Am I in the wrong?

[MartinusWyllt]

Yep, when you accept people into your party, unless told otherwise, there are no rules. With quick quests like the ones you are talking about, most wouldn't care if someone zerged it for them. Plus, in chain quests, people usually finish one then go straight to the next.

I don't know, waiting for others to get to the quest entrance seems like the kind of common courtesy you shouldn't have to explicitly write. I mean, it is Sharn if you weren't willing to at least wait for the other people to get there then why didn't you already solo it? Can't open on elite, maybe?

[Deathdefy]

You're both sort of in the wrong to me.

From memory Dirty Laundry is next, and is relatively short at about 3-4 minutes... but expecting them to wait outside without further communication for 3-4 minutes plus however long it took them to negotiate Sharn Syndicate quest-giver mechanics is unreasonable.

That said, going in before your leader has been inexplicably absent a truly unreasonable period of time (greater than 5 minutes at least) is poor form too. And, not communicating that they were bored and going in is poor form on their behalf.

I'd announce to groups in future that you have slow loading times and to please wait for you before going in. At least that way they're not left in limbo as to what is taking you so long.

I'd consider communication from both of you to be expected social protocol, and only due to your mutual breach did you have this issue.

[mobrien316]

I'd say both of you were wrong.


If you are the leader and have a certain way you want to do things, you cannot just assume that everyone who joins will somehow know what you want. If you don't tell them, then don't get angry when they don't know.


On the other hand, completing the quest 99% of the way before the rest of the group gets in is rather rudely presumptuous, in my opinion. That guy assumed that no one cared about the quest and just wanted the XP, which is also wrong on his part.


Someone in the thread already wrote something along the lines of: If the leader isn't giving any direction, most people will assume he doesn't care. I tend to agree with that. At that point a lot of people will assume the only requirement is that you don't die stupidly, and they will put on their zerging boots.

[Scalion]

This is really a 'power gamer' or zerger versus a 'team player' issue.

Some people have played the game for so long all they see is the exp for completion. This is especially true for people TRing multiple times. They only join groups as backup to their own awesomeness, and the only goal is on finishing as quickly as possible.

The other extreme is where a group stays together constantly and chats about everything in advance.



Most people fit somewhere in the middle of these two extremes. I totally understand where the OP is coming from on this post. I think if you're going to bother joining a group, you should at least start together. However, I can see that there are circumstances where it gets frustrating waiting for everyone and it's hard not to jump in and get started if everybody seems to be dragging their feet. I have started early on quests before, but I definitely communicate my intentions to the rest of the group first.

[Miow]

So what most of you are saying is that I can now be the 2nd or 3rd party member to join a lfm, and solo the quest while the leader is still waiting for the lfm to fill and then complete when everyone enters. The leader didn't say anything to me but welcome, so obviously no one else really wants to quest, just get xp, because what's the fun in questing anyways. At least I know I won't be blacklisted for assuming the leader would want me to start and possibly finish the quest.

Didn't you know ddo is about xp not questing geeeezzz!

[biggin]

I don't know, waiting for others to get to the quest entrance seems like the kind of common courtesy you shouldn't have to explicitly write. I mean, it is Sharn if you weren't willing to at least wait for the other people to get there then why didn't you already solo it? Can't open on elite, maybe?

Of course I can open elite, see my join date?

In the OP's example, he was running Sharn's. Most people are just going to go quest to quest non-stop. But let's say for example I was in the PL's shoes. I may need to sell, repair, etc. and need an extra minute to get to the quest. I could easily say, "Be there in one minute guys, need to sell. Start/Don't start without me." "Crashing into the zone, brb." Anything to let the party know he might not make it to the next quest in the actual minute or two that it actually takes. I don't know too many people (and I like to think I know just about every ****head on the server) that wouldn't wait a few extra minutes if everyone in party needed it. They may not like it, they may drop group and just solo it, they may rage on Vent, but they wouldn't intentionally grief anyone.

If I was in the other guys shoes and we finished one quest, we are all supposed to move on to the next, I wouldn't really think to wait 10 minutes for a 3 minute quest. In my mind the PL might need to sell and repair real quick so he might just be 30 seconds to minute behind me, more than enough time to catch up if he wanted, some free XP if he didn't. Remember, the guy didn't zerg the quest against the OP's 'rules'. He was just running the quest the way he knew how and had no idea that he was doing anything negative. Once he leaves the quest entrance, all he sees is a blue arrow behind him, he has no idea if it's one or eleven people. For all we know he might have been aggravated that the entire party was piking the entrance and making him solo it, but even then he had the courtesy to tell people to put on their voices for the bonus XP.

[MartinusWyllt]

...I wouldn't really think to wait 10 minutes for a 3 minute quest...For all we know he might have been aggravated that the entire party was piking the entrance and making him solo it, but even then he had the courtesy to tell people to put on their voices for the bonus XP.

Eh, different expectations I suppose. If I join a group I expect that I should wait until everyone is near the entrance out of common courtesy unless told otherwise. If I'm worried about how long it will take for people to get there then I solo it...especially super-fast quest chains like Sharn.

The "voices" call could have had been sarcasm, too, as you're not likely to have your VoM if you're streaking Sharn unless you're a TR.

[danotmano1998]

So am I in the wrong?

So, you put up the LFM, let the others join you, and when you got stuck in loading, they went in and basically finished the quest without you?

No, by no stretch of the imagination are you in the wrong, if that is what happened.

You shouldn't have to tell people to wait until everyone is in to do the quest. That SHOULD be common courtesy. Apparently, the other people didn't feel the same way.

Hope your PUG experiences get better with time! Good luck to you.

[grgurius]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you said that you and your friend were stuck at the loading screen? When that happens, you appear to be in the quest, just not moving, you can still type in party chat and use voice chat.

I'm guessing that the person in question didn't even notice that you are not moving, considering its a 1 min quest.

So, my personal opinion, you are in the wrong here, for being a drama queen about about it.

[learst]

Eh, different expectations I suppose. If I join a group I expect that I should wait until everyone is near the entrance out of common courtesy unless told otherwise. If I'm worried about how long it will take for people to get there then I solo it...especially super-fast quest chains like Sharn.

The "voices" call could have had been sarcasm, too, as you're not likely to have your VoM if you're streaking Sharn unless you're a TR.

Same here on the waiting for others. They should rephrased "common courtesy" as rare courtesy, seeing that it's no longer common and most folks don't give two hoots bout it.

[mobrien316]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you said that you and your friend were stuck at the loading screen? When that happens, you appear to be in the quest, just not moving, you can still type in party chat and use voice chat.

I'm guessing that the person in question didn't even notice that you are not moving, considering its a 1 min quest.

So, my personal opinion, you are in the wrong here, for being a drama queen about about it.

If you are stuck on the loading screen you can use voice chat, but how can you type in party chat? When I'm stuck on the loading screen all I see is the loading screen. I can't type in party chat.

[maha0201]

If you are stuck on the loading screen you can use voice chat, but how can you type in party chat? When I'm stuck on the loading screen all I see is the loading screen. I can't type in party chat.

Well you start to use keyboard, 1st ting you need to type is /p if you want to type in party or /g for guild and then 1 Space, after that put text you want to type. ( since you might not be in chat that have default party or guild )
You cant see what are you typing but you are typing it and others can see it to if they aren't on loading screen

[Cyr]

It is a one minute quest. You got in before a completion. Sounds like you suffered no penalties for it.

Yes, you are in the wrong. You asked others to drop their LFMs and join yours, but put no special conditions upon that.

[Enoach]

This is a split. All parties carry the burden of what transpired and its eventual aftermath.

It appears that you invited someone else to your group and they accepted the invitation and than proceeded to run the quest how they wanted to run the quest.

Both parties failed to communicate that is true.

The problem as I see it is the difference between people who play a game and people that work at a game.

While there are MMO's out there that require the party leader to open quests, DDO is not one of them. But that does not preclude us from assuming we can just get started.

The following are just personal rules I follow:

• If I'm not the party leader - I don't open the quest, unless instructed to by the party leader
• If I don't like the wait time to get started and cannot convince the group that we don't need 6 people - I will leave.

Things I believe in life you just don't do to get along with others

• Move someones cigarettes and lighter while sitting at a bar
• Take over someone else's BBQ
• Criticize a Host/Hostess at their event
• Assume Everyone plays DDO the same way

[Chai]

No one has to ask you permission to play a specific way.

When you put an LFM up, specify playstyle in the LFM will attract more people who play the same. If they still play a way that contradicts what the LFM said, ask them if they read the LFM. If they dont want to follow at that point, recall reform without them.

[laurawilder]

You ate totally correct. You are all right and they were all wrong. You had the star and those that join should follow your lead. It is that simple if the wish to do otherwise ask you or leave group. But then again just like in game I witness this behavior more in rl these days as well.

[varusso]

/rant on

So my friend and I were about to start Stand ur Ground and I saw a couple of lfms up for that that had only one person in there. One said elite, trapper needed, the other nothing. I sent a tell to both that my friend and I were about to do it and they were welcome to join us (my friend was a rogue). My friend doesnt like to pug usually as she doesnt know the quests well and everyone in pugs zerg's. I figured as I was the leader though, I could set the pace. Stand ur Ground went fine. We exit and go on to next quest. Well, my friend and I have slow loading and had major lag and by the time we stepped into the quest, the guy who had the lfm up for elite/trapper said 'voices'. Now, I understand that TR's like to zerg (as I am a TR too), but for him to assume that he had the right to start whenever and zerg thru when he didn't have the star, to me is just down right rude and inconsiderate. He said I should have told him when he joined that I had someone new to quest and not to zerg b/c everyone zergs. To me this is just backwards. I always wait for the leader to start the quest unless told otherwise, and if he says we zerg, I do so...I even ask sometimes if I see lots of TRs in group or if leader is TR. I just can't get over the fact that he said it was all my fault for not telling him not to do so when he joined and he shouldn't have to ask. It just proved to my friend that you can't ask random ppl to play with you. I apologized to her as I thought me asking a couple ppl who had no zerg in their lfm and no one else joining them would respect me enough as leader to have the decency to state ahead of time their intensions. So am I in the wrong?

/rant off

Highlighted the really relevant part above. You indicate that you know "everyone zergs" in pugs. If you dont want a zerg run, you should specify that, especially when you start sending tells to join you, rather than waiting for folks to hit an LFM (with no zerg in the notes). Since he joined your group, he should also have asked, but you should have been clear. Both sides need to communicate.

In general, the prevalent attitude these days is that a pug that does not state otherwise is a zerg -- "zerging" being a relative term. What a new player would consider a zerg is not what a multi-TR vet player would consider a zerg, but merely a relatively fast pace completion.

[Purgatory]

Things I believe in life you just don't do to get along with others

• Move someones cigarettes and lighter while sitting at a bar
• Take over someone else's BBQ
• Criticize a Host/Hostess at their event
• Assume Everyone plays DDO the same way

* but you can procede to tell them the harmful effects of 2nd hand smoke and ud rather not share a hospital room in the future with them.
* never take over someones BBQ but if its bad make sure you drink all there beer to wash it down.
* nope but you can talk bad about them behind there backs like normal people do
* exactly no one is as good as me so oviously they not playing the same way otherwise they would be.

[MysticElaine]

So I think I need to clarify a few points.

First, I didn't put up an LFM. I sent a tell to the person stating I saw his LFM had been up for a while and my friend and I were about to do that quest and he could join us if he wanted. I wasn't asking him to drop his lfm because I wanted to get a group together as my friend and I could do it easily on our own; I was asking to try and be helpful to that person since no one had clicked his lfm (and as a side note, his lfm didnt say he was zerging either, which many do). At this point, if I was him, I probably would have said, I like to zerg, is that alright with you? I would have said no, and he might have then said he would pass on joining. So yes, there was a bit of communication error here, and as I never had a leader in a pug I have join say welcome, no zerg, I didn't think to say that either. I know now for future ref.

Second, I had a long loading screen from exiting the first quest, not entering the second. There is no way I have found to type in party chat when I am in a loading screen because my cursor isn't in the chat box. When I exited, I looked at map and saw he was at quest and I typed sorry, slow loading, and I have lag at the moment. I guess I should have stated I wanted him to wait, but why couldn't he have asked if he could start?

@Deathdefy --I will definitely take ur suggestion of stating b4 hand to all future groups that I have slow loading on the days that I do

@Hungarian --that's a deal...I solo that quest all the time, though, I would probably have to be 2nd on joining ur lfm and the lfm be slow at recruiting ppl for me to be finished by the time it fills

[Enoach]

* but you can procede to tell them the harmful effects of 2nd hand smoke and ud rather not share a hospital room in the future with them.

Sorry I sometimes forget that there are still places that allow you to smoke in public areas . Been in California too long, I think if I got asked the question "Smoking or Non-Smoking" my brain wouldn't engage fast enough hehe. I don't miss those half-walls that separated the sections.