All This Thankfulness Is Sad

[HAL]

The players climb all over the devs with vile comments when something breaks. Theres nothing wrong with being civil and saying thank you when it is fixed. If you do one, you do the other. The carrot and the stick work equally well, when used correctly. And no, just "being a customer" is not reason enough to be an ******.

With that in mind, there are alot of really STUPID bugs in this patch. Insert various vile comments here.

I read the forums and rarely see anything "vile". I do see people being angry and calling the devs to task for introducing another bug. And while maybe people could be more diplomatic, they are rarely outright rude. People are frustrated that it just keeps getting worse and worse.

[rimble]

I question your analogy - Turbine is providing a service, not a demolition crew.

If I send a plate back to the kitchen because something is wrong, I most certainly do thank the server when they bring it back correct. And I do it because I appreciate their service, not because I'm trying to coerce them into serving me better.

That's what the tip is for

How people treat waitstaff is often a good measure of what kind of person they are. I'd say something similar applies here to Devs/QA too.

That's not to say that I haven't *****ed or groaned about poor service from either, but I certainly don't attack them. Why would someone treat someone like that just for making a (non-critical, non-life-threatening) mistake at their job?

[dejafu]

I despise taking part in forums that consist of anything but cruelty and bitter recrimination.

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got to catch up on discussions about Mass Effect 3's ending.

[HAL]

Not that you don't have a point, but I'm curious about this part.

With the exception of third-party, hard engine limitations like the mouse cursor, what sort of issues haven't been created by the devs? That just seems like an odd sticking point to me.

My point in emphasizing that they made the issues themselves was to be clear that they aren't fixing issues that someone else created. That might be seen as something to be thankful for. Like for instance if someone hacked the servers and screwed up peoples' characters or something.

[HAL]

I hear what you're saying but what's the solution. ONLY use the forums to complain about what a bad job the devs did with xx or yy.... cuz NO matter what happens with every patch, update and hotfix I see at least a half dozen "Oh great you messed xx and yy up Turbine" and these FAR out number the one or two 'hey thanks for fixing aa and bb Turbine" posts... If we are to let the complainers complain so too must we let the appreciative, appreciate. I am a IT QA software tester, and I will admit I'm used to 1-2 praises per 10 complaints... but I like the occasional praise all the same.

Like most everything in life. DDO is not perfect, but as long as I can still find a way to have fun doing it. I'm gonna keep doing it. If the pain every TRULY exceeds the pleasure for an extended period of time. I can just do something else.. so far I'm still playing DDO.

I don't have a problem with praise - let's just give praise where it is due. Like when they introduce an especially entertaining new quest or if people really like the new Panther hireling. All I'm saying is let's not praise them for correcting their own mistakes.

[danotmano1998]

All I'm saying is let's not praise them for correcting their own mistakes.

So you're asking folks not to speak their minds and express gratitude when they think it is due?

What on earth for? Just because it annoys you?

[varusso]

Around here the carrot is used to attract so that the stick can be used to beat to death.

which of course explains the stench of dead horses lingering on the main page

[Ew_vastano]

let me just say what bugs me about ddo more then anything else :-


example 1, we are in lob all dead and the dot brings last piller down but the quest doesnt open up the barrier to get to the shrine send ticket in turbine gm responce " sorry there is nothing we can do re run the quest". ticket closed


example 2, Evon 1 deadheart teleports inside a wall send ticket responce " sorry this is an unknown bug plz send a bug report" ticket closed
and I could go on all day with the total c%$p gm responces in ddo.

Now i was on nar shaddaa yesterday (SWTOR fior those dont know) and a quest bugged, within 5 mins had a gm rsponce telling me to try 4 or 5 different things.

when they didnt work he then had me retry that perticular section of quest and when it didnt advance guess what the gm ADVANCED it with apolgies that it hadnt worked properly and they would now fix it.

What a difference from game developers that acualy Apreciate their players hence i am playing SWTOR not DDO

ps and theres no lag

[varusso]

You are surely overstating here. First off, vile comments toward anyone, let alone the developers, would not be tolerated in this forum. Second point, what do you mean by "The players"? This is a pretty broad generalization. Do you mean everyone but yourself? This is nonsense.

I have notice but a couple people really venting lately. Of these, the majority seem to be toward a "Yellow Tag", who put himself in the cross fire and all but asked to be the focus of their rage (I actually admire this fellow. That took balls and probably reduced the overall rage against turbine). Much more nastiness was directed toward the few people venting than has been toward the developers.

I read the forums and rarely see anything "vile". I do see people being angry and calling the devs to task for introducing another bug. And while maybe people could be more diplomatic, they are rarely outright rude. People are frustrated that it just keeps getting worse and worse.

Dont try to put up a straw man argument in my name that i didnt use. You know exactly what I meant. Nitpicking over semantics doesnt change it.

[Nyxianne]

let me just say what bugs me about ddo more then anything else :-


example 1, we are in lob all dead and the dot brings last piller down but the quest doesnt open up the barrier to get to the shrine send ticket in turbine gm responce " sorry there is nothing we can do re run the quest". ticket closed


example 2, Evon 1 deadheart teleports inside a wall send ticket responce " sorry this is an unknown bug plz send a bug report" ticket closed
and I could go on all day with the total c%$p gm responces in ddo.

Now i was on nar shaddaa yesterday (SWTOR fior those dont know) and a quest bugged, within 5 mins had a gm rsponce telling me to try 4 or 5 different things.

when they didnt work he then had me retry that perticular section of quest and when it didnt advance guess what the gm ADVANCED it with apolgies that it hadnt worked properly and they would now fix it.

What a difference from game developers that acualy Apreciate their players hence i am playing SWTOR not DDO

ps and theres no lag

I hate to say this but, I actually do usually get dev responses to my bug reports within 5-10 minutes. I guess I'm lucky! And yeah, when the quest bugs the gm now has been resetting back to something that wasn't bugged - but to be fair the old way did used to be "sorry, known issue, thanks for the bug report but there's nothing we can do".

[Cyr]

So you're asking folks not to speak their minds and express gratitude when they think it is due?

What on earth for? Just because it annoys you?

I think everyone should feel free to express their opinions no matter what form they take. I also think that it is others right to note inconsistencies that people may not have considered when forming their initial opinions.

For example, fixing a bug that you created years later seems like a foolish thing to be heaping praise on a developer on when it is likely that another developer put out a product with bugs that were fixed promptly or didn't really have bugs to begin with.

Shouldn't the developer who did a better job faster be the one being praised and not the one who finally got around to fixing the mistake they made?

I would like to thank those DDO developers who put out consistently low bug count product and who make a strong effort to fix what bugs to get out to live in a prompt fashion. You know who you are even if the general forum goers do not.

[Vint]

The players climb all over the devs with vile comments when something breaks. Theres nothing wrong with being civil and saying thank you when it is fixed. If you do one, you do the other. The carrot and the stick work equally well, when used correctly. And no, just "being a customer" is not reason enough to be an ******.

With that in mind, there are alot of really STUPID bugs in this patch. Insert various vile comments here.

So if you take your car to the shop, they screw something up while it is there, would you not get upset if your mechanic tells you he will fix it when it suits him?

I cant argue with Fanboi's though. Keep fighting all the battles for Turbine.

[Thrudh]

So if you take your car to the shop, they screw something up while it is there, would you not get upset if your mechanic tells you he will fix it when it suits him?

More like the dealer offers you four new tires for $10, but breaks one of your AM radio preset buttons during the install, and says they'll won't be able to fix it for a month because they are too busy giving away high-discount tires.

I'd still be net happy.

[Thrudh]

I cant argue with Fanboi's though.

You have to admit though, we're a happy bunch.

People who always see the glass half-full live longer happier lives than you guys who always focus on what's broken.

[danotmano1998]

For example, fixing a bug that you created years later seems like a foolish thing to be heaping praise on a developer on when it is likely that another developer put out a product with bugs that were fixed promptly or didn't really have bugs to begin with.

Agreed. Even bigger thanks to all the people that didn't screw up, whoever you are.

I would venture to say "heaping praise" might be a bit of an overstatement though.
More like a "Thank You for your efforts". At least, that's what I've been seeing so far.

[varusso]

So if you take your car to the shop, they screw something up while it is there, would you not get upset if your mechanic tells you he will fix it when it suits him?

I cant argue with Fanboi's though. Keep fighting all the battles for Turbine.

Get a clue. seriously. I have been around and around with turbine over more issues than you can count, since the launch of Asheron's Call. I am not a "fanboi" of turbine. But neither do I see the point in being a rude jerk about something when it WONT change the outcome, other than to unnecessarily tick off the person you are ranting at.

Turbine has never said they would "fix something when it suits them". They have a laundry list of things that MUST get done RIGHT NOW. Since obviously it cant happen, they have to prioritize. The downside to producing an continually updating MMO is that the game itself is constantly in a state of flux. Just when you finally get time slotted to fix something, a new project comes up (be in new content or another, more critical bug fix), and the one you have been trying to squash forever gets pushed back yet again. This is a simple FACT of the industry. If an MMO exists without these problems, it is an MMO that never updates.

Now the CORRECT scenario you should have proffered was taking the car to my mechanic, and he tells me it will be a few days, because he is booked with other appointments. Perhaps an emergency comes up when my car is due for repairs, and it gets pushed back. Would I be upset? Of course. Would I throw a temper tantrum over it? Of coursed not. Depending on the length of delay, I might expect some form of remuneration (and on occasion Turbine has done this i their games -- the silly backpack pets in AC is a great example). If I am dissatisfied enough with the service I receive, I always have the option to take my car somewhere else -- something neither I nor the mechanic really wants. Once the car finally gets fixed (by him), however, he would apologize and I would thank him, regardless of what transpired along the way. Simple civility.

Oh and for the record, I have been the player, the game designer, AND the customer service rep that sits between the two on multiple occasions.

[Vint]

You have to admit though, we're a happy bunch.

People who always see the glass half-full live longer happier lives than you guys who always focus on what's broken.

With out a doubt. This gives us something to do while at work at least.

[Chai]

I think everyone should feel free to express their opinions no matter what form they take. I also think that it is others right to note inconsistencies that people may not have considered when forming their initial opinions.

Like below for example.

For example, fixing a bug that you created years later seems like a foolish thing to be heaping praise on a developer on when it is likely that another developer put out a product with bugs that were fixed promptly or didn't really have bugs to begin with.

Shouldn't the developer who did a better job faster be the one being praised and not the one who finally got around to fixing the mistake they made?

Inconsistency #1: In DDO bugs that are years old were likely created by other devs that no longer work for the company. Now this newer dev comes in and fixes this ages old bug. I dont feel that thanking them for that is necessarily a bad thing.

Inconsistency #2: Are the devs the ones who prioritize what gets fixed and what doesnt. Every software company I have ever worked for has some sort of known issue database where the project managers (not the devs) assign priorities for what needs to be fixed sooner. Thats why the MA raid is down but will likely be back up long before we stop getting stuck on ladders. Its not because every dev in the company just said "screw it, we're never fixing ladders, evAr muahahahahaha!!!" Now everyone put on their tinfoil hats and turn to page 4 in the Broken Ladder Conspiracy Manual....

would like to thank those DDO developers who put out consistently low bug count product and who make a strong effort to fix what bugs to get out to live in a prompt fashion. You know who you are even if the general forum goers do not.

Youre actually thanking project managers who told the devs to fix the same bugs that affect you the most, first.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

Well I will say this. Devs and QA catch all kinds of junk. It is the most Thankless job going. Every one thinks it is just so simple. Wrong it takes many hours to make what seem like a min in the game. So yes I say good job when I think it is needed. I have been on both ends Dev and QA.. Devs get rode hard by QA when some thing gets Broken. Devs and QA get rode hard by people with the thinking I can do that. They must be Dumb..
Just my take and Rant..

Sleeps

I agree to that. I've been personally done a little bit of playtesting for Divinity 2 and it's expansion, and "playtesting" just does require ONE thing . Not at all to be consumed by the repetitiveness of the job !

People need o look out. They must be sensitive, because some errors are not at all ( !9 misible at first glance !

Programming errors usually don't come just with a bright & yellow sign holding in their hands, saying : "Hello there, I'm an programming error !"

It's not that easy.

Plus, I have learned programming myself. It's only that I'm out of the business for 10 years now. But things once learned stick.

So I can say that programming mistakes can be difficult to get. When learning programming, I once took a poject home. From an Windows NT machine (on which I had learned) with its so much better memory protection system home to my Windows 98SE system.

The crash due to a not correctly placed pointer (C++) was so bad that i had to go to an earlier "system point" back. And keep in mind that regular system points didn't exist back then !

I was reverted to a system's state that was at least half a year old, if not even one ear or so (it's so long ago, I don't remember it anymore in detail).

A single not correctly placed pointer ! To an adress in memory !

If I remember correctly, it wasn't closed when the object was destroyed. With the memory slowly filling, and after that the swap file. But it's so long ago tht i don't remember things anymore.

The constructs can become SO much complex as if ... you try to find out why a car isn't starting anymore, and you find out that it's a tiny crack in the hull of an electronics cable into what water could go, thus causing a short circuit.

I've been watching a friend looking for reasons why the family's car cannot start. There's so mny reasons you'd be amazed. And a car is a relatively simple object !

[Vint]

Get a clue. seriously. I have been around and around with turbine over more issues than you can count, since the launch of Asheron's Call. I am not a "fanboi" of turbine. But neither do I see the point in being a rude jerk about something when it WONT change the outcome, other than to unnecessarily tick off the person you are ranting at.

Turbine has never said they would "fix something when it suits them". They have a laundry list of things that MUST get done RIGHT NOW. Since obviously it cant happen, they have to prioritize. The downside to producing an continually updating MMO is that the game itself is constantly in a state of flux. Just when you finally get time slotted to fix something, a new project comes up (be in new content or another, more critical bug fix), and the one you have been trying to squash forever gets pushed back yet again. This is a simple FACT of the industry. If an MMO exists without these problems, it is an MMO that never updates.

Now the CORRECT scenario you should have proffered was taking the car to my mechanic, and he tells me it will be a few days, because he is booked with other appointments. Perhaps an emergency comes up when my car is due for repairs, and it gets pushed back. Would I be upset? Of course. Would I throw a temper tantrum over it? Of coursed not. Depending on the length of delay, I might expect some form of remuneration (and on occasion Turbine has done this i their games -- the silly backpack pets in AC is a great example). If I am dissatisfied enough with the service I receive, I always have the option to take my car somewhere else -- something neither I nor the mechanic really wants. Once the car finally gets fixed (by him), however, he would apologize and I would thank him, regardless of what transpired along the way. Simple civility.

Oh and for the record, I have been the player, the game designer, AND the customer service rep that sits between the two on multiple occasions.

In red is the problem. IMHO they have to meet deadlines to rush out a product. I on multiple occasions have said wait 2-3 weeks before you release something to make sure it is a decent update. And every update we get more bugs than ever. People have become so use to the incompetence and shoddy updates that they release and it is just expected to get updates that are junk. I agree with you that I am not wetting myself over this incident, but can they get 1 update straight?

They need the next 12 weeks to get the update ready? Really? They can do it in 2 days and then in the release notes they can once again add that they did not get it right. Wont matter. Most people are used to updates that take 4 patches and 3 hotfixes to get right?

I admit I am in favor of a lot of things Turbine has done lately and have started playing a lot more. However I don’t have time to hear what their priorities are. It all comes to the money. If for some reason one of the companions in the store was bugged and people were not buying them until they were fixed they would shut down the state of Mass. until it was fixed. They are not making money off the bags (or they did this on purpose so people would buy them from the store {conveniently on sale this week}).

The priorities you speak of have nothing to do with putting out good tested (or fixed when they are told it is broken on lama) product. It is about giving us problems that they feel no need to fix unless they can make cash off of it.