8 Bard Splash-No PrE???

[ShadowFlash]

The build in question is a 1rogue/11ranger/8bard. This build works surprisingly well, and all I'm doing is tweaking final enhancements. The way it works out, we actually have a few AP's to spare!!! <---that's a first! We've feat swapped back and forth between spellsinger and warchanter for the bard PrE...and like them both. Spellsinger is more for our own personal playstyle, so we'll just be discussing warchanter vs. none.

Elf, TWF rapiers (with at least Tier I racials).

Warchanter:
+1atk/+2dmg (+1atk from feat) and meh ironskin chant
requires Weapon Focus: Piercing
Fills all available AP's
No room for lingering song (fascinate)

No Pre:
swap focus for Imp. Crit Piercing (no other room for the feat)
drop warchanter
swap inspire bravery II for lingering song II (fascinate duration)
Sprint boost III (have I&II already)
Damage Boost I

Improved Critical: Piercing is probablly enough of a reason to drop warchanter for us.

Rogue Haste Boost I is always taken, but my question is Damage Boost I (10%). Considering a few extra AP to play with, is it worth it at only 10%, or is it a DPS loss when TWF (elemental rapier of Air + envenomed shortsword)?

34ish STR, +4dmg song, +2dmg item +1dmg racial (main hand only) is all standard running fare ATM.

I know both boosts cannot be activated at the same time. The idea is haste boost I for manyshot, damage boost I for TWFing.


Opinions?
ShadowFlash

[Bardicus]

What is your feat list? Since you are elf and are tight on feats I'm assuming you are taking some ranged feats and have AA?

Are you not better off going Half-Elf with Rogue Dilettante and taking a fighter level for an extra feat and fighter toughness?

You'd lose rogue skills but you'd gain sneak attack damage and pick up 10hps and a feat along the way.

[katz]

go virtuoso if you can spare the AP for it. XD

roomfulls of mobs drooling on themselves that can't even hit back when you hit them is sexy

[Crann]

I've got one at level 16 now and love it.

Will be trying the Warchanter route, and it is kind of a bummer Weapon Focus: Ranged doesn't count for Warchanter.

I think if you plan on raiding, then WC is worth it. Short manning like you seem to...then maybe consider Virtuoso. More songs/more powerful songs/longer songs with only one feat requirement.

I like the Spellsinger idea also, maybe even more for this build in a raiding capacity. Really like that it doesn't require a feat, actually realized I can drop mental toughness while looking at this option (originally didn't have any bard planned on this AA)

IMHO the strengths of this build are:

Decent songs/buffs
Traps
AA
Full TWF line
UMD

Once you remove one of these, then I think there are better builds out there.

[Gorbadoc]

Yeah, it's hard to have an opinion when you haven't posted your actual build. List your feats and ability scores.

I guess I can offer an opinion on the level split:
It's an okay choice. The bard abilities are just a ghost of what they are on a pure bard, but they're still useful. Inspire Courage doesn't stack with Greater Heroism (which most high level parties can get by having a wizard or scrolls), so if you go war chanter, the effective bonus is +1 attack, +6 damage. Obviously you can't go hog wild with the Fascinating, but judicious use of the ability can still be a huge boon. Fitting bard skills and rogue skills on ranger levels is a squeeze, but I guess it can be done if you don't value the "good but not absolutely essential" skills.

On an 8bard build, I like ranger as the predominant other class. The goal should be to compete with more pure physical combat builds while having enough skill points to keep bard abilities working correctly. Ranger does this pretty well, and it even has the built-in option of archery burst damage as option B in a fight.

Elf probably isn't the strongest race for this kind of build, but if you like its racial enhancements and/or flavor, it's very doable.

[Viciouspika]

It is a very fun build. I have a dwarf version called Decibal on Orien. He is currently at lvl 20 and a blast to play. While leveling, I took rogue, ranger, 6 bard, 1 ranger, 2 bard, then the rest ranger. For Pre, I went with virtuoso I. Music of the dead worked wonders up to the orchard. It also works well in epics with undead.

For feats, I went with toughness, negotiator, dodge, moblility, spring attack, ic: slash, and oversized twf. The feat list is tight. I was thinking of going for a warchanter, but the only feat you can remove is negotiator.

I only use the manyshot feature rarely and only for mobs out of reach. The rest of the time I'm in the mix with Two dwarven axes. I usually spam short burst rages, and hastes when they have expired and the casters are too focused on spell DPS.

Starting states, STR 14+ lvlups, DEX 14, CON 16, INT 14, WIS 10, CHA 12. On hindsight, I should have dropped WIS back to 8, and added one to STR.

I would drop the sprint boost back to the first tier. One of your bard spells could be expedious retreat. The five extra AP could be used for lingering songs tiers.

[ShadowFlash]

I'm sorry, I think everyone has mis-understood my post. This build is done, played, and leveled to 20 already We've considered virtuoso as well, but like spellsinger and warchanter, it also requires a feat with only 8 bard. Just to humor everyone, and show that there is no room to drop feats

http://my.ddo.com/character/orien/spiritadrft/
She's got some shrine gear on, and a clickie or 2 equiped, but you'll get the jist of it.

Toughness
Extend (necessary for self haste/displace)
Imp Crit: Ranged
Power Attack
Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus: Ranged

That leaves 1 more feat. Currently, that's Weapon Focus: Piercing, to qualify for warchanter. If we drop that...

swap focus for Imp. Crit Piercing (no other room for the feat)
drop warchanter
swap inspire bravery II for lingering song II (fascinate duration)
Sprint boost III (have I&II already)
Damage Boost I

One of my main questions is if damage boost I is actually worth anything?

Another note, is that this split is very very nice for utility, 6th man, survivability, and decent DPS. Having full rogue skills, excellent buffs, full UMD, full TWF, full AA (including all feats), and fascinate....which is why we're leaning towards dropping warchanter...It frees AP for lingering song...and she melee's quite a bit off manyshot, so improved Crit: Piercing is really really tempting....more so than +2atk/dmg that warchanter brings.

@crann...perfect assesment of the build...all those strengths you listed were requirements for short-manning, and a helves/10K can't pull it off. The problem with the Raiding assesment is even with warchanter, the song is still week and easily overshadowed by ANY other bard in the group. We're considering spellsinger, because I may LR into a WIS-based battle-cleric and it would help my DC's...the extra 100sp for perma hasteplacement don't hurt either. I see you're on Orien also we should compare notes one day

@Gorbadoc..actually Elf is the best race choice here, believe it or not...Half-Elf skews the stats to much to gain a dille...rogue being wasted with the mandatory UMD/Trap requirement..not to mention Racial Dex & weapons more easily allowing full melee & ranged,

@Viciouspika...bard gives expeditious retreat..and stacks for warp speed...Sprint Boost is way to addictive to drop...wish we had room to max it actually. Your Decibel version seems to be lacking some range/melee feats.

@katz...in my sig is one of our next duoing builds...Dwarf Virtuoso Tactitian...we're saving Virt for that one.

@Bardicus...losing rogue skills is not an option...it's a core feature of the build


ShadowFlash