Looking for Horc, dark, 36 point monk, lots of DPS

**HLP** · 03-25-2012, 05:38 PM

Hey

I've played a monk quite some time now (First life with Metaru, second life a light monk), and now I really want to try a maximum DPS monk.

My thoughts are to go Half orc (extra strength), use at least one of my active past life feats, and going dark (Dark seems to fit me better, I find my current light monk kinda boring).

My only problem is, I don't seem to be able to find a build that suits me very well.

I want lots and lots of damage, but it seems like all the guides/builds I can find are with light, but why?

So: I'm hoping that some of you guys will be able to give a rough guideline to follow or a link to a build

Thanks in advance

**Quetzacoala** · 03-25-2012, 05:42 PM

If you want maximum dps, half elf with a rogue dilletante surpasses half orc.

**smithj_2020** · 03-25-2012, 06:29 PM

actually i think with feats like sunder and imp sunder horc pulls ahead, was a discusion lil while back. but anyway heres my horc TR:

Code:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Orc Male
(20 Monk) 
Hit Points: 334
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 16
Will: 21

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    22
Dexterity            16                    18
Constitution         16                    19
Intelligence          6                     8
Wisdom               16                    28
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 13
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 14
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 17
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    31
Bluff                -2                    -1
Concentration         7                    41
Diplomacy            -2                    -1
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -2                    -1
Heal                  3                     9
Hide                  3                     8
Intimidate           -2                    -1
Jump                  3                    20
Listen                3                     9
Move Silently         3                     8
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -2                    -1
Search               -2                    -1
Spot                  3                     9
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                4                     7
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 4 (Monk)


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Orcish Fury I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Eagle Claw Attack
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom III

here are some updated stats:

STR: 38 (16 start, 3 tome, 2 ship, 2 enhance, 3 abashi set, 2 yug, 6 item, 2 rage, 1 exceptional, 1 level)
DEX: 32 (16, 2 tome, 6 item, 2 ship, 4 stance, 2 yug)
CON: 30 (16, 2 tome, 6 item, 2 ship, 2 yug, 2 exceptional, 2 rage, -2 stance)
INT: 12 (8, 2 tome, 2 ship)
WIS: 40 (16, 3 tome, 2 ship, 2 exceptional, 1 exceptional, 2 yug, 5 enhancement, 6 item, 4 levels, -1 brawns)
CHA: 18 ( 8, 6 item, 2 ship, 2 tome)

I think the build is really nice its a good high str, with more than enough heal amp (since i dont intend to tank), with a good wis score and really nice monk dcs;

SF= 50 (10+10{1/2 monk level}+ 5 epic spare hand+10 {alch wraps}+15 {wis bonus})
QP= 35
ToD=35

does awesome btw in all quests even epic, i have 590 hps in Wind III.....stun everything and do really nice damage.....

good luck on build man.

**HLP** · 03-26-2012, 02:55 AM

I think that's just the build I've been looking for, thanks a lot!

**wax_on_wax_off** · 03-26-2012, 04:54 AM

Originally Posted by smithj_2020

STR: 38 (16 start, 3 tome, 2 ship, 2 enhance, 3 abashi set, 2 yug, 6 item, 2 rage, 1 exceptional, 1 level)
DEX: 32 (16, 2 tome, 6 item, 2 ship, 4 stance, 2 yug)
CON: 30 (16, 2 tome, 6 item, 2 ship, 2 yug, 2 exceptional, 2 rage, -2 stance)
INT: 12 (8, 2 tome, 2 ship)
WIS: 40 (16, 3 tome, 2 ship, 2 exceptional, 1 exceptional, 2 yug, 5 enhancement, 6 item, 4 levels, -1 brawns)
CHA: 18 ( 8, 6 item, 2 ship, 2 tome)

I'd love to hear how you got to spend 40 points in character creation ><

To reiterate a poster above, helf>horc.

Half-elf has:
Better AB (unless you don't take power attack enhancements but then DPS is an even bigger difference)
Better DPS except against sneak immune foes in very long fights (only abbot qualifies)
Better tanking ability (monks are often the best tanks in quests if lacking a proper dedicated tank and healing amp really helps here)
More skill points (concentration, balance, UMD, move silently, tumble (1) are great skills for consideration)
Better shining star ability

**Taimasan** · 03-26-2012, 05:16 AM

Good 36 point half-orc build in my sig.

**Wraith_Sarevok** · 03-26-2012, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

I'd love to hear how you got to spend 40 points in character creation ><

To reiterate a poster above, helf>horc.

Half-elf has:
Better AB (unless you don't take power attack enhancements but then DPS is an even bigger difference)
Better DPS except against sneak immune foes in very long fights (only abbot qualifies)
Better tanking ability (monks are often the best tanks in quests if lacking a proper dedicated tank and healing amp really helps here)
More skill points (concentration, balance, UMD, move silently, tumble (1) are great skills for consideration)
Better shining star ability

What are you kidding me?

How does a half-elf have better DPS than a half-orc in ANY build?

You're describing a finishing move called Unbalancing Strike which has to make a successful reflex check in order for all that overblown dilettante +3d6 sneak attack damage to be of any use to you while tanking.

And Unbalancing Strike does nothing to remove fort, which all raid bosses have. It's still going to negate 50% of your sneak attack damage at the minimum on Normal difficulty.

You have to give up a lot of points and multiple gear slots to raise your WIS score high enough to the point that your special attacks can reliably debuff bosses. I'm talking like a DC of 37+ if you don't want to fail 50% of the time against Normal Arraetrikos. Either you'll give up STR, tanking ability, or saves to make that happen. None of which are worth it.

Half-Orc gives you the DPS, this time in reality, without having to give up any of the traits that make you a great tank. 200% healing amp is easily doable with the right gear and any more beyond that becomes overheal. 600+ HP is also doable with the right gear and is plenty for a Monk with all of it's damage reductions.

**wax_on_wax_off** · 03-26-2012, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by Wraith_Sarevok

What are you kidding me?

How does a half-elf have better DPS than a half-orc in ANY build?

You're describing a finishing move called Unbalancing Strike which has to make a successful reflex check in order for all that overblown dilettante +3d6 sneak attack damage to be of any use to you while tanking.

And Unbalancing Strike does nothing to remove fort, which all raid bosses have. It's still going to negate 50% of your sneak attack damage at the minimum on Normal difficulty.

You have to give up a lot of points and multiple gear slots to raise your WIS score high enough to the point that your special attacks can reliably debuff bosses. I'm talking like a DC of 37+ if you don't want to fail 50% of the time against Normal Arraetrikos. Either you'll give up STR, tanking ability, or saves to make that happen. None of which are worth it.

Half-Orc gives you the DPS, this time in reality, without having to give up any of the traits that make you a great tank. 200% healing amp is easily doable with the right gear and any more beyond that becomes overheal. 600+ HP is also doable with the right gear and is plenty for a Monk with all of it's damage reductions.

+15-25% damage for 20 seconds, 5/day isn't lacking in reality, or did you not do your homework? That burst DPS is going to give the halfelf a DPS advantage for quite a period of time, hence my reference to the length of the fight mattering.

A DPS build isn't a tank, it's a DPS build. When you're tanking DPS doesn't matter, all that matters is that you stay alive, hold aggro and minimise resource use. No such thing as overkill on healing amp, each additional source of healing amp gives greater effect than the last (courtesy of multiplicative stacking) and the higher it gets the less resources that are needed to keep you up (read scrolls, bursts, aura, capstone).

In raid situations you won't be a tank, this isn't a tank build and SA is very reliable especially with the numerous options that exist now to debuff fortification (quite possible to get elob to 0% fortification).

The final issue issue is that in my experience all classes except kensei fighters and barbarians will have AB issues at one time or other. If you want to build for easy content then horc is a great choice but when it matters helf will always be better.

**WruntJunior** · 03-26-2012, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

+15-25% damage for 20 seconds, 5/day isn't lacking in reality, or did you not do your homework? That burst DPS is going to give the halfelf a DPS advantage for quite a period of time, hence my reference to the length of the fight mattering.

A DPS build isn't a tank, it's a DPS build. When you're tanking DPS doesn't matter, all that matters is that you stay alive, hold aggro and minimise resource use. No such thing as overkill on healing amp, each additional source of healing amp gives greater effect than the last (courtesy of multiplicative stacking) and the higher it gets the less resources that are needed to keep you up (read scrolls, bursts, aura, capstone).

In raid situations you won't be a tank, this isn't a tank build and SA is very reliable especially with the numerous options that exist now to debuff fortification (quite possible to get elob to 0% fortification).

The final issue issue is that in my experience all classes except kensei fighters and barbarians will have AB issues at one time or other. If you want to build for easy content then horc is a great choice but when it matters helf will always be better.

I'd like to add...having access to damage boost is a HUGE boost to tanking, as it gets your initial aggro rather high.

Also, Wraith, you may want to do some research on races for DPS...only in extremely long fights do half-orcs pull ahead of half-elves on anything other than THF.

That said, while there's nothing WRONG with a half-orc monk, they are not the superior monk race. Half-elves are superior, between healing amp, damage boost, and dilettante (where both cleric and rogue are VERY useful...dependent on if you prefer straight dps or survivability).

**twigzz** · 03-26-2012, 10:45 AM

Originally Posted by smithj_2020

actually i think with feats like sunder and imp sunder horc pulls ahead, was a discusion lil while back. but anyway heres my horc TR:

Code:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Half-Orc Male
(20 Monk) 
Hit Points: 334
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 16
Will: 21

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    22
Dexterity            16                    18
Constitution         16                    19
Intelligence          6                     8
Wisdom               16                    28
Charisma              6                     8

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 13
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 14
+4 Tome of Wisdom used at level 17
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               6                    31
Bluff                -2                    -1
Concentration         7                    41
Diplomacy            -2                    -1
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -2                    -1
Heal                  3                     9
Hide                  3                     8
Intimidate           -2                    -1
Jump                  3                    20
Listen                3                     9
Move Silently         3                     8
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -2                    -1
Search               -2                    -1
Spot                  3                     9
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                4                     7
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 4 (Monk)


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Orcish Fury I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I
Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Eagle Claw Attack
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Adept of Flame
Enhancement: Adept of Rain
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Jump I
Enhancement: Improved Jump II
Enhancement: Improved Tumble I
Enhancement: Improved Tumble II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom III

here are some updated stats:

STR: 38 (16 start, 3 tome, 2 ship, 2 enhance, 3 abashi set, 2 yug, 6 item, 2 rage, 1 exceptional, 1 level)
DEX: 32 (16, 2 tome, 6 item, 2 ship, 4 stance, 2 yug)
CON: 30 (16, 2 tome, 6 item, 2 ship, 2 yug, 2 exceptional, 2 rage, -2 stance)
INT: 12 (8, 2 tome, 2 ship)
WIS: 40 (16, 3 tome, 2 ship, 2 exceptional, 1 exceptional, 2 yug, 5 enhancement, 6 item, 4 levels, -1 brawns)
CHA: 18 ( 8, 6 item, 2 ship, 2 tome)

I think the build is really nice its a good high str, with more than enough heal amp (since i dont intend to tank), with a good wis score and really nice monk dcs;

SF= 50 (10+10{1/2 monk level}+ 5 epic spare hand+10 {alch wraps}+15 {wis bonus})
QP= 35
ToD=35

does awesome btw in all quests even epic, i have 590 hps in Wind III.....stun everything and do really nice damage.....

good luck on build man.

I'd drop a toughness for Imp sunder too. Monks can drop fort on pretty big scale. 25% from dark finisher, 10% from IS and 8% from ID(plus norm destruction). Once they get the blasting chime working for monks we'll be putting the hurt on constructs.

I have a HO dark monk now, next life defin going HE for sure.

**smithj_2020** · 03-26-2012, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

I'd love to hear how you got to spend 40 points in character creation ><

To reiterate a poster above, helf>horc.

Half-elf has:
Better AB (unless you don't take power attack enhancements but then DPS is an even bigger difference)
Better DPS except against sneak immune foes in very long fights (only abbot qualifies)
Better tanking ability (monks are often the best tanks in quests if lacking a proper dedicated tank and healing amp really helps here)
More skill points (concentration, balance, UMD, move silently, tumble (1) are great skills for consideration)
Better shining star ability

Seriuously check the planner, sorry I hit 8 instead of 6....

I still don't believe a Helf out dps a Horc, I believe there was a thread a while bal that after versatility boost and at the end Horc pulls ahead slightly. But to each his own

**dudulinka** · 03-26-2012, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by smithj_2020

Seriuously check the planner, sorry I hit 8 instead of 6....

I still don't believe a Helf out dps a Horc, I believe there was a thread a while bal that after versatility boost and at the end Horc pulls ahead slightly. But to each his own

U can always do the math...
What a helf get is the sweet extra 3d6 sneak dmg and the human versatility (25% more dmg which also increase the sneak dmg) for 100 sec between rests.... what u got from the horc is 1-2 more dmg and attack from str (depends on build) and 3 dmg from improved power attack (which also reduce the attack by 3, dont forget about this). Also the helf got a little more healing amplification. But about the dmg just compare 3d6 bonus sneak dmg + 25% boost with the 4-5 bonus dmg of the horc which will cause your attack 1-2 lower then the helf. So helf got bigger dmg and more attack (when power attack is active). The only way a horc can outdps helf is on 100% fort target and if the helf dont activate the 25% dmg boost...

**WruntJunior** · 03-26-2012, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by smithj_2020

Seriuously check the planner, sorry I hit 8 instead of 6....

I still don't believe a Helf out dps a Horc, I believe there was a thread a while bal that after versatility boost and at the end Horc pulls ahead slightly. But to each his own

If the boss can be kept at 50% fort or lower (reasonable for raids on elite or epic, but not undead) half-orcs will never catch up....if fort is much above it, half-orcs will catch up given enough time.

As the only fight currently where half-orcs will really catch up is elite abbot (they can also catch up in bad runs of eLoB, but as long as you have a debuffer, they won't...if the monk is a dark monk, it gets even wider, as Touch of Despair is rather nice in that fight)...for all intents and purposes, half-elves are superior dps. Against trash, the 3d6 extra damage is even more noticeable, due to stunning.

The reasoning behind this is quite simple: a max-dps half-orc gets 5 damage from his race (1 from 2 higher starting strength, 1 from 2 str enhancements, and 3 from power attack); a max-dps half-elf get ~10.5 damage from his race (3d6 sneak attack damage averages to 10.5) with damage boost 4 on top. As long as fortification is held at 50%, the half-elf is getting just over 5 damage a swing from sneak attack damage, same as the half-orc....but then they have damage boost to throw them past the half-orc. If fortification goes much lower, half-elves take a clear lead faster; if fortification goes much higher, half-orcs take a clear lead at some point after damage boost runs out.

As an additional point, with both races doing their maximum dps, a half-elf will have 1 higher to-hit due to the 3 PA enhancements that half-orcs get (which cancel out their +2 to-hit from 3 higher strength, assuming best circumstances for the half-orc being ahead with an even amount of strength where human adaptability puts the half-elf at an odd strength).

**wax_on_wax_off** · 03-26-2012, 05:45 PM

Particularly vs any stunnable mob that 10.5 SA becomes 15.75 SA.

**Carpone** · 03-26-2012, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

Particularly vs any stunnable mob that 10.5 SA becomes 15.75 SA.

At least pick a scenario where sustained DPS matters, like a raid boss. Trash mobs don't live long enough to matter.

Dark monk builds I consider raid worthy:

12 monk/7 fighter/1 ranger -- 25% haste boost, sprint boost (you can never run too fast), 1 favored enemy.

12 monk/6 fighter/2 paladin -- 20% haste boost and superb saves from Divine Grace.

9 monk/6 fighter/5 ranger -- 20% haste boost, sprint boost, two favored enemies (outsider and construct) and Ram's Might.

Go with Kensei I if you want a more tactics focused toon, or Stalwart Defender I if you want to be more tankish.

**Wraith_Sarevok** · 03-26-2012, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by wax_on_wax_off

A DPS build isn't a tank, it's a DPS build. When you're tanking DPS doesn't matter, all that matters is that you stay alive, hold aggro and minimise resource use. No such thing as overkill on healing amp, each additional source of healing amp gives greater effect than the last (courtesy of multiplicative stacking) and the higher it gets the less resources that are needed to keep you up (read scrolls, bursts, aura, capstone).

In raid situations you won't be a tank, this isn't a tank build and SA is very reliable especially with the numerous options that exist now to debuff fortification (quite possible to get elob to 0% fortification).

The final issue issue is that in my experience all classes except kensei fighters and barbarians will have AB issues at one time or other. If you want to build for easy content then horc is a great choice but when it matters helf will always be better.

Lolz that's a good one.

Come watch my max DPS Horc barbarian on Khyber tank the you-name-it toughest bosses in the game. And he does it with spammed Supreme Cleaves and double frenzy on. That's the most self-DPS you can deal to yourself while still having the highest DPS in the game and STILL being an excellent tank.

Classes that can make great tanks and go without saying are Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Monks, and Favored Souls. Only Rogues and Rangers are strictly DPS-only classes simply because they can't acquire the HP and damage resistance needed to make great tanks. Yet there are people out there challenging the norm every day building tempest tanks for example.

If your monk build can't maintank any raid in the game on any difficulty in the game, then it's a poor monk build. If you don't have DPS, you can't hold aggro without massive boosts to hate via gear and such, eating up slots that could go towards more useful things like damage, HP, and saves. Having DPS is also highly recommended for a raid tank because it allows you to contribute more damage to the boss and thus end the raid faster.

Your fort claims are unrealistic and refer to guild runs or with people you know. In PuGs, not everyone carries all the fort debuffs in the game on them and not everyone who carries will remember to use it. That's why I only rely on my own fort debuffs for 100% reliable accurate damage. Quite simply, it's impractical to assume that a boss like the LoB will be debuffed to 0% fort every single time or even the majority of the time. Possible does not equal Practical.

**WruntJunior** · 03-26-2012, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Wraith_Sarevok

Lolz that's a good one.

Come watch my max DPS Horc barbarian on Khyber tank the you-name-it toughest bosses in the game. And he does it with spammed Supreme Cleaves and double frenzy on. That's the most self-DPS you can deal to yourself while still having the highest DPS in the game and STILL being an excellent tank.

Classes that can make great tanks and go without saying are Fighters, Barbarians, Paladins, Monks, and Favored Souls. Only Rogues and Rangers are strictly DPS-only classes simply because they can't acquire the HP and damage resistance needed to make great tanks. Yet there are people out there challenging the norm every day building tempest tanks for example.

If your monk build can't maintank any raid in the game on any difficulty in the game, then it's a poor monk build. If you don't have DPS, you can't hold aggro without massive boosts to hate via gear and such, eating up slots that could go towards more useful things like damage, HP, and saves. Having DPS is also highly recommended for a raid tank because it allows you to contribute more damage to the boss and thus end the raid faster.

Your fort claims are unrealistic and refer to guild runs or with people you know. In PuGs, not everyone carries all the fort debuffs in the game on them and not everyone who carries will remember to use it. That's why I only rely on my own fort debuffs for 100% reliable accurate damage. Quite simply, it's impractical to assume that a boss like the LoB will be debuffed to 0% fort every single time or even the majority of the time. Possible does not equal Practical.

If you were tanking something on your half-orc barbarian with me healing you, and you started spamming supreme cleave, I would let you die. Doing things that make it HARDER for the healer to keep you alive when you're already trying to tank on a self-damaging class that doesn't have any significant damage mitigation (and yes, up to 9/- dr is insignificant) is asking to die. Also, let me know how many pug LoBs you run, or really any pug above hard difficulty on pretty much any raid without at least a few people you know. I bet the number is pretty low...and considering that it's only on elite or epic that fort is high enough to need debuffing in addition to improved sunder (and possibly destruction)....you're almost guaranteed to have someone who can lower fort in raids where fort is high enough to matter.

**Irongutz2000** · 03-26-2012, 06:28 PM

GTG with helf onn this one.......the only way horcs r better than other races is at two handed fighting.....the only reason to go horc onn a twfer is to be ugly.

20%healing amp
no minuses to int
damage boost
sneak attack
human stat increases

= a much better balance, and we all know monks need balance or they don't work.

**Wraith_Sarevok** · 03-26-2012, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by WruntJunior

If you were tanking something on your half-orc barbarian with me healing you, and you started spamming supreme cleave, I would let you die. Doing things that make it HARDER for the healer to keep you alive when you're already trying to tank on a self-damaging class that doesn't have any significant damage mitigation (and yes, up to 9/- dr is insignificant) is asking to die. Also, let me know how many pug LoBs you run, or really any pug above hard difficulty on pretty much any raid without at least a few people you know. I bet the number is pretty low...and considering that it's only on elite or epic that fort is high enough to need debuffing in addition to improved sunder (and possibly destruction)....you're almost guaranteed to have someone who can lower fort in raids where fort is high enough to matter.

Fact is I do and the healers don't even notice. The self-DPS of supreme cleave is ~nil compared to Horoth's 60 damage strikes and such. They're too busy watching my HP drop in gobs to notice the minor loss from supreme cleave. I'm willing to bet you wouldn't see it either. And if you stopped healing me and I died, that just makes you look like the bad healer, not me the bad tank. I guarantee everyone in the raid will blame the healers first. If you don't want to heal, get off that class and stop wasting other people's raid time.

9 DR isn't insignificant. It takes the edge off attacks from any raid boss. Just because it's a lower number than 20% doesn't make it useless. Play a barb from 1-20 and you'll see what I mean. MUCH less damage taken from monsters everywhere compared to when I tried an equivalent Kensai with 0 DR. Less damage taken = more virtual HP and less healing needed.

Almost every raid I run is PuGged. I don't get that many PuG LoB's only because I can't find many in the LFM and I don't like to lead without a mic. Doesn't mean I'm scared of PuGs. I've been using them ever since I started playing and we have a relationship. If I want a Martial Cell and there's an LoB filling in the LFM, I join it. I don't care who is leading as long as we can get the job done.

**WruntJunior** · 03-26-2012, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by Wraith_Sarevok

Fact is I do and the healers don't even notice. The self-DPS of supreme cleave is ~nil compared to Horoth's 60 damage strikes and such. They're too busy watching my HP drop in gobs to notice the minor loss from supreme cleave. I'm willing to bet you wouldn't see it either. And if you stopped healing me and I died, that just makes you look like the bad healer, not me the bad tank. I guarantee everyone in the raid will blame the healers first. If you don't want to heal, get off that class and stop wasting other people's raid time.

9 DR isn't insignificant. It takes the edge off attacks from any raid boss. Just because it's a lower number than 20% doesn't make it useless. Play a barb from 1-20 and you'll see what I mean. MUCH less damage taken from monsters everywhere compared to when I tried an equivalent Kensai with 0 DR. Less damage taken = more virtual HP and less healing needed.

Almost every raid I run is PuGged. I don't get that many PuG LoB's only because I can't find many in the LFM and I don't like to lead without a mic. Doesn't mean I'm scared of PuGs. I've been using them ever since I started playing and we have a relationship. If I want a Martial Cell and there's an LoB filling in the LFM, I join it. I don't care who is leading as long as we can get the job done.

9 dr is useful for trash while leveling. Situations where you need to tank, it's useless.

I think you should REALLY play a healer, will teach you a lot about tanks.

Thread: Looking for Horc, dark, 36 point monk, lots of DPS

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Looking for Horc, dark, 36 point monk, lots of DPS

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