ugh remind me to log on as annonymous

[Abbeville]

It is fairly common knowledge guild level does not equate to guild skill level....

Ah but you see these guilds in this raid are known for there so called skill

[Ssdprref]

Well, Throwing mass Cure will waste your SP pool way faster than throwing Mass Heals.

Don't expect others to drink pots just because you are drinking them.

If they ask you in a tell to join them, something is wrong in the first place.

If you ran out of SP, Pick a good melee or a ranger, and scroll heal him.

Maybe the other cleric was dotting.

My mass heals hit for over 800 most of the time. But I never throw them or spam them, if the second healer enjoys throwing mass Cure every 3 seconds that's his problem.

[Gimpinator]

If your raid group doesn't consist of at least one of my toons, you should brace yourself for the inevitable failure.

[Ministry]

It is fairly common knowledge guild level does not equate to guild skill level....

THIS!

Not only does it not equate to skill level, but it also lacks a positive correlation between that and manners. In many situations, guild level has an inverse relation to manners (In this case I mean noting mana pot usage / taking care of the healers).

I've run with so many guilds and find there is less and less correlation between guild level, skill level and manners.

There are a few exceptions and they know who they are... my fav in this area is Inferus Sus. A long time classic guild that has always embodied high skill level + class, which has obviously kept good people and attracted more = High guild level.

In fact, I prefer to solo or shortman as much as possible and / or run with smaller less known guilds that usually lack the egos that "often" are associated with larger and / or higher level guilds. I am so bored of seeing the same LFM's... Know it... BYOH.... NO NOOBS... Link your DR breaksers (that's my least fav... ya, okay... just for you I will link my +1 Holy Burst Silver Rapiers of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane... ugg).

What ever happened to consideration for less than perfect players? Weren't we all less than perfect once? Almost gone from the scene are the players that can take anyone or any mix through almost anything.

One of the few people I still see offering to help do this is Protokon/Firstaidkit. I'm sure there are more, but when I can only remember one name, things have fallen.

I NEVER pug out my Cleric. He is always anonymous. The only time I ever heal is when I'm running with friends. If you run with friends, they will most likely play with your style / capabilities / pot usage in mind.

For advice, I always fall back to what Bunk stated back a number of points ago... decide who you are, what you are prepared to do / sacrifice / etc in time and / or pot usage to complete.

[Ivan_Milic]

Of course it is and that is the fortune cookie I am trying to give you. If your healer is good, that is good in more runs than bad that will be remembered. You don't need to save every fail group to make a positive name for yourself. Learn to know when to cut your losses. Learn to measure victory versus acceptable resources and don't get in over your head. Those things gave me a good rep on the server I started on as well as a server I started as an unknown as.

What he said,also not many people playing divines say they drank a pot or two,most of them dont even say anything about it,idk why,there were also few times when I had to say to them its not worth drinking a pot when you half way through raid,they will just have to drink more and its not worth it.

[jeremyt]

*snip*
In fact, I prefer to solo or shortman as much as possible and / or run with smaller less known guilds that usually lack the egos that "often" are associated with larger and / or higher level guilds. I am so bored of seeing the same LFM's... Know it... BYOH.... NO NOOBS... Link your DR breaksers (that's my least fav... ya, okay... just for you I will link my +1 Holy Burst Silver Rapiers of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane... ugg).

What ever happened to consideration for less than perfect players? Weren't we all less than perfect once? Almost gone from the scene are the players that can take anyone or any mix through almost anything.

One of the few people I still see offering to help do this is Protokon/Firstaidkit. I'm sure there are more, but when I can only remember one name, things have fallen.

I NEVER pug out my Cleric. He is always anonymous. The only time I ever heal is when I'm running with friends. If you run with friends, they will most likely play with your style / capabilities / pot usage in mind.
*snip*

Ok i'll bite. So you perfer so solo/shortman, I understand that completely. On the same boat actually. When im hitting quests for XP solo, sometimes I will throw the LFM panel a bone and post. I DO state BYOH ect because..im running it solo, im not slowing down, im there to kick some booty and grab some XP, i personally am not looking to teach/handhold/take XP penalties/slow down. This is common sense, the flags on my LFMs basically signal a fast pace, no hand holding DDO experience..which you admittedly gravitate towards (solo/shortman preference) but your sick and tired of seeing those LFMs? dubya T ef? Isnt staying solo and NOT posting these LFMs a much greater evil in light of the topic your talking about?

And linking DR breakers for content that requires them for you to be a useful contributor, how is that so painful? right clicking a item icon after a /r or a /tell really outweighs a raid leader's desire to have all the other 11 people contributing as much as they can sans pikers?

And then after your overview of the social state of thelanis/DDO you state that you NEVER pug with your healer...holy shoogly oogly that is RIPE with irony!

[Ministry]

... but your sick and tired of seeing those LFMs? dubya T ef? Isnt staying solo and NOT posting these LFMs a much greater evil in light of the topic your talking about?

Not even close. All I read about and hear about is the "elite" LFM posters listing the parameters of their run. Post and expect people to not f up and if they do... They get ripped apart by the posters. Too many times we see the posters ****ed at "noobs" joining their runs and slowing them down or costing them 10%. Conversely, we have the so called "noobs" stating just because they missed a saving throw and died or took a wrong turn and cost the "elite" a few minutes... they get ripped apart. Why do the elites post at all when they know there is a chance someone will get on their run and slow them down or cost them xp? Just to prove their uberness or to complain about them? Staying solo or running short with friends is so far from evil in comparison. Not bothering anyone is evil?

And linking DR breakers for content that requires them for you to be a useful contributor, how is that so painful? right clicking a item icon after a /r or a /tell really outweighs a raid leader's desire to have all the other 11 people contributing as much as they can sans pikers?

Tired of seeing because they are sad. People use to myddo (not sure if they still do that) to look at who is hitting their LFM to determine if they have the "right stuff". Now they want you to link your DR breaker. In the good ole days when good players could take any mix of people through any raid and complete, no one asked to have DR breakers linked. Doesn't almost everyone have a DR breaker and for the odd one that hits your precious LFM and doesn't have one... who cares. What, it will cost you an extra minute to complete?

And then after your overview of the social state of thelanis/DDO you state that you NEVER pug with your healer...holy shoogly oogly that is RIPE with irony!

There are so many reasons not to pug a healer that too many people have already listed. Primarily it's about helping your friends and those who appreciate your help and stay away from those who won't appreciate your assistance. I see where you are attempting to connect the dots, but pugging a healer is just asking for trouble. I tried a few times some time ago. Got onto a few teams and thought... hmmm... they have had their post up for a while and no one is biting. So, I join and it is a horrible experience with players who don't know how or don't want to do things in a way that will be effective. I can deal with don't know how to, because I'm happy to try and help... but don't want to just causes a horrible waste of time and resources to complete. It would be quicker to solo or do with friends. So, once again... pugging a healer is a risk that just isn't worth it. I've read the "friends don't let friends pug" or "I can't / don't heal stupid" quotes on so many bios. I'm quite certain there are a lot of people that agree with that.

Too many times I remember joining teams on my healer or seeing SO many posts about people joining pugs with their healers. Off everyone runs like idiots thinking the healer is going to chase after them going in different directions and keep them alive. Then, only to blame the healer for not keeping them alive when it was physically impossible or doing so at an incredible cost in resources and time. So, why pug your healer? In the small hope that you might find a decent team that doesn't cost you in time and resources... or because you are altruistic?

I think people should post more LFM's and just accept whomever with whatever gear and we should all pug more and find ways to win. I joined a raid the other day and there were 6 arcanes, 3 healers and 3 beaters and we had a blast. Was it the optimal party for the raid? No. Did anyone ask anyone to link their DR breaker? No. Did we complete? Easily. The raid leader from Bane was laughing about the makeup of the party, but never once expressed any concern and made an adjustment or 2 and done. Good leaders can get anything done. I think if more people did this, more people might pug their healers more, including me. No expectations other than it being okay to not be perfect, make a mistake and maybe consider helping make the healers job a little easier or compensating them if things go awry and they have to chug a whack of pots. It was like this a few years ago and things seemed to be a bit more fun and there was a lot less of people blaming others.

[Chai]

Let it fail them point out the disparity of your mana bar -vs- the other healers mana bar to anyone who gets mad about it.

If you guzzle your way to victory this causes noobs to expect you to compensate for huge mistakes each time, and if you dont then they holler at you. If we dont set this expectation, and keep the expectation of running the raid correctly or wiping, this will be less pressure on healers.

I see this too much already where people think they can just do whatever they want and healers will just powerheal them through any chicanery, including not waiting for buffs, running in opposite directions etc.

[WruntJunior]

Tired of seeing because they are sad. People use to myddo (not sure if they still do that) to look at who is hitting their LFM to determine if they have the "right stuff". Now they want you to link your DR breaker. In the good ole days when good players could take any mix of people through any raid and complete, no one asked to have DR breakers linked. Doesn't almost everyone have a DR breaker and for the odd one that hits your precious LFM and doesn't have one... who cares. What, it will cost you an extra minute to complete?

Just feel the need to say...with the way the game is now, the extra time from people not doing as much damage as they should be (not using DR breakers, for example, or not being able to hit the boss) can cause a raid to fail by making it take long enough for the healers to run out of mana. Especially for a raid on hard or elite, "Link DR Breaker" is perfectly acceptable...for normal shroud or such, though, that's the only kind of time it doesn't count.

Also, I used to pug my healers on Thelanis a lot (don't have a capped healer at the moment due to TRing), and while I very rarely found a super-star group, I find very very few groups as bad as you talk about. If anyone finds that every group they join on their healer is horrible....well, maybe the problem isn't the groups they keep joining.

In addition...for all raids, more casters = quicker, easier run. Saying a 9 caster/3 melee run went smoothly does very little for what you're saying.

Edit: For pugging a healer, there's always two important rules to follow: Soul stones require no heals, and some runs simply fail. Don't drink a crapload of pots to rectify either situation when they're caused by stupid players.

[axel15810]

This is what I do to decide whether to let the group wipe or not - If in round 4 you can see your mana is being depleted faster than harry's HP say you don't have many pots and ask for reimbursements in voicechat. If nobody offers to contribute don't drink any and let the group wipe. If you get ridiculed for it say "Sorry but nobody offered to pay back SP pots, not my fault." The intelligent players will understand, you won't get a rad reputation for it. If a group is having trouble in round 4 then normally they have no shot in round 5 so I won't even waste a single pot if we are having major problems. If we get to the end of round 4 and I need to drink 1 I don't mind absorbing the cost. **** happens.

In round 5 if we get to the end and Harry's health is very low and I have to drink a pot or 2 I will absorb the cost. But if I can tell multiple pots will be needed I always ask for reimbursements before we start fighting harry and if none are offered I say I'm not using any. From round 4 you should have a really good idea how many pots will be needed for success in round 5.

You really have to be insistent as a healer or people will just run all over you and not contribute at all to healing costs. That's one thing I've learned.

Also just don't group with parties that look bad. Low HPs, lack of casters is always a huge red flag and I always avoid those groups unless we are running on normal.

[Denegrator]

It is fairly common knowledge guild level does not equate to guild skill level....

What he said.

[MeliCat]

There are so many reasons not to pug a healer that too many people have already listed. Primarily it's about helping your friends and those who appreciate your help and stay away from those who won't appreciate your assistance. I see where you are attempting to connect the dots, but pugging a healer is just asking for trouble. I tried a few times some time ago. Got onto a few teams and thought... hmmm... they have had their post up for a while and no one is biting. So, I join and it is a horrible experience with players who don't know how or don't want to do things in a way that will be effective. I can deal with don't know how to, because I'm happy to try and help... but don't want to just causes a horrible waste of time and resources to complete. It would be quicker to solo or do with friends. So, once again... pugging a healer is a risk that just isn't worth it. I've read the "friends don't let friends pug" or "I can't / don't heal stupid" quotes on so many bios. I'm quite certain there are a lot of people that agree with that.

Too many times I remember joining teams on my healer or seeing SO many posts about people joining pugs with their healers. Off everyone runs like idiots thinking the healer is going to chase after them going in different directions and keep them alive. Then, only to blame the healer for not keeping them alive when it was physically impossible or doing so at an incredible cost in resources and time. So, why pug your healer? In the small hope that you might find a decent team that doesn't cost you in time and resources... or because you are altruistic?

I think you have to be the type of person who actually likes pugging a healer ... to like pugging a healer. Sounds to me like this is not something you enjoy much and that's ok. Pugging my healer I go in knowing that I may well get treated like a hireling, be referred to as 'the cleric' rather than my name and that there may well be a total disregard for damage mitigation smart play or resources used. I go in with my eyes open and have had much fun as well as funny horror stories to tell in channel

I really love running with Jeremyt - and on my healer too. He never makes a fuss about 10% and will reassure me when the grumpy pugger dies I have been unable to keep alive that it was a BYOH run and they have no right to make a fuss.

Just have to go in with your eyes open, expectations low and having fun (even if it's just having a horror story to gossip over).

OP I feel for you :/ you went in with a certain set of expectations and that didn't happen and wasn't noticed. Take a note of the raid leader for future reference? Certain raid leaders are better at noting resource usage than others.

[axel15810]

I feel you on pug healers taking lots of ****. Just tonight I jumped on a hard shroud pug. I was the 4th to join. Besides my cleric we had 2 arcanes, 2 fighters, 5 rangers and 1 arti and 1 bard. We then waited for 1 more healer outside the gate. This screams serious lack of HP, dots and DPS to me. After seeing who the leader accepted I told them I was not comfortable doing hard with this party, but I'd be willing to norm. I could also tell from voicechat that many of the players were new (they originally wanted to try elite with this party which I LOLed at inside) He didn't agree which is fine so I dropped. Half the group followed.

I then got several PMs from the group leader giving me **** about dropping. An hour or 2 later he sent me another tell explaining how he and the rest of the party that didn't leave ended up filling up and getting through hard. He just wanted to give me more **** I guess.

I hate people harassing me like this. I can drop group whenever I want to on a shroud run if we haven't started. If I don't feel the party has a good enough chance of getting through the run I'm dropping before it starts. I'm not going to go into a party I feel has a good chance of wiping. Just because I'm a divine doesn't mean I'm obligated to stay on your horribly constructed shroud party.

I will continue to pug heal though because most experiences are not like this.

ok

/end rant

[Antheal]

/p "OMG lagging! Other cleric needs to take over for a while!"

[twiliteslayer02]

The pots are not the issue again. First off i dont like letting stuff fail. I know thats my own fault. I know that on normal situations that the raid shoulda let them die. I do have trouble saying enough is enough.

Again tho, Im not going to let a raid fail that has friends in it if i can stop it. I have enough pots i dont need the reimbursment I brought this up as more of an awarness that the high lvl guilds can lead crappy raids just as much as a low lvl. The party makeup was horriable i think there was only 5 melee above 400 hit points the rest were arcane archers or casters.

The was no over healing on my part as someone else stated. If i didnt have a heal going the other cleric didnt and people started to drop.

Sorry if some of you have a problem with my post. The fact of the matter is that there has been plenty of post on this servers forum asking where have the healers gone. Well im hanging out in my own guild most of the time because of stuff like this or posting my own lfms so i can be selective.

Sorry that i took a chance and healed a random tell looking for a cleric. Thought that i would be doing the server a favor.

There are no promises that a large guild has good people, nor that the guild that you see as an elite guild has any better players than any other guild.
In truth, I have had guilds that large(300 plus active) player bases, good to great leadership and alot of talented players simply couldnt put together a decent raid. Everyone knew the raids, and had done them before, but the too many chiefs not enuf indians thing cropped up every time i turned around.

Its players that make a raid run smooth, hell I can , if people follow instead of try to usurp lead get a hard shroud done with almost any party, but it takes planning, tactics, and the willingness to succeed from everyone in the party.

your using pots, well that is your choice, and some see it as weakness, I dont. I see it like this:
if we had # of spells per rest instead of spell points, we'd never finish a raid, but we DO have spell points, spme more than others, and they drive the main basic function of your character. as such you use potions to keep yourself healing/casting as needed. you can mitigate the use thru becoming proficient at managing the pool, thru scrolls and special abilities, and rarely wands, but the spell point potin is the easy button for almost everyone, so use em, and if you get lucky enough to be reimbursed, so be ti, if not, take names and dont run with em again.

players are still players whether a part of a guild that has a good rep or not makes no difference.

having the ability to listen is in my opinion more valuable than giving your advice.

learning to stop trying to heal stupid, well , thats where we seperate the novices from the pro's, learn how and when to deal with those situations, and always know what you are willing to spend resources wise when you go into any pug.

[Micron]

The Shroud really is a fascinating quest. 4+ years after its release it still easily generates half a dozen or so forum threads a week. 3 threads on Thelanis only over the last couple of days. Wowzers, hats off devs.

[Infant]

I feel you on pug healers taking lots of ****. Just tonight I jumped on a hard shroud pug. I was the 4th to join. Besides my cleric we had 2 arcanes, 2 fighters, 5 rangers and 1 arti and 1 bard. We then waited for 1 more healer outside the gate. This screams serious lack of HP, dots and DPS to me. After seeing who the leader accepted I told them I was not comfortable doing hard with this party, but I'd be willing to norm. I could also tell from voicechat that many of the players were new (they originally wanted to try elite with this party which I LOLed at inside) He didn't agree which is fine so I dropped. Half the group followed.

I then got several PMs from the group leader giving me **** about dropping. An hour or 2 later he sent me another tell explaining how he and the rest of the party that didn't leave ended up filling up and getting through hard. He just wanted to give me more **** I guess.

I hate people harassing me like this. I can drop group whenever I want to on a shroud run if we haven't started. If I don't feel the party has a good enough chance of getting through the run I'm dropping before it starts. I'm not going to go into a party I feel has a good chance of wiping. Just because I'm a divine doesn't mean I'm obligated to stay on your horribly constructed shroud party.

I will continue to pug heal though because most experiences are not like this.

ok

/end rant

Sorry, but you joined a hard Shroud LFM. In a PuG. That means you accepted it and are prepared for whatever may come. Trying to negotiate down to normal is ok, but then dropping group certainly isn't a nice move.

Also from your other post: Starting to negotiate for pots mid-part 4, before it's over, INSTEAD of concentrating on the battle, IS going to give you a bad name among many players. Asking for potcount as raid leader/offering pots in a tough run -- yes. Starting to ask for pots before the quest is over -- no.

Infant

[Vellrad]

Sorry, but you joined a hard Shroud LFM. In a PuG. That means you accepted it and are prepared for whatever may come. Trying to negotiate down to normal is ok, but then dropping group certainly isn't a nice move.

Also from your other post: Starting to negotiate for pots mid-part 4, before it's over, INSTEAD of concentrating on the battle, IS going to give you a bad name among many players. Asking for potcount as raid leader/offering pots in a tough run -- yes. Starting to ask for pots before the quest is over -- no.

Infant

Actually, if LFM was set at normal, and they wanted hard, it would be strange to not this fail wagon.
edit: fail on my part on reading, he said clearly it was hard.
Still, when someone joins LFM, he is not suddenly turned into a slave, and can leave any fail wagon he/she wishes to.

[axel15810]

Sorry, but you joined a hard Shroud LFM. In a PuG. That means you accepted it and are prepared for whatever may come. Trying to negotiate down to normal is ok, but then dropping group certainly isn't a nice move.

Also from your other post: Starting to negotiate for pots mid-part 4, before it's over, INSTEAD of concentrating on the battle, IS going to give you a bad name among many players. Asking for potcount as raid leader/offering pots in a tough run -- yes. Starting to ask for pots before the quest is over -- no.

Infant

I completely disagree. I dropped before the raid started, not during. I haven't accepted anything until I enter the quest and begin the raid. If the quest hasn't started I'm not obligated to do anything. I was 4th to join this pug. So you're saying if after I join the leader fills a hard shroud group up with 4 melees with 300 HP I'm obligated to go along and heal that nightmare? Give me a break, no.

And I can talk on voicechat and heal at the same time, it's not an issue. I have found that people aren't that generous and I want a guarantee before I start sucking down my precious resources. If early on I can tell DPS is seriously lacking all I do is say "Would anyone mind throwing some pots my way if I have to drink a few?" I usually get a quick yes and that's that. I've healed enough shrouds to know early on in the 4th round if I'll have to use a pot or 2. I don't see anything wrong with that. If I'm not upfront as a healer other players will not contribute their fair share to healing, that much I have learned.

[Infant]

I completely disagree. I dropped before the raid started, not during. I haven't accepted anything until I enter the quest and begin the raid. If the quest hasn't started I'm not obligated to do anything. I was 4th to join this pug. So you're saying if after I join the leader fills a hard shroud group up with 4 melees with 300 HP I'm obligated to go along and heal that nightmare? Give me a break, no.

Was probaly badly worded. Not obligated. But I probably wouldn't drop. I wouldn't drink pots either if it turns out (as expected) that the group isn't good enough for a hard Shroud.

And I can talk on voicechat and heal at the same time, it's not an issue. I have found that people aren't that generous and I want a guarantee before I start sucking down my precious resources. If early on I can tell DPS is seriously lacking all I do is say "Would anyone mind throwing some pots my way if I have to drink a few?" I usually get a quick yes and that's that. I've healed enough shrouds to know early on in the 4th round if I'll have to use a pot or 2. I don't see anything wrong with that. If I'm not upfront as a healer other players will not contribute their fair share to healing, that much I have learned.

Sorry, but I still strongly disagree here. Talk about pots after completion. Before, I decide myself if I want to waste pots on the group or not, depending on group/mood/etc. If someone starts talking pots while I'm in the fight on my non-healer character, this would be a bad signal for me.

Infant