Arcane Archer love

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

right now the archers have been left in the dust completely by artificers
AA the once best PrE for ranged combat has lost its shine but more importantly its dues

there are many things that artificer's get that an AA could only dream of

so lets look at AA's completely and see what they could do to upgrade them and how to balance them


AA imbues
weak ones include Force Burst, terror, and Flaming burst
i personally use acid imbue til about the time i get myself slaying imbue
terror/flaming/force burst are all in between these so i suggest they get up'd a lot
force blast for T4, wheras the terror arrows get the PK affect that well Terror has now (the DC)
flaming burst truly needs an overview though as i think that force the T1 is better
i think an imbue that is dependant on base class should be here
cleric/fvs get Imbue Light 1d6 light dmg and 3d6 vs undead
Fighter/barb get bleeding arrows?
bard gets imbue screaming
rogue gets imbue deceptive?

clearly i havn't figured em all out, but thats the idea look at a portion of AA and get it fixed

oh and let us start with +2 and advance to +6 arrows

[RobbinB]

I've posted this idea before, but the imbues should be revamped into full lines (force, acid, fire, dark).

Force line would be granted free with AA 1-3 and would be force/force burst/force blast with ghost touch. Lowest damage but works against pretty much anything and everything.

Fire line: high damage against anything susceptible to fire, maximal damage against cold critters. Secondary effects could be immolation/incineration/firestorm/whatever...

Acid line: moderate to high damage (better than force) against anything susceptible to acid. Destruction property at some point, perhaps stone prison or earthgrab at AA III or for epic enhancements.

Dark line: high damage against all living things as well as some cool secondary effects that allow saves (fear, cursespewing, pk). Could be useless for fighting undead and constructs, but that's where you would fall back on your force line.

Could make only one line available to an arcane archer or could open multiple paths, but obviously investing in more than one path would cost additional ap. If multiple paths are possible then there could be new epic enhancements contingent on having certain combos. Eg. tier 3 in both acid/fire opens an epic enhancement that gives a 2% chance of magma surge being cast on every shot.

(Personally, I'd like to see the current 500 pt damage arrow be moved to DWsnipers in some form or another. Keep the highest tier dark effect as pk with a save, putting in a alternative damage amount only for red and purple names.)

[Talias006]

You do understand that PK is an Illusion spell, not a Necromancy spell?
The part of PK that kills is using the targets worst fears against them, effectually snuffing out their will to live.

If they disbelieve the primary effect, the secondary effect of PK is a damage spell, which is usually negligible for DDO.
Illusory dark is not the same as Negative Energy dark.

[Delssar]

I know I myself am not good at searching out other threads but Im pretty sure theres already one on THIS topic in the first 5 pages or so

[Brennie]

I know I myself am not good at searching out other threads but Im pretty sure theres already one on THIS topic in the first 5 pages or so

This Thread: Completely Offtopic

@ Op - I agree, Arcane Archer needs to be reworked. however, it woudl be difficult to balance it with Ranged combat being 20 second of completely overpoweredness and 100 seconds of not-even-worth-using as it is right now. Make AA too good, and manyshot becomes gamebreaking. Leaves it as is, and Ranged Combat is notoriously gimpy when shooting only 1 arrow at one enemy at a time. Bow-based combat needs to be reworked as a whole, to make it more of a viable all-the-time combat style.

However, I don't like the "split lines" idea presented later... AA is a singular prestige, and should be a complete set of utility tools or stacking bonuses at 20 (Note that Archmage deviates from this formula, but for good reason). Besides which, any static DC will either be decried as "way too powerful" or "useless" (as the PK is right now), and the loss of Slayer Arrrows would ultimately cripple the prE.

I'd like to see something like:

• AA1 - Gain Flaming Imbue for 10sp (1d6 fire damage per hit) / Summon +2 returning arrows/Truestrike w/ stacking seeker +10 (Or higher or lower as appropriate... Truestike is very lackluster at the moment).

• AA2 - Gain Frost Imbue / +3 Arrows / All imbues cost 15 sp / All Imbues gain "burst" effect (2d10 for x3, 3d10 for x4, etc)

• AA3 - Gain Acid Imbue / +4 Arrows / All imbues cost 20 sp / All Imbues gain "blast" effect (4d6 damage on natural 20s ... this seems kind of weak, could be buffed up maybe?)

• AA4 - Gain Shock Imbue / +5 Arrows / All imbues cost 25 sp / All imbues gain "Special quality" (Flame = something... does fire *have* any non-damage-type effects? Perhaps a Minor DoT or Blindness effect, Frost = 3% chance of Freezing Ice, Acid = 3% chance of Earthgrab or Stone Prison, Shock = 15% chance to proc 5 second non-damage-breakable Dazed effect, Force = Ghost touch + 7% chance of Trip effect. DCs on all effects should be 10 + character level + something-or-other. The aim shoud lbe mid 30s to 40 DC by level 20)

• AA5 - Gain Force Imbue / +6 arrows / All imbues cost 30 sp / All imbues gain elementally-appropriate "strike" ability, with a decently high proc rate and average damage-per-attack of 15-25, to keep approximately the same DPA ratio as the current slayer arrow (On a normal longbow, all other imbue effect give a DPA bonus of 5.3, while the current Slayer Arrow gives a DPA of 25, so the strike ability would have to fill the gap at approximately 19.7 damage per attack)

Obviously this is just spitballing. Too much power/too little power/not enough diversity could all easily be addressed. Lack of untyped damage would probably be considered a loss, but equatable DPA and additional "bonus" feature should help shore up the difference, while Force acts as the next-best-thing.

Other thoughts are the diminishing returns of AA 2 and 3, since burst and blast add significantly less DPA then AA 1 and AA 5. these effects could be beefed up, turned into DoT effects, or just plain swapped out for extra +1d6 damage + minor bonus effect. AA 4 and 5 benefits could be swapped too, of course, depending on which seems more like the End Goal... and level 18 or 20 is VERY late to get a Ghost Touch imbue, however Force is easily the least resisted element, and thus should probably be the "End Goal" when all effects are equalized.

I would also like to see imbues be swappable - once activated, imbues can be switched at no cost. Or, alternately, the cost of imbues goes up, and activating one imbue unlocks swapping between all imbues. if necessary, implement a short cooldown between swaps. I would also LOVE to see Imbues become undispellable, but i figure thats probably a pipe dream :P

[ssgcmwatson]

@ Op - I agree, Arcane Archer needs to be reworked. however, it woudl be difficult to balance it with Ranged combat being 20 second of completely overpoweredness and 100 seconds of not-even-worth-using as it is right now. Make AA too good, and manyshot becomes gamebreaking. Leaves it as is, and Ranged Combat is notoriously gimpy when shooting only 1 arrow at one enemy at a time. Bow-based combat needs to be reworked as a whole, to make it more of a viable all-the-time combat style.

I think one of the easiest ways to improve ranged combat would be something along the lines of making Manyshot a stance that breaks as soon as you move.

[krackythehoodedone]

Arties dont have it all their own way you know.

Your top Ranged Ranger players like Glenalth. Your maxxed out Helves Angel and Monkcher builds are all outdoing Artificers in terms of Ranged DPS.

Honestly it is possible to make an effective non Arti ranged build. However it isnt easy and it takes time and skill.

On the other hand we all know big changes are on the way soon so ?

PS please Devs dont kill Crit rage

[Aesop]

I would like to see each tier have some sort of SLA attached to it .


you have several aspects of this PrE

Returning Arrows +1-+5
Imbues
True Strike clicky
Spell Point Buff

Turn True Strike into an SLA and go from there

and yeah you can modify the rest out as well.

I could see the pinnacle ability being Hail of Arrows


I could see Elemental Arrows being a Branch on the tree in which the element could be chosen from a selection menu like resist energy has.

AA Elemental Arrows
Tier 1: Elemental Touch (1d4)
Tier 2: Elemental (1d6)
Tier 3: Elemental Burst (1d6+2d10) (Crit)
Tier 4: Elemental Blast (1d6+2d10+4d6) (Vorpal)
Tier 5: Elemental Strike (20d6) (%)

If you want a more unique aspect though then like what we have now Acid could be the DoT, Lightning could have a Stun chance, Cold could have a Slow property and Fire could be a small AoE.

Back to Hail of Arrows. It could fire a cone of arrows and have a short duration like 10 sec or something with an extended cooldown.

SLAs could be like

1. True Strike
2. See Invisible
3. Sniper Shot
4. Elemental Weapons
5. Hail of Arrows

and other stuffs that I'm not going to think about now

Aesop

[licho]

A couple of thoughts:

Its not exacly as the AA is weak but that ranged (bow) combat is weak.
The AA is strong enought that every Bow build has it. In the same way as every cookie cutter bow build now is Monk6/Ranger6 Wis HE.
And IMO this is the problem.
I wish the game allow to build lets say Kensai/Assasin of any race (or mix of this) which will be no worse than AA.
WHat is problem with AA design is that its top bloomer. Once you get slaying arrow its ok, but before its horrible.

The other misconception is Ranger = Ranged. Its not like Rangers (or AA) must be the best archers.
Rangers are not about pew-pew, the class is about FE, survivalability, some party utylity. (sure now this party is no existing, but thats the class isssue).
If you want supperior DPS for any style you should try Fighters/Barbarians.

In the same way there is assumption that ever bow build should have something of ranger (6 for best) since there is so many feats to make bow fighting viable that you need either ranger or fighter (or both for best effect, Monk also works)

I wish the bow fighting was as much viable to any class as is 2hf and 2wf.
Of course it can do do like 80% of dmg with same feat investment (range is power) but make it viable.

WHich leads to get rid of Bow Strenght feat, which was designed with screwing nocasters in mind. Everyone can swing the greataxe, but there is some mystical knowledge attached to bow that you need 4 other feats to make it count.

So first there should be done something with Bowmastering in general which means:
- Increase the attack/reload speed by 20%, scaling with BAB progression.
Remove Ranger ranged capstone (give some more ranger in general ). Remove Rapid Shot as it is.
- Remove Bow Strenght. Make it granted as soon as you are proficient with the bows. Give Rangers PBS at lv1 so they dont be sad.
- Change Rapid SHot to grant a doubleshot equal to Dex score. MAke it stance, taking no effect while manyshoting or 10k star. (one or another at given time) and while moving. (no more kitting, hell yeah)
- Polishing: This will be a time to re-evaluate Manyshot. Add some no magical feats for kensai (liek hail of arrow, pin, greatbow). And when it comes to it, some edge for precise shot. (like concelment reduction, or fortification bypass)

Note that will make Rapid Shot useless for xbow users (but they will benefit from the efect anyway). So we will have a lines: rapid shot -> manyshot for bows, repeaters + rapid reload for xbows. PBS->Precise->Imp precise for all.

This way the archery will be generally more avaiable, and there will be a point to give your cleric/bard/rogue a bow.

And after that we can think about Prestiges.
And first i would count how much dps pre exacly gives. For example for Assasin its just 3d6 SA. And free vorpal (lets say its +10 on each hit) and assasination (again hard to mesure). So it will like 13-30 extra dmg per hit + some specials.

As for ideas:

Giving arrows scaling from +1 to +6 is good idea. This what single artificers spell does. Also top end bow will anyway have +5/+6 enhancement.

Giving the shots a elemental line is quite interesting, and i would agree with that.
Just make sure to not kick beyound +30 dmg. And the force one should be one dice below (like +1d4...) since force is universal.
There is also the option to make all elements avaiable at the beging and just gaining power with the levels.

As for the power of this:
+3.5 from elemental 1d6
+5.5 from burst
+3 from blast
+10 from strike one.
And thats it, is already +22 dmg just here. And also you has some freedom with bow selection. (like your 1+ banisher will still be like +6) I dont think we need much more from AA. Sure some PrE may generate better dmg (like Kensai/Barbarians) but thats good. I see nothing wrong with AA/Deepwood/Kensai being equal good ranged option.

Now specials, one you need to hit. (becouse button smashing is fun)
- True strike, i would make it litteral. Give it 4min cld, but make it strike true (natural 20). Sure it will be powerful and can isntakill someone, but arcanes can do the same. So what the problem? And in avarage 20min run you can fire 5 of this so no biggie.
- Explosive arrow, single shot (cld 60sec) which creates a fireball effect with choosen element for 1d6/lv dmg. Not as powerful (probably no space for elemental enhancement) but can be handy for bat clearing.
- Charged Shot, single shot (cld 60sec) which on hit triggers the cc Effect (several to choose from) with DC=10+ranger level + wis mod (easy to reach 35). You need to have right dmg imbue on.
(All three should have a little longer/different animation to balance dps)

I value active skills high, since they are more demanding than just static % chance to trigger effect. Its player decision (and skill) when to use CC (and on whom) or use the true strike.
This will generate the situacion when player with quest knowledge, good reflex, and some mastery with smashing buttons will perform much better than somehow with just autoattack on.

Sidenote:
I see nothing wrong with AA do not being top ranged toons. Everytime there will someone best, happens. It may be Kensai or FB.

The problem with arties vs rangers is what they bring to party beside pew-pew.
Arties have also runearm, and BB. And buffs for everyone. And great UMD.
In the same time AA brings... fom.

Why i hate meta and want to nerf (or kill) AA ?
Becouse Meta blocks the builds from no real reason, its just a result of coding, and some of decission of devs (not the one they are proud of). Problem with AA being the only way (or the right one) to build archer you need to be HE (elves are gimped so better avoid, Humans dont really gives anything above HE), and if you are in mood for halfing/dwarf/WF you just cant.

[Doxmaster]

A couple of thoughs:

What.

[Brennie]

Aesop, your idea is clean and awesome. Having abilities to spam via SLAs, similar to the trip/sunder/stunning blow etc. spam of melees would be kinda fun Pew pew truestrike pew pew fireball pew pew holdmonsterarrow!

I agree with you Licho, Ranged as a whole needs an overhaul. Manyshot needs to be seriously toned down, so that it is a definite boost to ranged characters (Whether as a stance, toggle, passive or clicky power) without being something that a character with zero range focus (Dex dumpstat, no ranged gear ranger 11, or Fighter with an extra feat lying around) actually benefits from significantly. However, i would likd to see Ranged combat tied a lot less to the Dex stat, since it unduly penalizes anyone going the Zen Archery route. Infact, I'd really like to see the dex needed for IPS dropped down to atleast the same level as GTWF OR become "Requirements 19 dex OR Zen archery + 19 wisdom". I honestly got a bit lost in the rest of your post >_>

Last night I was mulling over the AA idea I proposed, and I think I've fine tuned it a bit. More opinions welcome!

Brennie's Arcane Archer:

• AA1: Fire and Frost Imbues / +2 arrows / Imbues cost 20 sp and do 1d6 damage / +1 to DCs / Truestrike (+20 to hit, 15-30 second cooldown)

• AA2: Acid and Shock Imbues / +3 Arrows / Imbues cost 40 sp and do 1d8 damage / Imbues gain Minor Secondary Effect / +1 to DCs / Seeker Arrow (Truestrike gains +10 seeker and "homes in" giving no miss chance against moving enemies, but still requiring a "to hit" roll)

• AA3: Force and Sonic Imbues / +4 Arrows / Imbues cost 60 sp and do 1d8 + burst (2d10 for x3, 3d10 for x4, etc) / Imbues gain Bonus Damage Effect / +1 to DCs / Phase Arrow (Truestrike arrow ignores concealment and incorporeal, and cannot miss. as per Magic Missle effects)

• AA4: Negative and Light Imbues / +5 Arrows / Imbues cost 80 sp and do 2d6 + burst damage / Imbues gain Major Secondary Effect / +1 to DCs / Hail of Arrows (Shortish-range cone attack infront of archer, 1-2 minute cooldown. Affected by IPS as applicable, but not manyshot/10k stars)

• AA5: Untyped Imbue / +6 Arrows / Imbues cost 100 sp and do 2d6 + burst + 400 damage on vorpal strikes / +1 DCs / Arrow of Death (Truestrike gains Vorpal + Banishing + Disruption + Smiting effect, without the bonus damage ie on a Confirmed vorpal attack while using Truestrike, any enemy under 1000 HP dies instantly. This effect should be checked *after* damage is applied.)

Minor Secondary Effects (All effects have a DC of 10 + character level + relevant DC bonus from AA tiers):

• Fire - 15% chance of Melt Armor (Sunder) effect. Fort save negates.

• Frost - 5% chance of Arctic Chill (Slow) effect. Fort save negates.

• Acid - 5% chance of Sinkhole (Entangle) effect. Reflex negates, Strength checks every 2 seconds to break free.

• Shock - 25% chance Dazed effect (As per electric loop - breaks on further damage). Fort (Will?) negates.

• Force - Ghost Touch

• Sonic - On hit Deafened. Fort negates.

• Negative - 50% chance of Fear (Or 15% for Ray of Enfeeblement?). Will downgrades to Shaken effect. Fear immunity blocks.

• Light - On hit Major Dazzled (-2 to attacks, skills, saves, -10 to search/spot checks. I just made this up to simulate the "Shaken" effect). Fort save downgrades to Dazzled (-1 to attack rolls, search and spot checks)

• Untyped - 10% chance of Rust (-1 to AC/-1 to attack, stacking up to -5)

Major Secondary Effects (All effects have a dc of 10 + character level + bonus from AA tiers):

• Fire - 25% chance of Heat Exhaustion (as per Exhaustion). Fort downgrades to fatigue

• Frost - 5% chance of Lesser Freezing Ice. Fort (Reflex?) Negates

• Acid - 5% Chance of Flesh to Stone (As per greater Stone Prison). Fort Negates.

• Shock - 15% chance of Gale (As per Trip). Reflex negates.

• Force - 5% chance of Force Cage (As per Hold Monster but with purples circles instead of blue ^_^). Reflex negates.

• Sonic - 5% chance of non-daming Soundburst (AoE low duration stun effect). Fort negates.

• Negative - On vorpal hit does 1d4 negative levels. Will (?) Negates. Stacks with Enervation from items(?)

• Light - 10% Chance of Blind. Fort negates.

• Untyped - Rust gains -2% fortification, stacking to -10%. Same save applies.

Bonus Damage:

• Fire - 5% chance for small AoE dealing (character level/2) * d6 damage. Reflex for half.

• Frost - Frostbite DoT, deals no initial damage, deal 1d6 for first 2 tics, 2d6 for next 3 tics, 3d6 for next 4 tics, 4d6 for next 5 tics.

• Acid - Acid DoT. Deals 1d2 initial tick and 1d6 each remaining tic.

• Shock - 10% chance of 5d6 Electric Loop. Reflex for half, Will to negate Stun.

• Force - 5% chance to cast Magic Missle at current target per attack. Caster level = character level. Noe that multiple arrows per attack should still count as 1 attack.

• Sonic - Echo. 10% chance to deal 5d6 sonic damage 5seconds after proc. This effect "stacks" (IE the timer is not reset upon further attacks).

• Negative - Deals 1 point of stat drain to a random stat per hit. This is blocked by deathward/stat drain immunity.

• Light - 10% Chance of 2d6 light DoT. Duration 30 seconds, stacks up to 3 (5?) times.

• Untyped - 0.1% chance of 200d6+300 untyped damage (average of 1000 damage per proc, average damage per attack of 1)

Alternatives/Issues/Thought:

1. "Untyped" could become "prismatic imbue", which would randomly use any of the existing imbues or untyped (untyped might ONLY be available through prismatic imbue, and then only at a 1/7th chance) on a per-arrow basis. This might be a net loss, though, since using lots of random elements means you are routinely going to be resisted for some of them. Untyped damage might also need to be beefed up a bit, since it wouldn't have an "always on" imbue option, and would be at best a 1/7 proc chance.
2. Giving untyped damage on a per-hit basis may be stupidly overpowered, even if the overally damage-per-attack is roughly the same as current Slayer Arrows.
3. Light damage feels a little out of place here, but since Arcanes do get Sunburst, it was the only appropriate "element" i could think of to round out the selection.
4. Changing some of the Minr Secondary Effects to be more like Force (ie gives benefit to the archer rather than debuffing enemies) would probably be a good idea.
5. The Bonus Damage attributes may seem to favor acid/frost, except that every hit for the non-stacking Dots will reset their timer, meaning that those Dots will only really shine if enemies are not repeatedly attacked.
6. Imbue costs are high, due to Imbues being a "One on; All on" proposition. Casting any imbue "unlocks" all imbues, allowing the Archer to swap between active imbues with no SP cost. A 3 second cooldown should be added to imbues to prevent rapid switching. Resting, being dispelled, or any other buff-removing event re-locks imbues.
7. Many of the Minor/Major/Damage effects were created to give each imbue some individuality. however, it does make the whole idea a rather complicated mess. I woudl not be opposed to giving some elements carbon copy Minor/major/damage effects as others (Say, 3 elements get a DoT, 3 get a burst type for Damage, 3 get a stun and 3 get a "hold" for Major effects, etc)
8. Obviously, this idea is incredibly overcomplicated, unbalanced in places, and extremely Rough Draft even as a suggestion, but I had been mulling over it all night, and I figured if I didn't get it all down my head might a'splode. I woudl have no problem with changes to proc rates, fine tuning percentages, switching effects around, or outright gutting certain sections

PS - I spend way WAY too much time on these kinds of posts. I really hope this gets a few creative juices flowing atleast, cause this is like 2+ hours of my life I'm not gonna get back.

[RobbinB]

I could see Elemental Arrows being a Branch on the tree in which the element could be chosen from a selection menu like resist energy has.

AA Elemental Arrows
Tier 1: Elemental Touch (1d4)
Tier 2: Elemental (1d6)
Tier 3: Elemental Burst (1d6+2d10) (Crit)
Tier 4: Elemental Blast (1d6+2d10+4d6) (Vorpal)
Tier 5: Elemental Strike (20d6) (%)

If you want a more unique aspect though then like what we have now Acid could be the DoT, Lightning could have a Stun chance, Cold could have a Slow property and Fire could be a small AoE.

This is clearly laid out and pretty much the idea I was hitting at in terms of having "tiers" for a path.

My only criticism is I think maybe the arcane archers should have to choose one path only, or at least spend extra AP if they want multiple paths.
If you can simply choose your element from a list then we will simply always choose the "best dps option" for whichever dungeon we happen to be in. Since all elements have the same tiers you can effectively calculate a sort of "average expected dps". The secondary aspects you list probably aren't strong enough to trump dps in terms of elemental choice. This is precisely what I have against the slayer arrows, they only contribute dps and nothing else, we know exactly how much that dps is, and it's way overpowered dps relative to not using the slayer arrows or not being an arcane archer.

The current secondary problem with the AA setup is that there is only one way to get to slayer arrows and it goes through all the other imbues and the +x arrows. So all AAs are really just spending the same package of AP, there's zero variety and zero real choice.

I think AA should not be about huge additional dps, but rather a little more dps and some cool secondary effects that have value outside of dps. And maybe making some choices that make one AA different than the next.

[licho]

This is clearly laid out and pretty much the idea I was hitting at in terms of having "tiers" for a path.

My only criticism is I think maybe the arcane archers should have to choose one path only, or at least spend extra AP if they want multiple paths.
If you can simply choose your element from a list then we will simply always choose the "best dps option" for whichever dungeon we happen to be in. Since all elements have the same tiers you can effectively calculate a sort of "average expected dps". The secondary aspects you list probably aren't strong enough to trump dps in terms of elemental choice. This is precisely what I have against the slayer arrows, they only contribute dps and nothing else, we know exactly how much that dps is, and it's way overpowered dps relative to not using the slayer arrows or not being an arcane archer.

Extra AP to unlock the path - sure.
But otherwise (choosing best element for dungeon) - why not?
There is already possible to pick right weapon for dungeon, like smiters, or some freeze weapon for quest full off fire elementals. Wizards can also set their spells to deal max dmg in the dungeon. So why should not?

The only note about elemental paths is that force or anything else, should be always one die step behind (so no 1d6 but 1d4 when it comes to normal imbue). SInce otherwise force is the choice.

Side note about various imbues. It will be interesting if some of them will be avaiable only with some other class splash. Like: Light - only with divine splash. Sonic - only with bard splash. Negative - only with PM splash.
The problem with untyped dmg is that its to easy. Like blade barrier or desintagration. So golems which should be bane for magic users are just a food for untyped dmg.

[voodoogroves]

I wouldn't mind seeing more AA options (I'm a big fan of options) but in general, I'd rather see some ranger ranged-affecting spells, similar to weapon imbues for artificers. Plop them in the 3rd and 4th level spell areas, and give folks a reason to run ranger pure or nearly so for ranged combat.


AAs actually aren't in a horrible place right now ... but AA has the benefit of being one of those PREs that isn't directly tied to a class. DPS-wise those fighter/barb/monk components are adding huge value. The weak area isn't AA.

... It's rangers and their ranged combat.

Give them late-class spells or built in enhancements. Make it a choice between Monk 6 / whatever and Ranger 20. Right now, it's not a choice.

[Quetzacoala]

Rather off topic, but has it come to the point where the damage output of an artificer has surpassed that of an arcane archer?

If so, arcane archers should be buffed until they deal significantly more damage; artificers should NOT be nerfed, arcane archers should be helped.

[Brennie]

(...)My only criticism is I think maybe the arcane archers should have to choose one path only, or at least spend extra AP if they want multiple paths.(...)

If anything Arcane Archers need more variety, not less. Since Elemental (Read: non Slayer Arrow) imbues omnly add a small bit of damage to AA attacks, I don't think the ability to use "the best element for the situation" would be very overpowering. Infact, not ebing able to do that would make AAs pretty useless in any content where enemies are highly resistant to their chosen element. An dthe last thing we need is to combine the awesomeness of Archery with the overpoweredness of Fire Savant in endgame content XD

(...)Side note about various imbues. It will be interesting if some of them will be avaiable only with some other class splash. Like: Light - only with divine splash. Sonic - only with bard splash. Negative - only with PM splash.
The problem with untyped dmg is that its to easy. Like blade barrier or desintagration. So golems which should be bane for magic users are just a food for untyped dmg.

Untyped damage may be "too easy", but its the only reason bow-based combat is worthwhile right now. Without that slayer-arrow-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel, Arcane Archer would be a joke of a PrE. That's not to say if AA was overhauled, and some more power was brought into it that untyped damage might be skippable... I just don't want AA's to get stuck in "I can't do anything in here, i might as well pull out melee weapon" mode all over again.

AAs actually aren't in a horrible place right now ... but AA has the benefit of being one of those PREs that isn't directly tied to a class. DPS-wise those fighter/barb/monk components are adding huge value. The weak area isn't AA.(...)

Except that AA1 through AA4 *ARE* weak. Our best non-slayer-arrow imbue is Acid Arrow, which is the second imbue we get, which adds 2d6 damage and a meh DoT. Between Rune Arm and Infusions, an Artificer *with no PrE* can match or exceed the bonus damage an AA can add to their shots, all while having higher +'s on their unlimited bolt supply or "free" access to flame arrows for another d6, and a much faster attack rate.

AA is just broken as it is right now:

Force Imbue are a good start, d6 damage and ghost touch.

Acid Imbue makes a nice upgrade.

Flame Burst imbue is a DPS downgrade, and *only* useful in situations where acid but not fire is highly resisted (Which are not many), or where virtually everything in a quest is weak to fire but not acid (Again, not common... and even then, Acid has a good chance of still being higher DPS due to the DoT and the relatively small DPS gain of "burst").

Force Burst Imbue is the same dps as Fire Burst, except that there are no quests where everything is weak to force, making it ONLY useful as a MINOR upgrade to the first imbue, and only when all enemies are fire/acid resistant. Fortunately, this imbue is optional (And i often skip it unless i have 1 AP left over in my final enhancement layout)

Terror Arrows are pretty weak by the time you get them. Combined with a paralyzer and weak-willed enemies, they can help with crwod control... but anything that can resist the paralyzer can start running off in all directions making life difficult. And the DC on PK is so low that even in level 15-normal content (the earliest you could get terror arrows), it hardly ever goes off.

Slayer Arrows blows the rest of the options out of the water. Infact the ONLY time you'd ever want to take the other options is a) you are in desperate need of ghost touch (And don't have an appropriate bow, or other source via worn items), or b) you are actively trying NOT to do excessive amounts of damage (Sleeping Dust, Slavers of the Shrieking Mines, Ghosts of Perdition, Shroud Part 2, etc)

However, i agree with you about Rangers needing a boost (However they need more than just a boost to Archery), and about Ranged Comabt as a whole needing a bit more better balancing.

Rather off topic, but has it come to the point where the damage output of an artificer has surpassed that of an arcane archer?

If so, arcane archers should be buffed until they deal significantly more damage; artificers should NOT be nerfed, arcane archers should be helped.

Yes, i believe it has. Artificer was built with making their Repeating Crossbows amazing, since melee would be a very difficult backup for them, and their spellcasting is limited (not bad mind you, just limited). As such, Archers can only really compete with the output of Artificers during manyshot and again after they pick up Slayer Arrows.

[RobbinB]

If anything Arcane Archers need more variety, not less. Since Elemental (Read: non Slayer Arrow) imbues omnly add a small bit of damage to AA attacks, I don't think the ability to use "the best element for the situation" would be very overpowering. Infact, not ebing able to do that would make AAs pretty useless in any content where enemies are highly resistant to their chosen element. An dthe last thing we need is to combine the awesomeness of Archery with the overpoweredness of Fire Savant in endgame content XD

But having the choice of element gives the illusion of having variety when it fact it removes variety. You would simply pick the most appropriate element for the dungeon and you would have the exact dps as laid out by Aesop. So in 90% of cases that damage type is equal to untyped damage = boring.

Forcing only one line on arcane archer seems to be removing variety but it actually creates variety, since different archers would choose different paths (assuming they are weighted correctly).

The arcane archer that chooses fire would be the guy that values seeing those massive dps values in certain cases. "Hey dude I just hit that water elemental with a natural 20 for 460 pts of fire damage and proced both an incineration and an immolation for 1000 more!" "Well, yeah, those devils are immune to all that, but that's when I fall back on the force line".

Versus another arcane archer that values the non-dps contributions of the earth line like earthgrab and destruction and says "hey, its not just about dps" and "I almost never have to fall back on that wimpy force stuff."

Note: endgame force line (free) might be force + force burst + force blast (+ ghost touch) which is isn't nothing if your current mob is resistant to your chosen element.

[Brennie]

(...)Note: endgame force line (free) might be force + force burst + force blast (+ ghost touch) which is isn't nothing if your current mob is resistant to your chosen element.

You do realize what a massive nerf removing slayer arrows for something like this would be, right? You'd go from a bonus damage-per-attack of an unresistable 25 to somewhere closer to 3-5 (Which enemies like golems would reduce even further).

Arcane Archer is a prestige line. Most prestige lines don't give much build variety, because they are in themselves ways of specializing a character. People don't pick different parts of Frenzied Berserker, or mix-and-match different elements of Assassin. As such, i think AA simply being a toolbox with different tools for different jobs works just fine, especially since doign so wouldn't suddenly cost an arm and a leg via Enhancement Options (Each of which would have to have their own AP investment, otherwise its not a choice).

Honestly, i think the goals for a revamped AA should be:

• Versatility - Different imbues for different occasions, without any one particular imbue being the "best" for everything. As such, the imbues themselves need to gain power as character level increases, or else "old" imbues will become nothing more than useless stepping stones. AA as it stands only has access to force, acid, fire, and untyped, which i don't consider well rounded enough.

• Damage - Right now AA adds much needed damage to bow combat. Changing the PrE in a way that lowers the damage in any way would be unacceptable. However, if Archery ever gets "Fixed" to be a reasonable DPS source *without* AA, then less damage and more utility seems like a good compromise. On a side note, I'd like to see Archery be less crit/vorpal focused, since the slow attack speed and high crit multipler already makes archery feel like a slot machine with a 1-in-20 chance of payout.

• Utility - Fear arrows are the only utility arrows right now, and give no damage gain. It'd be nice if the AA toolbox had more variety in the types of CC/Debuffing it could do, especially if these effects were combined with the damage imbues. However, I caution against carbon-copying abilities already found on popular Archer items (Longbow of Earth/Frozen Tunic/Crippling Arrowhead), since the non-stacking nature of those abilities will significantly devalue the named items (or the abilities... either way).

• Active Abilities - Seeker Arrow, Phase Arrow, Arrow of Death, and Hail of Arrows are all abilities from the PnP version of Arcane Archer. Given how lackluster Truestrike is, it'd be nice to have a couple more active abilities for AAs to play with (even if they're not particularly strong abilities, it'd still give us something to do, much like melees can spam trip and sunder as part of their combat routine).

• Upkeep - This is true of just about every PrE, and is certainly a large request to make of devs... But as new items, classes, prestiges, etc make it into the game, powercreep sets in. Unfortunately, powercreep does not effect all builds equally. Right now, sans Slayer Arrow, i don't feel AA keeps up particularly well. It'd be nice to revisit old PrE (and class/race abilities) to make sure they stack up well to the new stuff (For instance, if you can basically do everything a PrE can do with a couple new items, especially if those items don't stack with the PrE, then its time for that PrE to be looked at again.)

And those are my thoughts on the matter!

PS - I really keep hoping someone will give 8any* kind of feedback on my super long, complicated, and probably a bit too powerful revised AA idea a few posts back. I'm guessing lack of response means either "Wow... thats ridiculous" or "TL;DR"

[RobbinB]

You do realize what a massive nerf removing slayer arrows for something like this would be, right? You'd go from a bonus damage-per-attack of an unresistable 25 to somewhere closer to 3-5 (Which enemies like golems would reduce even further).

I fully realize that comparing force as listed to current slayer arrows is a massive nerf. But we are talking about what the situation would be if they revamped the full lines. The force/force burst/force blast would be your fall back in cases where your line of choice doesn't work (and would be in fact superior to the current best force arrows which as you point out are currently 99% useless because the untyped damage of slayer arrows trumps them unless you really want ghost touch). Your line of choice would be the much higher dps option and/or give enhanced utility. And in the context of revamping the system, I think getting rid of current slayer arrows is the way to go as they makee AA the only currently viable archery type. This "nerf" would be offset by general changes to the system which apply to all archers, such as a higher general rate of fire and all those other general ideas Aesop keeps throwing out. At the point of the change, archers wouldn't be nerfed, but rather improved. (But we'd still have to read 30 straight forum posts on "omg they removed slayer arrows")

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

keep up the good work guys hopefully some devs see this and like what they see

Devs if you ARE watching a comment saying something ANYTHING would be great!
a comment noted or good idea or somethin please ^.-