the quest, would be HUGE.

Get all your preparations done, then click-click-click and in a quest with a full party would be... a shining feature in the MMO world.

Obviously, only quests you've discovered/are eligible for, etc...

Would that come with an auto-share-plz?

[Silverleafeon]

ISpeaking of afking. One of the biggest issues I have with automated grouping in MMOs is the inevitable abuse of the system by people who have no intention of contributing to the quest/raid/battleground/whatever. They use the anonimity of the autogrouping system to let them get groups they would otherwise not be able to get into. It is a very unpleasant experience to be in a group with said afkers, and quickly makes the game "unfun"...

This does raise my eyebrows in concern...

[MrkGrismer]

just make the 10% Flawless Victory bonus a per-character bonus instead of for the group as a whole... if YOU don't die, you still get the bonus, even if you let all your party members die in your zerg to completion. How about that?

I would actually like that option, stupid hirelings have no respect for the flawless victory bonus.

[Ungood]

I believe this could be a good thing if it was limited to just the average typical exp grind quests that most people tend to look for groups for. We all need to level, and quest and all that jazz, and getting an auto-group to exp-grind might be a great thing, meet new people and have some fun, and even if someone pikes, it's not a game breaker. Not to mention that the loot on a typical average quests is not super amazing anyway, so no feeling of someone riding your coattails.

I would however, be a bit annoyed if they did auto-grouping for raids, pre-raids, and chain end quests, those should be selective and limited to just the controlled LFM panel we already have, as they tend to require more effort and resources to complete then typical grind quests.

Just my humble feelings on the matter.

[KanedaEX]

This could be an option to connect people hows seeking to do the same thing, without having to wait 4ever for groups to fill.