Looking for Horc, dark, 36 point monk, lots of DPS

[smithj_2020]

Anyways whats the debate? he wants a 36 pt Horc dark mink build....so gtfoh with the Helf talk!

[smithj_2020]

If you were tanking something on your half-orc barbarian with me healing you, and you started spamming supreme cleave, I would let you die. Doing things that make it HARDER for the healer to keep you alive when you're already trying to tank on a self-damaging class that doesn't have any significant damage mitigation (and yes, up to 9/- dr is insignificant) is asking to die. Also, let me know how many pug LoBs you run, or really any pug above hard difficulty on pretty much any raid without at least a few people you know. I bet the number is pretty low...and considering that it's only on elite or epic that fort is high enough to need debuffing in addition to improved sunder (and possibly destruction)....you're almost guaranteed to have someone who can lower fort in raids where fort is high enough to matter.

Seriously? You wouldn't let him die....he's a barb he's gotta frenzy d frenzy and supreme cleave. I do this on my barb all the time and tank everything from ToD-eLoB...mind you I have the fear for heal amp and 977 hps raging but, it really doesn't drain me of HP a to where I get close to dying.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Lolz that's a good one.

Come watch my max DPS Horc barbarian on Khyber tank the you-name-it toughest bosses in the game. And he does it with spammed Supreme Cleaves and double frenzy on. That's the most self-DPS you can deal to yourself while still having the highest DPS in the game and STILL being an excellent tank.

Classes that can make great tanks and go without saying are Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Monks, and Favored Souls. Only Rogues and Rangers are strictly DPS-only classes simply because they can't acquire the HP and damage resistance needed to make great tanks. Yet there are people out there challenging the norm every day building tempest tanks for example.

If your monk build can't maintank any raid in the game on any difficulty in the game, then it's a poor monk build. If you don't have DPS, you can't hold aggro without massive boosts to hate via gear and such, eating up slots that could go towards more useful things like damage, HP, and saves. Having DPS is also highly recommended for a raid tank because it allows you to contribute more damage to the boss and thus end the raid faster.

Your fort claims are unrealistic and refer to guild runs or with people you know. In PuGs, not everyone carries all the fort debuffs in the game on them and not everyone who carries will remember to use it. That's why I only rely on my own fort debuffs for 100% reliable accurate damage. Quite simply, it's impractical to assume that a boss like the LoB will be debuffed to 0% fort every single time or even the majority of the time. Possible does not equal Practical.

So you've successfully tanked an entire eLoB on your barbarian? Am I reading that right? And every pure monk should be building to tank eLoB despite the fact that it's impractical to hit the HP minimums for it?

As another poster said, helf still makes the better tank as you can take the lead on hate with much greater ease with versatility: damage.

Only elite or epic raids have the 80% fortification that can see horc overtaking helf and applying appropriate fort debuffs in these raids is a factor in whether the raid is successful or not. Particularly in eLoB Blasting Chime is very cheap, improved sunder is easy to land (I can manage it on my rogue) and he attacks fast enough that 1-2 stacks of FvS aura isn't unreasonable. Right there you're down to 10 or 30% fortification. Add destruction/improved destruction and the fortification is starting to look quite minimal. However, it only needs to drop below 50% for helf to have more DPS and that is pretty easy - really, if it isn't consistently below 50% then chances of success aren't too high overall.

The attitude of:
- I don't need heal amp beyond what gear offers
- I do as much damage to myself as possible when I tank
- I don't need significant damage mitigation to tank any boss in the game, even elob

Tells me that you've never played a healer, I feel sorry for the ones that you run with.

[WruntJunior]

Seriously? You wouldn't let him die....he's a barb he's gotta frenzy d frenzy and supreme cleave. I do this on my barb all the time and tank everything from ToD-eLoB...mind you I have the fear for heal amp and 977 hps raging but, it really doesn't drain me of HP a to where I get close to dying.

I would absolutely let a ******** tank die. I'm not using up my resources so some idiot playing a bad tank can feel better. That said, a barbarian CAN tank...but it's far from a good one.

This is far from the point of the thread, though...

[Wraith_Sarevok]

So you've successfully tanked an entire eLoB on your barbarian? Am I reading that right? And every pure monk should be building to tank eLoB despite the fact that it's impractical to hit the HP minimums for it?

As another poster said, helf still makes the better tank as you can take the lead on hate with much greater ease with versatility: damage.

Only elite or epic raids have the 80% fortification that can see horc overtaking helf and applying appropriate fort debuffs in these raids is a factor in whether the raid is successful or not. Particularly in eLoB Blasting Chime is very cheap, improved sunder is easy to land (I can manage it on my rogue) and he attacks fast enough that 1-2 stacks of FvS aura isn't unreasonable. Right there you're down to 10 or 30% fortification. Add destruction/improved destruction and the fortification is starting to look quite minimal. However, it only needs to drop below 50% for helf to have more DPS and that is pretty easy - really, if it isn't consistently below 50% then chances of success aren't too high overall.

The attitude of:
- I don't need heal amp beyond what gear offers
- I do as much damage to myself as possible when I tank
- I don't need significant damage mitigation to tank any boss in the game, even elob

Tells me that you've never played a healer, I feel sorry for the ones that you run with.

No, I haven't maintanked an eLoB on this Horc TR yet. But only because I haven't gotten the opportunity. I've off-tanked it quite well on my last WF life. And I'm perfectly capable of maintanking it with a couple of good healers watching. How is it impractical to hit 650-700 HP on a monk? That's all you need with the DR's and cloudkill in place. Doable with some hard-to-get raid gear and buffs.

- You DON'T. If you can't adequately heal a fleshie tank at 200% amp or a WF tank at 100% amp, your healer is the problem. It's not enough that we double your base heal output? Once again, it's more important that the healer has a high output than the tank having a high amp.

- I never said that. I'm trying to show you how all that self damage amounts to nothing compared to what the enemy can dish out. Obviously if I'm tanking something like epic lord of blades, a long and intensely damaging raid, I forgo supreme cleaves to make it easier on the healers.

- No, you don't. High healing amp trumps significant damage mitigation any day. Wear a 5/- DR item, throw up a cloudkill, and you're set for the raid. Healers can keep you alive through scrolls, capstones, and intermittent heals until the boss falls. They should not need to resort to pots unless this is something like elite VoD.

Once again, no healer I've ever run with has complained that my barb was too much of a hassle to heal. But the healers you describe seem to be more interested in having a full blue bar at all times and seeing big green numbers appear on their screen than actually keeping people alive.

And really? You need all those fort reductions to win? I'm sure Blasting Chime didn't exist and Improved Destruction was bugged when the raid came out, yet people still completed it on epic. They are nice to have, but they are not "required" to win.

[WruntJunior]

No, I haven't maintanked an eLoB on this Horc TR yet. But only because I haven't gotten the opportunity. I've off-tanked it quite well on my last WF life. And I'm perfectly capable of maintanking it with a couple of good healers watching.

Lets start at the top. An off-tank is not a difficult role to play in eLoB - you just have to have high HP and good damage. Therefore, barbarians tend to do it fine. Main tank is a completely different thing. Without significant damage mitigation and healing amp, your healers are struggling keep up with the damage the LoB is putting out while mashing the heal button. The idea in tough end-game raids such as eLoB is to be able to be scroll-healed as the tank - not being able to be scroll-healed (such as being a barbarian like you) results in a very resource-intensive run.

How is it impractical to hit 650-700 HP on a monk? That's all you need with the DR's and cloudkill in place. Doable with some hard-to-get raid gear and buffs.

600 hp, earth stance 4, shadow fade, and a healing amp over 200% makes a monk a great tank for anything except horoth and LoB on a difficulty above normal...and that's easily doable. The extra 50-100 HP to get horoth-ready...that's where the difficulty really starts. Really, though, I'm of the opinion that any decent pure monk should have the capability to tank at least Suulo...or they're not really a decent monk.

- You DON'T. If you can't adequately heal a fleshie tank at 200% amp or a WF tank at 100% amp, your healer is the problem. It's not enough that we double your base heal output? Once again, it's more important that the healer has a high output than the tank having a high amp.

I am now positive that you have never played a healer. A tank that can't be scroll-healed most of the time isn't a good tank (and having more than two ranks of scroll mastery isn't something that every FvS or Cleric can afford...in fact, most can't). Mana in most difficult raids shouldn't be for keeping the tank up when everything is going calmly...a significant portion should be able to be reserved for when things go wrong (or in the case of everything going fine, used to DoT to bring the boss down more quickly).

- I never said that. I'm trying to show you how all that self damage amounts to nothing compared to what the enemy can dish out. Obviously if I'm tanking something like epic lord of blades, a long and intensely damaging raid, I forgo supreme cleaves to make it easier on the healers.

Once again, you show me that you've never played a healer...the extra damage that supreme cleave does to you is noticeable, and can be a stress on resources...by all means, if you have enough healing amp where the healer is filling you up on most heals anyways, it's fine...but only in that case.

- No, you don't. High healing amp trumps significant damage mitigation any day. Wear a 5/- DR item, throw up a cloudkill, and you're set for the raid. Healers can keep you alive through scrolls, capstones, and intermittent heals until the boss falls. They should not need to resort to pots unless this is something like elite VoD.

Interesting self-contradiction there...it takes enough healing amp for a scroll to fill your red bar from almost empty for having no damage mitigation (or very little, as you're suggesting) to be sufficient. By the way, if your healers have to pot in elite VoD due to healing you...you shouldn't be tanking.

Once again, no healer I've ever run with has complained that my barb was too much of a hassle to heal. But the healers you describe seem to be more interested in having a full blue bar at all times and seeing big green numbers appear on their screen than actually keeping people alive.

Every post you make tells me how little you know about playing a healer. This one tells me several times. I am slightly surprised if no healer has complained about you being difficult to heal while you're tanking, though...especially since, as you said you were a wf barb before, I would right out tell you you're not tanking if I was healing (I don't like wasting pots where a decent tank would easily be heal-scrolled).

And really? You need all those fort reductions to win? I'm sure Blasting Chime didn't exist and Improved Destruction was bugged when the raid came out, yet people still completed it on epic. They are nice to have, but they are not "required" to win.

Have you run many eLoBs? Debuffing is one of the keys to getting the LoB down quickly enough that pots aren't burned just for a completion.

[WruntJunior]

Hey

I've played a monk quite some time now (First life with Metaru, second life a light monk), and now I really want to try a maximum DPS monk.

My thoughts are to go Half orc (extra strength), use at least one of my active past life feats, and going dark (Dark seems to fit me better, I find my current light monk kinda boring).

My only problem is, I don't seem to be able to find a build that suits me very well.

I want lots and lots of damage, but it seems like all the guides/builds I can find are with light, but why?

So: I'm hoping that some of you guys will be able to give a rough guideline to follow or a link to a build

Thanks in advance

Now, to get this topic back on track...if, like you said, you want a maximum DPS monk, your best bet is a half-elf dark monk.

Stat spread of 16/16/16/8/14/8 with all points in str gets you grandmaster air and earth stance (the best dps and survival/tanking stance, respectively) with just +2 tomes, and allows you to get your wisdom high enough to have great DCs (especially with epic spare hand).

Feats would be: TWF, Toughness, Rogue Dilly (cleric for leveling), Monk Past Life, (Dark path feat, of course), Power Attack, Stunning Fist, ITWF, IC: Bludgeoning, GTWF, and Improved Sunder.

For enhancements, make sure your stats are even and that you have Human Versatility as far as you can afford, as well as maxing out your rogue dilly enhancements (to get to 3d6 sneak attack).

Hit points will be pretty good, and it's an all-around solid monk build that does great damage (same build I use, except I have cleric dilly at cap for self-sufficiency...and toughness twice so that when I get certain gear, I can self-buff to 700 HP when I get to finish my gear).

If you would rather have half-orc, the same build can be adapted to half-orc, and gains 2 str without any real stat loss....although they do a bit less damage, have a slightly worse attack bonus (if set up for max dps), don't get human versatility or dillys, and look horribad. Everything else is the same.

On an aside, this monk makes a rather nice tank for me due to ~630 HP self-buffed in earth stance 4 with shadow fade....your mileage may vary, but most likely, it'll work out awesomely for you. (Still a bit short on gear myself due to epic scrolls and power cell shortages (martials and greaters for alchemical handwraps), but that'll only make it even better.)

[HLP]

After I've read the entire discussion, you guys might have a point... So Half elf it is

With regards to enhancements, I'm thinking something like:
Monk wis, Improved concentraiton, Human versa, air and earth stances, ToD (And all the prereq), and what more? (Of course some monk recovery and human)