Turbine DOES Listen. Examples:

[GrampaBill]

Sorry, but I can't get all misty eyed over this subject. Turbine has shown a vast disconnect between the staff and player game playing experience. An overriding sense I get from their past actions is there is a prevailing attitude that most players are a bunch of complaining noobs who don't know what they are talking about. They have also shown to be related to the mule as most times it requires the application of force utilizing a long piece of wood over the top of their craniums to get them to pay attention to what the user base is saying.

For how long was lag blamed upon the user's equipment before they finally decided to consider that there may be a problem at their end?

For how long did players lose green steel equipment in Abbot before they decided that it really was happening?

For how long did players complain about the unasked for change in the Normal Shroud blades before it was acknowledged as an oopsy?

To me, one of the greatest sins is to say that something was fixed in the Release notes and in actuality it wasn't.

I could go on and I'm sure there are many here who could fill pages with examples.

This all said I must also say that there are beacons of hope being displayed recently. The "Let's Talk" forum topics are a fantastic way for the staff to begin to appreciate the player experience. The Bravery Bonus was a great idea. The overhaul of some epic items was greatly appreciated (and yet still needs vast expansion). So, while I neither condemn nor hold Turbine harmless I do hold out hope for a better future.

[HAL]

Cauthey, give it a rest man. Talking about how they respond to problems that THEY created doesn't help matters. Everyone who falls all over themselves to be grateful when a dev responds to a bug report is pathetic. It doesn't say anything good about this game that people are impressed that devs respond to bug reports...

[Uma-Quixote]

It is impossible to find all the bugs in any decent sized piece of software.



Which games are those?



Sure go and do a programming course and then develop and release a decent size program. You will then fully understand the explanation. :-)

Been playing a lot of Rift lately.....and guess what?

I haven't experienced ANY lag!....and it seems the only time lag is discussed it's by ex DDO players who rejoice in not having to put up with it anymore.

[Ew_vastano]

Been playing a lot of Rift lately.....and guess what?

I haven't experienced ANY lag!....and it seems the only time lag is discussed it's by ex DDO players who rejoice in not having to put up with it anymore.

funnily enough i been playing swtor and hellgate and guess what I love finaly after 2 1/2 years not having any lag

but seriosly op turbine hasnt listened to players for the first 2 years i was here, funny how they have suddenly started listening and doing things just after large amounts of ppl left for star wars and all of a sudden theres 3 new f2p games coming out ( ie diablo 3 release may 15 2012, guild wars 3 going into beta shortly, neverwinter online funnily enough a d & d game based in FR release just after exp).


dont stand there and tell me turbine listenes the only reason they are doing things is because there will only be ppl like the op left if the game carries on as is

[arjiwan]

I created an elaborated reply to this thread showing my opinions, but ended up deleting the whole thing.


I'll just make this short instead since my opinion was never validated nor even listened to. (I want some internet hugs).

My opinion is, they only listen to the people they want to. I've seen good posts, suggestions and even valid respectful complains. Sad to see them being ignored.

I really respect DDO so much. I've spent countless hours of my free time. This is definitely a great game.

Sadly, I feel that they aim for profits first, good product later.

[Alrik_Fassbauer]

They recently fixed a bug I had encountered and sent in.

Promptly several high-level players came in and demanded that "feature" to be given back to them !

(It was a case of accidentally overwriting shards bound to an item. To me, this is a bug, to others it is a "nice feature", because they used this "accidentally overwriting" as a tool right until then.)

However, a more serious translation bug has never been covered so far. And it is imho really serious, because it spreads the - supposedly - wrongly translated abbreviation of the Artificer throughout ALL German-language scrolls ...

[UltraMonk2]

For how long was lag blamed upon the user's equipment before they finally decided to consider that there may be a problem at their end?

I think you misunderstand the process of determining the cause of lag and therefore finding if it is the server or not.

Example: 100,000 people play X game, 1 player reports a problem. Suggested Solution: Player looks at their own system for cause of problem. The majority of the time a problem is found with players system.

It is only when multiple people report the same issue that it can be upgraded to possibly being a server issue, and even then it still could be a particular make of video card, a particular isp, etc.

Any game developer is not in the business of providing support for a persons own computer problems or even network problems. However the more concise descriptive information is given, the better the outcome.

People have been known to blame power outages on their own ISP.

[UltraMonk2]

Been playing a lot of Rift lately.....and guess what?

I haven't experienced ANY lag!....and it seems the only time lag is discussed it's by ex DDO players who rejoice in not having to put up with it anymore.

I was actually responding to your comments about bugs, not the lag. But hey fair enough call as I wasn't specific with that response.

From the Rift Forums:

* Can't connect or having lag? (23-Mar-2012 Dev Post)
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...-lag-were.html

In the Rift Tech Support Forums:

* Lag and frequent d/c since patch fix
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...patch-fix.html

* Massive latency spikes
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...cy-spikes.html

* Vid card temps (Hey I found it interesting)
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ard-temps.html

* Still getting lag spikes
http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ag-spikes.html


Every single MMO has some customers that have lag issues. It isn't unique to DDO.

All I am trying to say is that every single lag issue that is reported does not mean it is Turbine's fault or their end, yet some people consistently carry on like it is.

[Master_of_None]

Here's another example for you. One of many threads on this subject.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...00#post3452700

[Razcar]

Sorry I can't find the dev quote but it was mentioned by a dev quite a while back that if you find a problem with a ladder somewhere then bug report it so they know which ones to fix.

Which is understandable because if they don't know which particular ones are broken then they will never know they need to fix it. :-)

The ladder bug which they "fix" sometimes is IIRC due to two (or more) ladders that have been glued together, and your character starts to hitch when you reach the gap. But the general ladder bug can affect any ladder when you first start to climb it.

Thus the maneuver that has been perfected by all Stormreach adventurers worth their salt - the ladder leap. No one climbs the first step of a ladder in this fantasy realm, instead they make a fearless vault right to the middle of it. Let's just hope that any player won't forget themselves and start doing this in RL...

[GrampaBill]

In the end, I sincerely hope that we don't get a post like the following that was posted for Eve Online: http://community.eveonline.com/devbl...blog&nbid=2672

A relevant part of the post: Somewhere along the way, I began taking success for granted. As hubris set in, I became less inclined to listen to pleas for caution. Red flags raised by very smart people both at CCP and in the community went unheeded because of my stubborn refusal to allow adversity to gain purchase on our plans. Mistakes, even when they were acknowledged, often went unanalyzed, leaving the door open for them to be repeated.

I hope we don't get it because that'd likely mean it's too late to turn the ship. But I do hope that some at Turbine read that post and pay attention to what happens, then maybe they'll come to a similar realization: The greatest lesson for me is the realization that EVE belongs to you, and we at CCP are just the hosts of your experience. When we channel our passion for EVE constructively, we can make this vision a reality together.

[FrostBeard]

Cauthey sad to say but i think you care more about turbines honor then they do.

[Alavatar]

We want TWF style users to not have an offhand proc for tactical abilities because that would make them too much more powerful than THF.
Granted!

We want monks to have only one use of a tactical ability instead of two (with a possibility of a doublestrike third use) because it's important for Monks to not stun more enemies than a Barbarian could.
Granted!

We want to use clickies and torches in challenges/cove while wearing our Madstone boots.
Granted!

We want Favored Souls to lose their wings in raids because that's the part that is really overpowered.
Granted!

Peacemaker had too few HP on Lamannia. It should have at least 100,000 HP so that we can really savor and enjoy that end fight.
Granted!

Non-endgame raid bosses don't have enough HP. Their HP should be increased by at least 50% so that we don't get bored by those raids on our capped, epic geared characters. Because beating on the exact same boss for 50% longer will much more exciting that the way that the raid currently works.
Granted!

This looks like you are quoting Shade.

[Ravoc-DDO]

We want more chalenge in epic quest

You must be playing casters mostly...

[Cauthey]

Updated the "MOAR Listening" post. Thank you for those that have added links or reminders.

Still doesn't list "Brought the game back into balance". /fail

I disagree, kind sir. Their accomplishments are NOTFAIL. Instead, they are biting off more than they can chew, and they're chewing it.

Class balance will likely always be an issue to some degree. They can make tweaks here, and adjustments there. But, anytime they introduce a new class, they run the risk of tipping the balance scales in one direction or another. Does that mean that Turbine should staunchly take the position of "No more new classes!" ? No, it does not.

Anything they add, I feel sure that they will have rigorously tested. But I seriously doubt that anyone except the balls-out, hardcore, live player community will be able to give any new content an adequate test to protect against possibly unbalanced new features. Turbine simply does not have the budget or the time to provide the diversity and scale of testing that the live player community does.

For example, they could release a new and harmless Fart Catcher class. Well, it would be completely harmless until someone decides to unleash a potent, hybrid multiclass build that breaks the game: like the Evasion-style Fart Repeater Mechanic build. You just can't see poo like that coming.

[waterboytkd]

To the OP, the last 3 months have actually been pretty amazing. The open dialogues, the fairly quick responses to players, the earlier Lama launches that can actually incorporate our changes--it's pretty sweet. One thing to consider, though, is what we just came from, and why a lot of people are so negative. I wasn't here for the vast and mysterious nothing that happened when Atari and Turbine had their big breakup, but from what I hear from guildies that were, it was awful.

However, I was here for:

We want TWF style users to not have an offhand proc for tactical abilities because that would make them too much more powerful than THF.
Granted!

We want monks to have only one use of a tactical ability instead of two (with a possibility of a doublestrike third use) because it's important for Monks to not stun more enemies than a Barbarian could.
Granted!

We want to use clickies and torches in challenges/cove while wearing our Madstone boots.
Granted!

We want Favored Souls to lose their wings in raids because that's the part that is really overpowered.
Granted!

Peacemaker had too few HP on Lamannia. It should have at least 100,000 HP so that we can really savor and enjoy that end fight.
Granted!

Non-endgame raid bosses don't have enough HP. Their HP should be increased by at least 50% so that we don't get bored by those raids on our capped, epic geared characters. Because beating on the exact same boss for 50% longer will much more exciting that the way that the raid currently works.
Granted!

Now, in all fairness to the Madstone one, they psuedo-killed it. Players showed their displeasure in the Lama forums, and the devs killed it...kind of. One change somehow still slipped through (the fatigue thing), but the greater bulk of changes were stopped--that should count as listening.

However, all those other changes happened in 2011. Other than U9, I view 2011 as the DDO Dark Ages, where shortsightedness and reactionary tendencies ruled the day. The changes to the tactics was insane--in fact, it ran against pretty much everything everyone on the forums was saying. Casters had become so much better at end game than melees with U9, yet it seemed like melees were on the receiving end of unnecessary nerfs. To me, at least, it seemed like everyone was asking for full proccing for tactics, to both the offhand and to glancing blows*.

The wings thing...I don't want to get into that again. But yeah...I felt the wings were not the problem.

Boss hp, though, is a thing that was beyond my comprehension. Especially with an expansion in the works, why would they bother trying to "expand" the end game by buffing the middle-game? And the fortification changes...look above to melees vs casters. Again, it seemed like more nerfs to melees while casters were still better. They then hacked some boss hp down, and gave us more ways to overcome fortification...but those tended to be feats, and melees are already super-strapped for feats (you need 3 feats for your fighting style, Power Attack, Improved Crit, and Toughness already, so 6 of your 7 non-bonus feats, leaving you 1 feat for PrE prereqs; making it almost required to take Imp Sunder, as well, is a bit much for Barbarians, Paladins, and Rogues, and even Rangers).

Turbine, if you're listening/lurking (looking at you, KookieKobold), the changes of 2011 should still be seriously reviewed and reconsidered. A lot of them were bad. I mean, you know it was bad when a lot of players considered the bag bug exploit in December to be one of the best changes to happen that year. :S

*Dear Turbine, if you're still listening even after that last paragraph, I think some serious consideration--and by serious, I mean like terminal illness serious--should be given to letting tactics proc to off-hands AND glancing blows. This would accomplish three things: first, it would make the use of tactics more popular, thus reducing the notion of melees being one-dimensional dps machines (a notion I think leads to some serious fallacies, and even worse, if those fallacies are believed by enough, it leaks into game design--I LOVE the idea that even the hardest raid in DDO can be soundly beaten without requiring players to bring only full-****** [insert party role here]); second, it would make melees who actually use those tactics more effective in end-game quests, especially 6-man epic quests--both stuns and trips make an enemy stop attacking, which gives the melee the damage mitigation that it ABSOLUTELY needs to survive those quests without a babysitter glued to their back; third, it would create a very clear difference in the play styles of THF vs TWF.

I want to elaborate on that last idea: part of the TWF change in U5 was to bring the dps of TWF and THF closer together. You don't want one style being so clearly better than the other. My proposed tactics change would also close any viability gaps, not by making them closer to the same, but by giving them their own role. If tactics procced to TWF offhands (even if it did it incorrectly as some monk special attacks seem to--getting as many as 4 additional procs of an ability, for example, which is not as big of a problem as it may seem), then TWF tactics users would excel at landing those tactics on single targets. The target would most likely be forced to make multiple saves to resist the tactic, making it less likely that it would actually resist. On the other hand, if tactics procced onto glancing blows, it would turn THF tactics users into great AoE melees. Throw down a stunning blow, and watch all the mobs in your front arc make a save vs stun. Throw out a trip, and watch the group standing right in front of you fall down.

So TWF tactics users would be better at dealing with and eliminating single targets, while THF tactics users would be able to mitigate the effectiveness of entire groups of mobs.

It would be awesome. More melee builds would have more roles than just beat stick in the end game vs trash, which in turn would make more melee builds more effective at end game vs trash, and it would make different melee builds actually feel quite different, all while keeping them all effective.

Sorry if my post went a little off-topic from the thread, but as long as we're talking about devs listening, I figured, throw something out there they could listen to. :P

[Cauthey]

<snip feedback about other MMO experiences>

dont stand there and tell me turbine listenes the only reason they are doing things is because there will only be ppl like the op left if the game carries on as is

No, I will stand here and tell you that Turbine listens. I have 20+ examples of Turbine 1) witnessing community gripes/desires/feedback, and 2) acting upon it. Some of those examples were quicker responses than others, and some are still pending. But, my argument is sound: Turbine DOES listen.

I did not set out to dispute or discuss your experiences in other MMOs. Clearly, yes...those are DDO's competitors. And to be successful, Turbine will need to strive to be the best in their class. I believe that they are doing that, but that is a separate topic.

Further, I should hope that you chose to invest your game playtime into a game that you thoroughly enjoy, for your sake and everyone else's.

I created an elaborated reply to this thread showing my opinions, but ended up deleting the whole thing.

Man, I effing hate that. Better copy/paste this response right now to keep that from happening. I feel your pain, bro.

I'll just make this short instead since my opinion was never validated nor even listened to. (I want some internet hugs).

My opinion is, they only listen to the people they want to. I've seen good posts, suggestions and even valid respectful complains. Sad to see them being ignored.

I really respect DDO so much. I've spent countless hours of my free time. This is definitely a great game.

Sadly, I feel that they aim for profits first, good product later.

*internet hug* *internet hug*

Profits are certainly high on their agenda. But, really, who's agenda are profits not on? Especially these days.

The good product will come. And, the good product will come easier when they can establish sustainable profits. My hope is that they have done that and are continuing to do that, especially with all of the mentions of growing their Dev team.

For how long <snip>

For how long <snip>

For how long <snip>

This is an MMO, with 10s if not 100s of thousands of players (I've never claimed to be a scholar of their population stats). For the most part*, 24/7/365 uptime. Nothing is going to move fast in that kind of an environment. Plus, you don't want their cycles to be fast! If they were, we'd probably be seeing bugs 10 fold compared to what we're seeing currently.

Another post in response to yours stated it well. Turbine is less likely expend resources to research a bug that has only been submitted by 1 player out of 100,000. Also, it's human nature to shrug much of our disgruntled experience off, and not go back to the source to report it. In Raving Fans, it's stated that maybe 1 person out of 10 that have an overwhelmingly negative experience will bother to bring that bad experience to the attention of the business. Instead, some of those 10 will either shrug it off, and come back anyway. Or, they'll take their business somewhere else. So, if 1,000 out of 100,000 experience game crippling lag at a particular moment, Turbine might only receive 100 bug reports on it. Of those 100 bug reports, how many of them do you think are actually legible, or include helpful information?

With sneaky, not-all-the-time type problems, human nature and the math are NOT on the side of getting things identified and fixed swiftly. Sad, but true.

* Yeah, yeah, whatever! Sure they have maintenance downtime! But, for the most part, DDO is 24/7/365.

To me, one of the greatest sins is to say that something was fixed in the Release notes and in actuality it wasn't.

I could go on and I'm sure there are many here who could fill pages with examples.

This all said I must also say that there are beacons of hope being displayed recently. The "Let's Talk" forum topics are a fantastic way for the staff to begin to appreciate the player experience. The Bravery Bonus was a great idea. The overhaul of some epic items was greatly appreciated (and yet still needs vast expansion). So, while I neither condemn nor hold Turbine harmless I do hold out hope for a better future.

I can forgive them the errors in the Release Notes. Though, I see your point. If they're going to say x, then it darn tootin' had better be x. Still, I can appreciate and forgive the occasional mistakes. Particularly for people that I believe are busting their butts to stick to an incredibly aggressive content schedule.

The "Let's Talks" are definitely a great series. They have been a really constructive avenue for the community to pile in feedback to the Devs. I just get the impression with their current deliverable that are pending (read: Lolth!), coming and "playing" on the forums is not very high on their list right now.

Cauthey, give it a rest man. Talking about how they respond to problems that THEY created doesn't help matters. Everyone who falls all over themselves to be grateful when a dev responds to a bug report is pathetic. It doesn't say anything good about this game that people are impressed that devs respond to bug reports...

I'm just saying that they listen. I have a lot of respect for them, and I do try to fall all over myself to thank them and congratulate them. Because just like the 10 negative experiences where only 1 gripes, the same is true for positive. For every 10 that think that Turbine's doing a great job, they may only get 1 pat on the back. Maybe even less since humans tend to focus and remark only on the negative, and not on the positive.

I like it when I get praise for doing a good job. I'm sure that most reading this are the same. Therefore, I will try to go out of my way and recognize others when I see jobs well done. Because I know that 9 others aren't going to be bothered to.

Cauthey sad to say but i think you care more about turbines honor then they do.

I imagine that they care about their own honor plenty. They're just not as foolish as I am to attempt to defend their honor in an internet forum.

[MindCake]

No, I will stand here and tell you that Turbine listens. I have 20+ examples of Turbine 1) witnessing community gripes/desires/feedback, and 2) acting upon it.

Many of those could be nothing more than http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

For example, let's look at the first one:

These are in no particular order:
Players: We want more upper level and epic content!
Turbine:
Menace of the Underdark, coming June 25th (Epic levels 21-25)
Update 11: Secrets of the Artificers (3 new quests, 2 new raids)
Update 13: Web of Chaos (3 new F2P quests, including epics)

Seriously? You take an increase of level cap as a sign of Turbine listening to the players? What were they going to do otherwise? Keep the same level cap FOREVER?



Granted, a couple of points sound pretty convincing.
But when you have thousands of people, some saying "go left" some saying "go right", some saying stop, accelerate, spin in circles or do a barrel roll, then whatever you do, it may seem you listened to someone.

Eg. Druids, sure, there are posts amounting to "Give us druids"... and there are also posts amounting to "Fix some bugs before making another class.", "Finish enhancement lines for the existing classes before introducing new ones", "new classes should be free to VIPs", "add gnomes first", etc.
Did Turbine really listen to the group wishing for druids, and decided their case is more important than the gnome peoples'?
Or did they just compare costs and profits of Artificer and Horc sales and go with the more efficient one?
Not to mention Druids are a core class, and were on the "to do" list very long ago, possibly from the very beginning even.

New enhancement UI? Great idea. Copying enhancement trees? Not so much.


And the bug reports? It's great they treat them seriously, really. So what are the answers to the serious bugs?
-Fixes coming / we're working on it.
-Be glad I'm not a content developer.
-Looks like an issue. We're investigating.
-We're working on it.
-Probable fix incoming!
Listening: +
Acting: pending


So yeah. I'm not saying it's all doom or anything, but colour me not impressed.

[Uma-Quixote]

You must be playing casters mostly...

Thanks for the laugh!...this thread has been pretty serious...moar gags, less lags