Cleric's Guide to the Turn Undead

[guardianx2009]

Updated 03/01/13 to reflect U14 changes

Why this Guide?
Because the formula for turning undead is somewhat complicated and there's a lot of misunderstanding about turn undead and how it works. So the purpose of this guide is explain exactly how Turn Undead works and hopefully clear up some misunderstandings.

Who cares, Radiant Burst FTW!
Radiant Bursts work really well in non-epic, but starts to fall short in Epic when Mobs have thousands of HP.

Bursts are also subject to spell penetration, mobs that have SR can nullify your burst.

Turns do have it's uses in the right situations. Turns have the following advantages:
1. It is low HD seeking - Turn Undead seeks out and kills the lowest HD mob first. Which usually happens to be the most dangerous type (casters).
2. It has a wider range - When mobs are scattered, turn undead can reach mobs that Burst cannot.
3. It has vertical range - You can turn mobs even when they are on a different plane such as hard/unreachable cliffs, top of stairs, etc.
4. Short cooldown - You can spam Turns faster than you can spam radiant bursts.
5. No Spell Penetration/Save checks - Turns use a unique system to that bypasses spell penetration/save checks. If your turns are strong enough, you can no fail turn any undead (non-boss, of course).
6. It works through walls - Nuff said.
7. Against undeads that have deathward, a Paladin's turn undead becomes an effective CC as it will stun them.

But it takes to much effort to acquire all those gears for turning!
Gears that affect turning grant bonuses in the following 3 categories:
1. Effective Turn Level - This is most important bonus. it improves both Turning Check Roll and Turning Damage Roll (see below)
2. MaxHD - Second most useful bonus. It affects the Turning Check Roll only (the all important first roll)
3. TotalHD - Least useful bonus. It is only applied to Turning Damage.

List of items and their bonuses:

               
                      Turn Level     MaxHD      TotalHD
Hallowed                 +0           +2          +0
Eternal Faith            +2           +2          +4
Sacred                   +2           +0          +0
Silver Flame             +0           +0          +6
TOD Radiant Servant Set  +3 Exceptional (stacking)

Items that grant the bonus in the same category do not stack.

To maximize gear for turning:
For low level:
Sacred: grants +2 bonus (for low level until you get eternal faith)
Silver Flame: grants +6 totalHD bonus, useful at low levels where mob HD is still low.

Higher Level
Eternal Faith: grants +4 bonus (+2 effective level and +2 maxhd).
TOD Radiant Servant Ring: grants +3 exceptional bonus

All other turning gear (hallowed, silverflame at high level) are mostly useless.

Ok then, how exactly does turning work?
Turning Undead consists of the following checks:
1. Turning Check - To determine the Hit Dice of the most powerful mob you can affect.
2. Turning Damage - To determine the number of undead you can affect.


The most important factor in making turns effective the first roll: the Turning Check. Turning Check is made to determine your effective Cleric Turn Level. If your effective Cleric Turn Level cannot beat the HD of the mob, then your turn is useless against it.


TURNING CHECK BREAKDOWN

Formula:
EFFECTIVE 
TURN LEVEL =  CLERIC LEVEL + EFFECTIVE LEVEL BONUS + MAXHD BONUS + BONUS MODIFIER (D20 roll)

LEVEL 20 CLERIC:                      +20
EFFECTIVE LEVEL BONUS
  Items:         (Eternal Faith)       +2
  Spells:        (Seek Eternal Rest)   +4
  Action Points: (Improved Turning)    +1 (max +3)
  Feats:         (Past Life: Cleric)   +0 (max +6)
                 (*Improved Turning)   +0 (max +1) 
  Exceptional:   (Radiant Servant Set) +3
  ====================================================
  EFFECTIVE LEVEL BONUS               +10 (max +19)

MAXHD BONUS**    (Eternal Faith)       +2
===================================================
TOTAL BEFORE D20 ROLL                  32 (max 41)

  *You typically would not burn a feat on Improved Turning
  Cleric Past Lifes are a boon and helps significantly 
  if you can acquire them.

  **MAXHD is a special bonus found on Eternal Faith item that 
    grants bonus to Turning Check roll, but not Turning Damage roll.

BONUS MODIFIER
  D20 Roll +      Bonus
  *CHA Modifier   Modifier
  0 	            -4
  1-3 	            -3
  4-6 	            -2                  
  7-9 	            -1
  10-12             +0
  13-15             +1
  16-18             +2
  19-21             +3
  22+               +4 

  *The higher your charisma bonus, the less variance and more 
  predictable your turn ability becomes.  For example if you 
  have +9 CHA modifier, you can't roll less than 10. You will 
  always gain bonus of +0 to +4.

TURNING DAMAGE BREAKDOWN

Formula:
TOTAL # HD TURNED = 2D6 + CLERIC LEVEL + EFFECTIVE LEVEL BONUS + TOTALHD BONUS + CHA MODIFIER

LEVEL 20 CLERIC:                      +20
EFFECTIVE LEVEL BONUS
  Items:         (Eternal Faith)       +2
  Spells:        (Seek Eternal Rest)   +4
  Action Points: (Improved Turning)    +1 (max +3)
  Feats:         (Past Life: Cleric)   +0 (max +6)
                 (Improved Turning)    +0 (max +1) 
  Exceptional:   (Radiant Servant Set) +3
  ====================================================
  EFFECTIVE LEVEL BONUS               +10 (max +19)

TOTALHD BONUS:   (Eternal Faith)       +4
CHA MODIFIER:    (28 Charisma)         +9
===========================================
TOTAL:                                 +43 (max +52)
+2D6 ROLL:                              45-55 (max 54-64)


Item Modifiers: 
  Hallowed: +2 totalHD
  **Eternal Faith: +6 total (+4 totalHD, +2 Clr Level)
  **Silver Flame: +6 totalHD

*Turning Damage really only matters in non-epics.  Epic mob HD are so high 
that, unless you have extremely high Charisma (40+), it is practically 
impossible to turn more than one at a time. 

** Note that you can stack Eternal Faith and Silver Flame for a total of +8 bonus from items (+6 totalHD, +2 clr 

level).

What is Turn Resistance?
Turn Resistance is a mechanic that just artificially inflates a mob's HD for the purposes of turning. So if you see a mob with CR7 and your turning roll is 7HD or less - yet the mob doesn't die. Then the mob has either some form of turning resistance or their HD is higher than their CR.

Detailed Explanation:

It may be worth noting that most undead in quests made past Module 7.1 (from when monks were made) have a Hit Dice equal to their Challenge Rating, including monsters where this defies the normal tendency (such as zombies and skeletons). Also, a large amount of the undead that have Turn Resistance on Normal sometimes lack it on Hard or Elite Difficulties (Korthos quests are pretty infamous on this with the ghouls).

Turn Resistance is an ability undead possess that helps protect them against Turn Undead. It effectively raises their Hit Dice for the purpose of resisting Turn Undead (the check to see if you hit the undead with Turn Undead), but does not grant any other bonuses that more Hit Dice would yield (such as higher saves, or consuming more Turn Damage from Turn Undead).

Turn Resistance typically is found on sentient undead such as wights, ghouls, mummies, vampires, liches, quells, wheeps, and so forth.

However, due to how DDO handles monster data in the more recent years, there are bugs that crop up. One such bug is that undead that are templated for use on Normal Difficulty sometimes lack their innate Turn Resistance on Hard or Elite difficulty.

Quests made prior to Module 7.1 such as Xorian Cipher, have a Hit Dice to Challenge Rating Ratio of about 1.5 HD per 1 CR. Newer skeletons, such as the ones found in Spies in the House, have a 1 HD per 1 CR ratio, and are much easier to turn due to that.

How effective is turn undead in Epic Content (EN/EH/EE)?
Effectiveness of turns are based on CR. The following is a list of CR's of undeads found in various epic

quests:

Undead CR in Epic Content
                    
       Black      VoN5       Lord of      Unquiet   Madstone
       Loch                  Dust         Graves    Crater
EN      22         20        23           17-24     24
EH      30         28        32           20-28     28
EE      45         43        48           31-43     54(!)

From the above, we can conclude:
- Epic Normal, turn is very effective.
- Epic Hard turn is effective.
- Epic Elite is (almost) useless.

On average this is how many undeads you can kill in a single turn:
- Epic Normal: 2 - 3
- Epic Hard: 1 - 2
- Epic Elite: 0.. 1 if against the weakest undead (slain villagers), 1 IF you invested heavily (see below)

What is the maximum turn level a cleric can reach?
Current possible maximum HD a cleric can turn is 45. So it is theoretically possible to turn undead in certain EE's. To reach 45, the following is required:

LEVEL 20 CLERIC:                      +20
  Items:         (Eternal Faith)       +4
  Spells:        (Seek Eternal Rest)   +4
  Action Points: (Improved Turning 3)  +3 
  Feats:         (3 Past Life: Cleric) +6
                 (Improved Turning)    +1 
  Exceptional:   (Radiant Servant Set) +3
  ====================================================
                                      +41
  +4 Bonus on D20 Roll                 +4
  ====================================================
                                      +45

Even if you can reach the magic 45 HD number, you need very high CHA bonus (+22!!) to ensure you roll a +4 bonus each attempt.

How do I get more turns?
The main sources of turns are:

 Base                - 3
  +Charisma Modifier - 28 charisma (+9)
  +*Items            - Lesser Turning item (+2)
                       Alchemist Pendant (+1)
                       TOD Ring set: Radiant Servant (+1) 
                                     Warpriest (+2) 
                                     Silver Flame (+3)
  +AP               - Extra Turning Enhancements (Max +4)
  +Feat             - Extra Turning Feat (+4)
                      Past Life: Cleric (+1, max+3)
  +ED Enhancements  - Endless Turning ability for Unyielding Sentinel
 *Items that grant additional turns do not stack with each other.

Would having paladin levels add or hinder for turning purposes?
The short answer is it would hinder:

From testing I did awhile back, cleric and paladin turn levels do appear to stack. However this would be irrelevant either way, if you only splash 2 levels.

Paladins only begin to gain turn levels at level 4.

You would have 2 turning levels less than a pure build.

Additional details regarding turn undead can be found here:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Turn_Undead

[erikbozelie]

Great guide. was thinking of typing this down myself one day, but you beated me to it.
turning rules. a real *** effect on groups when you start turning stuff into dust by spamming 30 turns in epic wiz king.

can currently turn up to CR37 monsters, still missing 1(easy obtainable for me) to be able to hit epic death knights.
am waiting for the new content to see the new epic content before LR into a 18 cleric build instead of 17(only single cleric past life).

i do think the radiant tod set is bugged, gives more like +4 to turn checks instead of +1.
the level increase this summer should make turning undead way more easier.

one biggest advantage of turning is that it works through walls. shadow crypt mazes can be whiped from any position

[daniel7]

Thanks for the guide!

[guardianx2009]

Great guide. was thinking of typing this down myself one day, but you beated me to it.
turning rules. a real *** effect on groups when you start turning stuff into dust by spamming 30 turns in epic wiz king.

can currently turn up to CR37 monsters, still missing 1(easy obtainable for me) to be able to hit epic death knights.
am waiting for the new content to see the new epic content before LR into a 18 cleric build instead of 17(only single cleric past life).

i do think the radiant tod set is bugged, gives more like +4 to turn checks instead of +1.
the level increase this summer should make turning undead way more easier.

one biggest advantage of turning is that it works through walls. shadow crypt mazes can be whiped from any position

I can currently turn epic death knights (CR38) on a roll of 9 or higher. If I tr, I'd be able to turn those death knights on a roll of 3.

I'm still working on getting the TOD rings. If it's true that it gives +4 stacking turn level, it would mean that ring is pretty powerful for turning. You can confirm this by testing your turns and looking at your combat log. Do turns with the TOD set on, then do turns without. Compare the differences in the log where you roll the same number for both cases.

Thanks for the tip on working through walls. I'll add that to the list of advantages.

[MrCow]

It may be worth noting that most undead in quests made past Module 7.1 (from when monks were made) have a Hit Dice equal to their Challenge Rating, including monsters where this defies the normal tendency (such as zombies and skeletons). Also, a large amount of the undead that have Turn Resistance on Normal sometimes lack it on Hard or Elite Difficulties (Korthos quests are pretty infamous on this with the ghouls).

[erikbozelie]

It may be worth noting that most undead in quests made past Module 7.1 (from when monks were made) have a Hit Dice equal to their Challenge Rating, including monsters where this defies the normal tendency (such as zombies and skeletons). Also, a large amount of the undead that have Turn Resistance on Normal sometimes lack it on Hard or Elite Difficulties (Korthos quests are pretty infamous on this with the ghouls).

ghouls "feel" as low hd, same as mumies which where the first enemies in ewiz king i could turn.

right now my toon is a 17 cleric, 2 soc, 1 fvs healbot made for healing lob(higher diff).
with 42 charisma, and 38 wisdom, hes at 2844sp, 30 turns.

so my turn breakthrough:
combat log says 37 turning max.

17 levels of cleric
2 past live(only got 1 / other one is soc)
3 enhancements
4 spell
4 eternal faith
4 charisma(lets asume a good roll)

34 total, with the tod set on i have 37.

[guardianx2009]

ghouls "feel" as low hd, same as mumies which where the first enemies in ewiz king i could turn.

right now my toon is a 17 cleric, 2 soc, 1 fvs healbot made for healing lob(higher diff).
with 42 charisma, and 38 wisdom, hes at 2844sp, 30 turns.

so my turn breakthrough:
combat log says 37 turning max.

17 levels of cleric
2 past live(only got 1 / other one is soc)
3 enhancements
4 spell
4 eternal faith
4 charisma(lets asume a good roll)

34 total, with the tod set on i have 37.

That's a +3 bonus, not a +4.. With the tod ring off, what's the combat log show for max? If you are correct, then it should show 34.

It's interesting to note that the Radiant Ring description says it "grants an exception bonus to effective cleric level" it doesn't explicitly say it grants 1 bonus cleric level.

[erikbozelie]

belt raised my turns from 33/34 to 36/37.
guess its a +3

might wanna add lesser turning to the gear list. (+2 turn attempts)

so if i may edit your post:

With a modest (6) AP investment in improved turning, eternal faith, and radiant tod set:
- A cleric with 0 past lives can turn up to 38HD undead. With 28 CHA (+9), can no fail turn 34 HD mobs.
- A cleric with 1 past live can turn up to 40HD undead. With 28 CHA (+9), can no fail turn 36 or lesser HD mobs.
- A cleric with 2 past lives can turn up to 42HD undead. With 28 CHA (+9), can no fail turn 38 or lesser HD mobs.
- A cleric with 3 past lives can turn up to 44HD undead. With 28 CHA (+9), can no fail turn 40 or lesser HD mobs.

[TheDjinnFor]

With a modest (6) AP investment in improved turning:
- A cleric with 0 past lives can turn up to 35HD undead. With 28 CHA (+9), can no fail turn 31 HD mobs.
- A cleric with 1 past live can turn up to 37HD undead. With 28 CHA (+9), can no fail turn 33 or lesser HD mobs.
- A cleric with 2 past lives can turn up to 39HD undead. With 28 CHA (+9), can no fail turn 35 or lesser HD mobs.
- A cleric with 3 past lives can turn up to 41HD undead. With 28 CHA (+9), can no fail turn 37 or lesser HD mobs.

I'm pretty sure that (correct me if I'm wrong) you still need to roll a number equal to their HD for the turn damage. You would also therefore need to spend an item slot for the +2-6 turn damage in order to "no-fail" turn.

Following your formula:

2d6 + ECL + Cha + Item
cleric level = 20, Cha = 28 (+9), no item

29 + 2d6, or 31-41; no longer a no-fail. You'd need at least a +4 item to boost it to minimum 35, and a +6 item would be even better (and it's found on just one shield in the game afaik), to hit those "epic CR 38 Death Knights" you were talking about.

My biggest problem is this: that 6 AP in improved turning (more like 5 given the fact that you need to invest 1 rank in for the PrE anyways) is effectively wasted in any quest without undead, and even when there's an undead in the quest you aren't really killing many of them to be of note. And there are so few epic quests with undead that I just can't see the practicality of this. It's a small investment, sure, but it's for a very small return.

[guardianx2009]

I'm pretty sure that (correct me if I'm wrong) you still need to roll a number equal to their HD for the turn damage. You would also therefore need to spend an item slot for the +2-6 turn damage in order to "no-fail" turn.

Following your formula:

2d6 + ECL + Cha + Item
cleric level = 20, Cha = 28 (+9), no item

29 + 2d6, or 31-41; no longer a no-fail. You'd need at least a +4 item to boost it to minimum 35, and a +6 item would be even better (and it's found on just one shield in the game afaik), to hit those "epic CR 38 Death Knights" you were talking about.

My biggest problem is this: that 6 AP in improved turning (more like 5 given the fact that you need to invest 1 rank in for the PrE anyways) is effectively wasted in any quest without undead, and even when there's an undead in the quest you aren't really killing many of them to be of note. And there are so few epic quests with undead that I just can't see the practicality of this. It's a small investment, sure, but it's for a very small return.

I did some in game testing on Turning Damage. The formula is a little more complicated:

Turning Damage = 2D6 + Effective Turn Level + Charisma + item

Effective Turn Level
  Cleric Level        20
  AP                   3
  Past Life x2         4
  Seek Etnl Rest       4
  Eternal Faith        0 (+4 overridden by totalHD bonus below)
  ======================
                      31

Charisma 
  Charisma Bonus       9

Item 
  Eternal Faith        6
========================

 Base Turning Damage  46
 Roll (2D6)           47 - 58

As you can see, Turning Damage is almost always be greater than your turning check roll.

It is interesting that Eternal Faith grants +6 to totalHD. It appears the +2 to maximum hitdice applies to both cleric level and totalHD. This makes Hallowed/Silverflame items even more useless. I will update the OP with this new data.


Regarding the AP spent, it's a modest investment for a very powerful ability. Now that the TOD ring set is +3 bonus, you may even forego the AP spent. I wouldn't say the ability solo scroll farm eWiz, eLoch, instant kill CR38 mobs a very small return. Will spending 5 AP in other areas going to make noticeable difference in other quests? I certainly don't, but the difference when you run quest with undead is enormous.

Ultimately it is up to your personal preference. The goal of this guide is shed light on Turn Undead and it's capability.

[Vazok1]

ghouls "feel" as low hd, same as mumies which where the first enemies in ewiz king i could turn.

right now my toon is a 17 cleric, 2 soc, 1 fvs healbot made for healing lob(higher diff).
with 42 charisma, and 38 wisdom, hes at 2844sp, 30 turns.

so my turn breakthrough:
combat log says 37 turning max.

17 levels of cleric
2 past live(only got 1 / other one is soc)
3 enhancements
4 spell
4 eternal faith
4 charisma(lets asume a good roll)

34 total, with the tod set on i have 37.

how are you getting 30 turns, im missing something on how you get there and it intrigues me

and how your getting 2844sp as well i guess but its the turns that bother me lol

[guardianx2009]

It may be worth noting that most undead in quests made past Module 7.1 (from when monks were made) have a Hit Dice equal to their Challenge Rating, including monsters where this defies the normal tendency (such as zombies and skeletons). Also, a large amount of the undead that have Turn Resistance on Normal sometimes lack it on Hard or Elite Difficulties (Korthos quests are pretty infamous on this with the ghouls).

MrCow, can you elaborate on this Turn Resistance mechanic? I have yet to notice it. Is it something that shows up in the combat log?

In certain quests, particularly Xorian Cipher... I noticed on hard/elite the mob HD is significantly higher than their CR.

[MrCow]

MrCow, can you elaborate on this Turn Resistance mechanic?

Turn Resistance is an ability undead possess that helps protect them against Turn Undead. It effectively raises their Hit Dice for the purpose of resisting Turn Undead (the check to see if you hit the undead with Turn Undead), but does not grant any other bonuses that more Hit Dice would yield (such as higher saves, or consuming more Turn Damage from Turn Undead).

Turn Resistance typically is found on sentient undead such as wights, ghouls, mummies, vampires, liches, quells, wheeps, and so forth.

However, due to how DDO handles monster data in the more recent years, there are bugs that crop up. One such bug is that undead that are templated for use on Normal Difficulty sometimes lack their innate Turn Resistance on Hard or Elite difficulty.

In certain quests, particularly Xorian Cipher... I noticed on hard/elite the mob HD is significantly higher than their CR.

Those skeletons have a Hit Dice to Challenge Rating Ratio of about 1.5 HD per 1 CR, as that quest was made prior to Module 7.1. Newer skeletons, such as the ones found in Spies in the House, have a 1 HD per 1 CR ratio, and are much easier to turn due to that.

[erikbozelie]

how are you getting 30 turns, im missing something on how you get there and it intrigues me

and how your getting 2844sp as well i guess but its the turns that bother me lol

not logged in atm, but from the back of my memory:

30 turns: 16 charisma + 2 lesser turning + 4 extra turning extra turning enhancement +4 extra turning feat +3 base +1 past life
2844sp: 840 cleric +150 soc +100fvs + 336 charisma + 364 wisdom + 80 magical training +315 mental toughness(soc past life feat) + 20 past life + 230 archmagi + 57 CC trinket + 172 spell power +110 zeleot +69 medium guild augment slot

its well possible to get clerics sp over 3k this way, i just prefer more turns over sp.

as for OP.
i found that the mummy's on epic are the easiest to turn. no turn resistance there.
what turning in the game really lacks are the usefulness in the endgame.
still hoping that the new content will give us a EDA like quest with waves of (epic) undead. quest:kill 200 death knights.

where turning really shines is leveling. having the ability to farm necro1/2/3/4, catacombs, delera's chains with no resistance.
keep running forward pressing a button. undead die!

shadow crypt / bloody crypt where my favorite, where i could wipe rooms with this ability, mazes from any position. only ones i couldn't do where spiders, but i brought a party along to kill those ;p.

to give you some idea, it "feels" like using wail of the banshee, without saves or spell resistance, from level1 and up. but only works on undead

[TheDjinnFor]

not logged in atm, but from the back of my memory:

30 turns: 16 charisma + 2 lesser turning + 4 extra turning extra turning enhancement +4 extra turning feat +3 base +1 past life

2844sp: 840 cleric +150 soc +100fvs + 336 charisma + 364 wisdom + 80 magical training +315 mental toughness(soc past life feat) + 20 past life + 230 archmagi + 57 CC trinket + 172 spell power +110 zeleot +69 medium guild augment slot

3 feats in mental toughness and 1 in turning? I assume the remaining three are empower heal, maximize, and quicken? Really setting yourself up to be a one-trick pony there, but I guess if all you do is heal eLoB then to each his own.

where turning really shines is leveling. having the ability to farm necro1/2/3/4, catacombs, delera's chains with no resistance.
keep running forward pressing a button. undead die!

Positive energy burst does the same until elite wiz king. Then undeath to death does the same thing until gianthold. Then blade barrier and implosion.

[erikbozelie]

Really setting yourself up to be a one-trick pony there, but I guess if all you do is heal eLoB then to each his own.

hes set as a healbot for it. nothing special, i was surprised my turning worked out so well in epic.
dont judge the usefullness of this toon, hes only an alt. my other character battle cleric has "all the pony tricks". didnt wanted to make something worth comparing the 2 characters for.

made the toon because of 2 reasons, one being compared to fvs sp pool too many times.
the other having failing healers in lob.

this is kindof going off topic, turning rules, just wish turbine would put turning to more uses(as in more undead to turn, i dont mean not being burst / divine might / divine vitality).

[erikbozelie]

what would really help turning is adding the domains that allowed clerics to turn more then just undead. like elementals.

[bhgiant]

sub and +1. Very informative.

[SirValentine]

Turning Damage really only matters in non-epics. Epic mob HD are so high that, unless you have extremely high Charisma (40+), it is practically impossible to turn more than one at a time.

So, for 1 turn + 1 spell cast, I can either:

A) Kill ONE undead via Turn Undead, and heal my comrades with Mass Heal

or

B) Kill FIVE undead via Implosion, and heal my comrades with a Positive Energy Burst.

Is that the gist of it? :-) Think I'll keep avoiding putting anything into Turn Undead.

[morticianjohn]

Were mobs in epic wiz king immune to turning back when epic ward was in place, before insta kills in epics?