Auto-grouping

[lugoman]

I vote for auto groping!

[GeneralDiomedes]

I vote for auto groping!

and auto-groupies

[Claransa]

I vote for if its not broke don't fix it, fix the bugs already in the game instead.

we don't need more.

[Ralmeth]

I run PUG groups all the time and what I'd like to see in an auto-group feature is:

Optional LFM Feature
When you put up a LFM you have the option of selecting auto-group, but you could use the LFM panel like it currently is too, if you wanted. Also there shouldn't be any XP or loot bonuses for auto-grouping. It should be an optional feature that you can use if you want to. IMHO if the system is designed well, then it shouldn't need any incentives. The advantage for using auto-group is that you should be able to put groups together faster. THAT is incentive enough for me as I hate waiting for a group to fill.

Certain Roles Filled
You should be able to qualify that you have at least one of a certain role filled (ex. a healer, a trapper, etc). That way when your group gets filled up your not left without a healer, for example.

Level / Difficulty
Of course, you should be able to select what level the characters are that are joining your group and what difficulty level they would be interested in running.

Group Style
Optionally, it would be interesting if you could select a group style so that people go into groups of more like-minded people. For example, you could select Zerg, Modest Pace or Slow/No Spoilers. That way if you're running a quest you've done a zillion times you can select zerg or modest pace but if you're running a new quest for the first time, then you could select Slow/No spoilers.

Clicking on the LFM
It should also be possible for people to click on the LFM even if you have auto-group turned on. When it comes to certain roles, half the time I will recruit for them as this is generally the fastest way IMHO to get that role filled if your not lucky enough for someone to hit the LFM. When I find someone interested in joining my group they should be able to join.

No Auto Start
You should definitely not auto start / auto load into the quest. Instead, the auto group feature should just help you put a PUG together like the current LFM panel is, but hopefully better.

If the system worked like this I would use it to put groups together.

[HarveyMilk]

No Auto Start
You should definitely not auto start / auto load into the quest. Instead, the auto group feature should just help you put a PUG together like the current LFM panel is, but hopefully better.

But don't you see, this would be amazing as another option, to be checked on or off. Auto-start when the party is full, with an instant teleport to the beginning of the quest, would be HUGE.

Get all your preparations done, then click-click-click and in a quest with a full party would be... a shining feature in the MMO world.

Obviously, only quests you've discovered/are eligible for, etc...

[Zistra]

I dunno if I support auto-grouping or not. I've read good arguments for and against (and the usual fearmongering and handwringing of course).

I frequently PUG.. mostly, in fact. I generally am satisfied with the quality of groups I run with, with occasional glaring exceptions. Those exceptions don't convince me that PUGging is awful, just that some players are. I don't much care most of the time who joins my group, as long as certain necessary roles are filled. That being said, I think there could be a better solution.

Currently, groups are formed in one of a few ways:
1. A group of friends or guild buddies organizes a private group and nobody else ever even knows it happened.
2. Someone posts in General Chat that they're looking to run a particular quest and need someone to join (usually in Korthos or the Harbor).
3. The LFM system: posting that you want to/plan to run a particular quest at a particular difficulty and are looking for people to come along.
4. The LFG system. Almost never used, far as I can tell, it puts an ugly green icon over your head that supposedly says "I'm looking to run SOMETHING".. oh, and the Who list can be configured to show only people who have flagged themselves that way.
5. The headhunter system: A group formed in one of the above ways is missing a critical role and searches their guild listings or the Who list for everyone with the appropriate class (or whatever) and personally attempts to recruit them.

Maybe the autogroup concept fills a hole here, but I think a better fit would be a system whereby I could flag on my Adventures list which quests I'm interested in running ATM. The game could take all such flags and aggregate them into a master list of who is currently interested in what. Then players could deliberately pick a quest to lead and simply select from that master list the people who have indicated willingness to run it. Ideally, the person putting the group together could simply click each name and have an automatic message sent to that player to ask if they are still interested in running such-and-such a quest. If the party is short-handed after that, there should be an option to transfer the nascent group to a traditional LFM to fill.

The person choosing to put together a group would then retain the option to pick among available candidates to fill their group, selecting for roles, classes, or whatever best suited them, assuming more people indicated interest in a particular quest than was necessary to fill it.

Most often, as a frequent PUGger, I find myself with several at-level quests I'd be willing to run at any given moment, and join the first one that someone posts an LFM for. Not being VIP, I am sometimes reluctant to post an LFM that has to specify 'needs opener'.

Might also be nice if the master list indicated the difficulty levels that a given player could open, as well as the difficulty(ies) at which they would be willing to run any given quest. And possibly an indication of whether a Streak or Bravery Bonus was being sought would be helpful.

Not sure if this suggestion as presented is unweildy. But the concept that aggregating information about willingness to run quests would allow for more flexibility in forming groups, I think, is valid: More complex than an autogroup function, but also meeting more needs.

[Dark_Helmet]

You guys have touched on some really good stuff in this thread. Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on what you would and would not like. I'm reading.

Auto-grouping will be about as popular as accepting guild requests, show portrait on a vitals bar and soft targeting (some of the first things that people turn off); Only those who don't know enough will use it.

To me, DDO was a different MMO as it was more social friendly - like being in a tour group (with your friends or people with similar likes) - while auto-grouping was just being thrown together - like jumping on a public bus (ignoring others as you all went to the same destination).



To be fair, it won't be as catastrophic as the "Offering Wall" and the "Turbine Download Manager". It just doesn't deserve any fanfare.

[sirgog]

The more I think about this feature, the more I think it should apply to Casual and Normal difficulty only.

Generally devs tune those difficulties to require no coordination, and low-quality but sensibly selected gear.

Hard and Elite generally require a bit more.

Hard you usually want at least one of the following:
Medium to good gear
Competent leadership
A group that works together well
Well-built toons
Overlevel characters
Or above-average player skills.

Elite is generally designed assuming you have about three of those six criteria met.


Random groups are, well, random, and generally have a wild mix of gear, builds and playskill, no leadership, no coordination, and no overlevel characters. As such I'd expect them to have serious difficulty above Normal. Even if you take a group with six people that could all participate (and pull their weight) in a well-led Elite run, they will likely struggle in a random group.


Edit: Maybe add Hard if the group has the benefit of being 2 levels overlevel, and Elite if you are 5 levels over. With the XP modifiers available now, running things that far overlevel is still good XP if you have first-time bonuses.

[Zistra]

The more I read in this thread, the more I'm confusing elite and elitist. Lot of the latter floating around. Maybe what DDO needs is the ability for those who feel too good to run with us commoners (who aren't uber-geared Legends with static friend groups of same) to be ported to a server of their own where they don't need to rub shoulders with their lessers. No need for an autogroup feature on THAT server, of course.

As for the greatest fears expressed here: 'They're gonna force us...' (Seriously? And risk losing their most dedicated players?) or 'Somebody in my group might *gasp* die...', well. then just make the 10% Flawless Victory bonus a per-character bonus instead of for the group as a whole... if YOU don't die, you still get the bonus, even if you let all your party members die in your zerg to completion. How about that?

Frankly, if you never PUG, you have no business even weighing in on this discussion. It doesn't apply to you anyway, and you're just clogging the channel with FUD.

How about a truly revolutionary idea? Add an XP bonus that party members VOTE on who gets... the person most helpful to newbs or who does the most to ensure completion and/or survival. Options include anything up to voting for your top 3 choices and giving 1st, 2nd and 3rd prize XP bonuses. This, of course, would only occur in the new Autogroups. Maybe that would not only encourage the elitists to use the system, but to actually try to mentor the less-skilled.

[DarkAlchemist]

The more I read in this thread, the more I'm confusing elite and elitist. Lot of the latter floating around. Maybe what DDO needs is the ability for those who feel too good to run with us commoners (who aren't uber-geared Legends with static friend groups of same) to be ported to a server of their own where they don't need to rub shoulders with their lessers. No need for an autogroup feature on THAT server, of course.

As for the greatest fears expressed here: 'They're gonna force us...' (Seriously? And risk losing their most dedicated players?) or 'Somebody in my group might *gasp* die...', well. then just make the 10% Flawless Victory bonus a per-character bonus instead of for the group as a whole... if YOU don't die, you still get the bonus, even if you let all your party members die in your zerg to completion. How about that?

Frankly, if you never PUG, you have no business even weighing in on this discussion. It doesn't apply to you anyway, and you're just clogging the channel with FUD.

How about a truly revolutionary idea? Add an XP bonus that party members VOTE on who gets... the person most helpful to newbs or who does the most to ensure completion and/or survival. Options include anything up to voting for your top 3 choices and giving 1st, 2nd and 3rd prize XP bonuses. This, of course, would only occur in the new Autogroups. Maybe that would not only encourage the elitists to use the system, but to actually try to mentor the less-skilled.

I guess you didn't read where Turbine forced it over in LOTRO to get what you used to get without it so they very well could force it here. It is, afterall, the same company.

As far as the die part I have had plenty of TRs rage quit when someone dies (heck, it just happened a few days ago and we just continued with 5) so I agree removing the 10% penalty (rather lack of bonus when someone dies) would help a little but for us who do not have static groups and live off of the LFM/ Pug scene I really don't see this changing anything with its implementation. It didn't help in LOTRO and I doubt it will help here after its newness factor wears off.

[JollySwagMan]

I'd like to restate my suggestion of the quest name/difficulty recap message in party panel upon entering the group

Also requesting that auto-grouping for a quest is only possible when it has been picked up already, and can only be selected for quests that the player has access to.

This will make a smoother experience for everyone

[Lanzaur]

I dont really like the idea of auto grouping in DDO. Unlike other mmorpg, the role definition in DDO is not clear at all. Will the feature be like 1 Arcane 1 healer 1 trapper 2 DPS? Every quest has different requirement, auto grouping will just form failed group all the time if it is fixed across the board.

Maybe you can set up roles for people to apply for. Example: "Apply as trapper" "Apply as CC" "Apply as dps" "Apply as healer" "Apply as stunner". Unless auto grouping is fine tuned, i dont see how it can work for a game with so many different builds and roles

[Zistra]

Frankly, if you never PUG, you have no business even weighing in on this discussion. It doesn't apply to you anyway, and you're just clogging the channel with FUD.

I guess you didn't read where Turbine forced it over in LOTRO to get what you used to get without it so they very well could force it here. It is, afterall, the same company.

My apologies.. What I should have said was, 'If you never PUG, you have no business even weighing in on this discussion after Phax clearly stated it will not be mandatory..'

Is that better?

[Simplesimon1979]

I'd probably use it for basic stuff. Login and select I want to rund DQ, Reavers, and shroud today. I can do whatever then till a group is full. ToD and the other high ones I would use the LFM for.

[DarkAlchemist]

Frankly, if you never PUG, you have no business even weighing in on this discussion. It doesn't apply to you anyway, and you're just clogging the channel with FUD.



My apologies.. What I should have said was, 'If you never PUG, you have no business even weighing in on this discussion after Phax clearly stated it will not be mandatory..'

Is that better?

I do PUG and I always PUG over there and here as that is how I level plus I believe Phax, at this moment in time, believes it will not be but I, as a pugger, do not believe it will remain that way. Many times a dev has chimed in on something to say it will be one way and eventually it changes AND this is exactly what I suspect will happen.

My concern is that Turbine forced it over there on us and it will force it on us over here. They may not think so right now but it could happen and if it happened over there I bet it does over here.

[DavionFuxa]

These new grouping options will be in addition to the existing DDO grouping mechanics/LFM.

If you don't want to use the new system, there is no requirement to do so, and no bonuses attached to it.

It's a solution that is very DDO specific and integrated into the way DDO party/LFM mechanics already work.

I'll talk with Glin about getting more info about the system to you guys soon. I just want to tamper the Doo0000m!!! .

You guys have touched on some really good stuff in this thread. Feel free to continue sharing your thoughts on what you would and would not like. I'm reading.

It's rather hard to say anything on this subject since you really haven't given us enough information on how the system would work or if you are revamping anything else in regards to the Party System. Just to give you an idea, here are some questions I wouldn't mind getting answered after a bit of contemplating

"Who is this system Aimed at and how does it it Help Them?"
"How would Auto-grouping work in DDO?"
"Would it be possible to use the Auto-group feature and be able to play with a friend or would it be entirely random?"
"How would Squelched Players be Treated in the New System, or how might we avoid playing with characters/players/guilds would not like to play with"
"Would some customization options be available in forming a group and what options wouldn't be available?
"How would Experience Bonus' work or be applied in the new system, IE. Bravery Bonus?"

All in all I think this could be an interesting addition and if it is a standalone feature that we don't have to use then I see no harm in it being included in methods for forming a group. However, be sure to note that I probably wouldn't like to see further changes done to it once it's in - unless those changes are to remove it from the game.

[donblas]

These new grouping options will be in addition to the existing DDO grouping mechanics/LFM.

If you don't want to use the new system, there is no requirement to do so, and no bonuses attached to it.

It's a solution that is very DDO specific and integrated into the way DDO party/LFM mechanics already work.

I'll talk with Glin about getting more info about the system to you guys soon. I just want to tamper the Doo0000m!!! .

It's obviously good that autogrouping won't be compulsory, but I'm concerned that there won't be compensatory bonuses attached to using a system that will have negatives for people playing in it.

When you run your own quests, you can select the quest you run and the difficulty. This provides you with: targeted favor rewards, which a random quest might not (say if you've already run it); and the possibility of a bravery bonus, which a random quest might not, or may even break.

You won't be able to filter what you consider unsuitable toons from your group, which might increase the chance of deaths and so less XP or longer completion times, or even more chance of failure and no XP.

What will stop players from taking one look at the group they are randomly grouped with and saying, "What a load of gimps" and leaving unless there is some incentive to tough it out?

[Elaril]

and auto-groupies

They sound hot.

[DarkAlchemist]

It's rather hard to say anything on this subject since you really haven't given us enough information on how the system would work or if you are revamping anything else in regards to the Party System. Just to give you an idea, here are some questions I wouldn't mind getting answered after a bit of contemplating

"Who is this system Aimed at and how does it it Help Them?"
"How would Auto-grouping work in DDO?"
"Would it be possible to use the Auto-group feature and be able to play with a friend or would it be entirely random?"
"How would Squelched Players be Treated in the New System, or how might we avoid playing with characters/players/guilds would not like to play with"
"Would some customization options be available in forming a group and what options wouldn't be available?
"How would Experience Bonus' work or be applied in the new system, IE. Bravery Bonus?"

All in all I think this could be an interesting addition and if it is a standalone feature that we don't have to use then I see no harm in it being included in methods for forming a group. However, be sure to note that I probably wouldn't like to see further changes done to it once it's in - unless those changes are to remove it from the game.

Very good questions indeed as I would like to see those answered as well.

It's obviously good that autogrouping won't be compulsory, but I'm concerned that there won't be compensatory bonuses attached to using a system that will have negatives for people playing in it.

When you run your own quests, you can select the quest you run and the difficulty. This provides you with: targeted favor rewards, which a random quest might not (say if you've already run it); and the possibility of a bravery bonus, which a random quest might not, or may even break.

You won't be able to filter what you consider unsuitable toons from your group, which might increase the chance of deaths and so less XP or longer completion times, or even more chance of failure and no XP.

What will stop players from taking one look at the group they are randomly grouped with and saying, "What a load of gimps" and leaving unless there is some incentive to tough it out?

This is what I wrote about earlier where someone will /ragequit seeing who/what is in the auto-group and the auto-group has already been formed. So, what do we all do then?

[Flavilandile]

Ok, now that I've had time to think about the concept and the idea...

To us established players it's a Hell No ( mainly ) answer to such a concept.

The reasons are numerous but the most importants are :
- We want to play with friends. LFM panel is useful when we need to reform ( Private LFM ).

- We want to play with friends. If we are lacking one body or two to fill the party, and we have a strong group already we are willing to take the risk to invite one or two PUGs to help/hinder us.

- We want to maximize our XP/minute ratio. So we are very selective in our choice of people we invite in our parties.

- We want to succeed, so we are not willing to babysit a whole party.

- We want to do quests on elite because of that stupid BB, and wants to make sure that the applicants knows the quest.

[...lots more reasons...]

So for us the actual LFM system is working fine, with it's nuisances and all.

Now an auto grouping system, at a guess, would work the following way :
- you select a quest,
- you select a difficulty, ( that will be mandatory due to the stupid BB )
- you select the 'slot' you want to fill,
- you click ok and you wait.

Once all the slots are filled everybody is teleported inside the quest at the entrance and put in a party.

Now that's going to be extremely fun... because as everybody here knows... DDO is not a mainstream game and you can't pigeonhole a character into a role unless the player behind wants to be pigeonholed into.
So a Spellcaster can also go melee ( especially so as AC is meaningless at High Level ), a Healer can just kill everything on sight before the rest of the party has a chance to swing at it while healing the party with his aura, and so on.
And I won't even go into the Battlecleric and the not-healing Favored Soul, the Healing Bard, the Assassin that can't open locks and disarm traps, the Clonk and so on...

So basically this system is not meant for us and can only come as a second way to form parties for those that might be lost by the LFM panel and what is written on it.

Now lets consider the targeted group of this system :
- People new to the game totally lost in the complexity of the game.
- People new to the game that comes from other MMO where roles are clear cut.
- people new to the game that comes from other MMO with such a system.
- The eventual DDO veteran that just wants to add spice to a boring quest he could have done alone.
- The eventual DDO veteran that tries to show The Truth to new players.
- The eventual DDO veteran with his heap of grease clickies that wants to have fun at the expanse of new players.

All in all, and as long as it does not impact the current LFM system, it might be for the best.