Clerics need some love

[Matuse]

1) DC goes uup

Yes...

2) About equal to a FvS

Which can be a bit of a drawback when you want that 4th 8th level spell.

3) Can't argue here

DC doesn't matter if you can't break their SR.

4) Fairly irrelevant as the wis increase will offset some of it.

This is just looney. A Cleric going from 18-20 gets 195 SP. +2 Wis at level 18 (not 20, you have 2 levels of monk) gives 27 SP. That's a major drop-off.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but in the game where every single solitary point of DC must be wrenched out, that 1 point can be a significant increase.

And that same single solitary point is needed in your SR, where you're losing 2 points.

[DeathsApprentice]

There are 4 elements to spellcasting.

1) Spell DC
2) Number of known spells
3) Spell Penetration
4) Spell points

Splashing monk hurts 3 of those elements, and very VERY mildly increases one of them.

You are making yourself a worse caster by splashing monk. The decision is whether or not you value the 2 combat feats, the evasion, and the wis mod to AC or not.

1) Yes...

2) Which can be a bit of a drawback when you want that 4th 8th level spell.

3) DC doesn't matter if you can't break their SR.

4) This is just looney. A Cleric going from 18-20 gets 195 SP. +2 Wis at level 18 (not 20, you have 2 levels of monk) gives 27 SP. That's a major drop-off.

And that same single solitary point is needed in your SR, where you're losing 2 points.

Actually, you are highlighting the drawback a bit too much.

1) The DC goes up. This is a good thing.

2) You lose 1 lvl 8 spell and 1 lvl 9 spell. And since I already have all the spells I want, I don't find this to be very restrictive. You don't need 2 levels in monk for the stance, just 1.

3) This is where you are potentially wrong. A lot of clerics (including mine) take Toughness. Toughness is a monk bonus feat. By rearranging where I place my feats, I can take Spell Penetration or Greater Spell Penetration. Giving me a net gain of 1 caster level to beat SR.

4) Splashing 1 level of monk costs me 100sp. With a torc/conc-opp the 100sp is peanuts. I could even take Mental toughness as an extra feat (see 3) and that nets me 100 extra sp on top of the extra sp for the +2 wisdom.

So instead of losing in 3 areas of spellcasting for a gain in 1. I'm gaining in 2 areas and losing in 2. And, to me at least, the gains outweigh the losses, thus making me a better caster.

And as the icing on the cake, I even get my wisdom to my AC and a free stunning fist feat. My biggest concern is finding decent kamas.

If I splash a level of wizard, I get +20% Force and Fire damage, an equal amount of spell points (assuming I can get my Int up to 20, otherwise a trivial loss) and bonus feat (for Spell penetration). Again, a gain in 1 area (SR) for a loss in 1 (spells) and +20% damage. I'd say that makes me a better caster.

[Aashrym]

I should have the same opportunity to land my weaker spells as an arcane.

You do. They are called sorcerers, bards, and artificers. Your DC's are not far behind a wizard to start with, are ahead of artificers by a fair bit, and on par with sorcerers and bard casters.

As a matter of fact all you need to do is follow the TR train and grab 3 sorc past lives for 3 more DC's on implosion as opposed to the lack of ability to do the same thing with wiz/sorc instant death spells. Something bards and artificers do not even possess when you bring up the bonus to blade barrier for artificers.

You also have more healing than any other class, higher hit points than other classes that might be considered casters other than FvS, better armor options than any of those other classes for when it does matter, and a wide variety of melee buffs not available to many of those classes either.

We just saw a WIS alchemical bonus added to be available but not INT or CHA.

Going for DC's on a sorc or archmage means giving up SP self healing or else going WF and giving up casting stat on a sorc and enhancements for the casting stat on an archmage. Archmages are also limited in how many schools they actually have DC bonuses in. Bards are restricted to comparative DC's in a single school. Artificers have lower DC's in all schools.

Sorc's have no DC advantages over clerics at all so if they can make the DC's so can you, especially if they can do it by giving up casting stat in the race adjustments and race enhancements, and not having the advantage of alchemical CHA. You actually have better DC's than most sorcs.

This game is not balanced around wizard DC's. This is pretty obvious by the number of other effective casters in all content. Just sayin'.

[Matuse]

If I splash a level of wizard, I get +20% Force and Fire damage, an equal amount of spell points (assuming I can get my Int up to 20, otherwise a trivial loss) and bonus feat (for Spell penetration). Again, a gain in 1 area (SR) for a loss in 1 (spells) and +20% damage. I'd say that makes me a better caster.

If you splash 20 levels of Favored Soul, you get +30% Force and Fire damage, vastly MORE spellpoints, and all fear-susceptible enemies give you an effective +2 DC and +2 Spell Pen that stacks with everything.

Taking levels of Monk still makes you a worse caster, and 1 extra point of DC isn't going to make up for what you lose.

Give clerics "love" is really as simple as implementing Domains. They don't need anything else. Domains wouldn't even be very hard to do. Just tack on a class feat that you select at level 1 like the FvS faith feats, and as you level up, bonus feats are given out that supply access to the appropriate domain spells.

[Aashrym]

Give clerics "love" is really as simple as implementing Domains. They don't need anything else. Domains wouldn't even be very hard to do. Just tack on a class feat that you select at level 1 like the FvS faith feats, and as you level up, bonus feats are given out that supply access to the appropriate domain spells.

This would be a much better suggestion to work on. Look for domains and a more caster oriented PrE.

[DeathsApprentice]

We just saw a WIS alchemical bonus added to be available but not INT or CHA.

Hmmm, I'll need to look into the cannith raids then. Thanks for the info.

[DeathsApprentice]

If you splash 20 levels of Favored Soul, you get +30% Force and Fire damage, vastly MORE spellpoints, and all fear-susceptible enemies give you an effective +2 DC and +2 Spell Pen that stacks with everything.

Taking levels of Monk still makes you a worse caster, and 1 extra point of DC isn't going to make up for what you lose.

Give clerics "love" is really as simple as implementing Domains. They don't need anything else. Domains wouldn't even be very hard to do. Just tack on a class feat that you select at level 1 like the FvS faith feats, and as you level up, bonus feats are given out that supply access to the appropriate domain spells.

I'm not going to argue about implementing domains, I'd like to see those as well. My original idea was about the capstone: and I still feel that the current capstone is not worth taking the 20th level of cleric for. +2 wisdom would make me hesitate to splash, the current does not.

About the FvS comment: I have a capped and TR'ed FvS. I know how effective they are. I'd like my cleric to be just as powerful and not just as a healbot.