The Myth of Pay To Win

[Hafeal]

In my mind, perhaps pay2win is another way of starting a pnp campaign with high level characters but never having played those characters up the leveling process. In DDO, you can, to an extent, buy items or features to do this. I have always preferred a smell the roses approach to DDO and enjoy the levelling process but I realize others only want to play end game and pass levels as quickly as possible.

That is fine, I get it, different strokes for different folks.

That being said, the DDO store has been, in my mind, on a slippery slope / pay2win course in another fashion. My fear was, and is, that as new content comes out, the new content will become harder and harder because it is built around the maximum you can be using Store resources, not the minimum, thus requiring you to buy from the Store to succeed, particularly if you are a casual player. Even though there MAY be options in game to bypass the Store, the reasonableness (or horrid drop rate of grinding) make it so that the only "real" option is to skip content, not play, or pay.

This can mean requiring you to TR, perhaps multiple times, or if you choose not to TR, to carry store bought items, like pots, and other various and sundry items to complete questing, especially at higher levels. Or perhaps, you just avoid content, like raids, because of the intimidation factor of not being geared out.

My original hope was that the store would focus on non-game affecting items. Cosmetic items - like armor, hair dyes, etc. While they have done some of that, the price points, imo, have created underwhelming revenue. Rather than revamp them though, DDO instead began walking the slope of putting more and more game affecting items in the Store - items players now take for granted but weren't there at the start but have been incrementally added: pots, +2, tomes, +3 tomes, elemental weapons, shroud ingredients etc. The idea of the slope is you do not notice how far you have gone until you are at the bottom.

In my mind, DDO is fun, and I really do not care about other players paying money to get to various game points that they enjoy. What I do care about is that DDO continues to make content built around certain assumptions of power gamers that in turn require casual gamers to use the Store. That slippery slope creep is there, imo. Power gamers do not have this problem - they have the time. Casual gamers do not.

[yawumpus]

It might be sarcastic as a description of your gameplay. But that does describe quite a lot of players.

I play for fun. If I reach a point where its 'work' rather than 'play' to try to get an item, I do without the item. I like have loot, of course. But its only relevant in the sense that it increases the difficulty setting of the quest. If I'm geared/skilled enough that hard is not interesting, I run elite. Or whatever.

So, sneer all you want. Just because gear accumulation is your main goal doesn't mean its everyone's.

While I will admit that there are plenty of players who are indifferent to the accumulation of gear (and will assume that they exist in greater numbers outside of fora), I don't see how that makes pay2win a superior system. Consider two cases:

Case A. Player indifferent to gear. Player does not buy win, player may buy content. Player happy.
Case B1. Player allows gearing toons to guide his play. Player buys win, player has less to play for. Player quits.
Case B2. Player allows gearing toons to guide his play. Player does not buy win, watches others zoom pass him. Player rage quits.
Case B3. Player allows gearing toons to guide his play. Marketing keeps pay2win urges under control. Player keeps buying content (needed for gearing, if nothing else). Player happy

In all the threads about "Abbot ate my greensteel" or "bank ate my huge bags" I don't recall anybody saying "yeah, that happened to me. Who cares?". This might just be simple decency, but how often does that happen in an MMO forum?

[Vormaerin]

if you want to know why microtransactions are a superior system, that's pretty easy. It allows far more people to play the game and it produces superior revenue. Lots of people will play a game occassionally and spend a little money on it that would never consider paying a subscription. And microtransactions allow people spend more money than just the sub does.

If you are asking about "pay to win" itself, you still have to provide a convincing definition of "winning" for DDO. There's no pvp of note. There's no way to get a real advantage over other players. How does having 20 extra hours a week to grind differ from spending $200 on grind reducers?

P2W whiners just think there is some innate value to time over money, but there isn't. They are both the same and both still a source of inequality. Its just that "Have no life 2 Win" is more awkward to say :P

Its still an "unfair advantage" either way. Only way it would be "fair" is if everyone got the same amount of time and guild membership.

Seriously, what difference is it to you whether I spend hours grinding work to buy my eSoS or I spend hours grinding in game to get the same result? I can't kill you with it either way.

[Marcus-Hawkeye]

I have a life outside of DDO. Kids, girlfriend, work. It takes up almost all of my time to keep that stuff going. I enjoy playing DDO. The DDO Store has made it easier for me to continue to play the game with restricted game time. I think of it as not "pay to win" but more as "pay to keep up with the kids and unemployed".

[varusso]

In my mind, perhaps pay2win is another way of starting a pnp campaign with high level characters but never having played those characters up the leveling process. In DDO, you can, to an extent, buy items or features to do this. I have always preferred a smell the roses approach to DDO and enjoy the levelling process but I realize others only want to play end game and pass levels as quickly as possible.

That is fine, I get it, different strokes for different folks.

That being said, the DDO store has been, in my mind, on a slippery slope / pay2win course in another fashion. My fear was, and is, that as new content comes out, the new content will become harder and harder because it is built around the maximum you can be using Store resources, not the minimum, thus requiring you to buy from the Store to succeed, particularly if you are a casual player. Even though there MAY be options in game to bypass the Store, the reasonableness (or horrid drop rate of grinding) make it so that the only "real" option is to skip content, not play, or pay.

This can mean requiring you to TR, perhaps multiple times, or if you choose not to TR, to carry store bought items, like pots, and other various and sundry items to complete questing, especially at higher levels. Or perhaps, you just avoid content, like raids, because of the intimidation factor of not being geared out.

My original hope was that the store would focus on non-game affecting items. Cosmetic items - like armor, hair dyes, etc. While they have done some of that, the price points, imo, have created underwhelming revenue. Rather than revamp them though, DDO instead began walking the slope of putting more and more game affecting items in the Store - items players now take for granted but weren't there at the start but have been incrementally added: pots, +2, tomes, +3 tomes, elemental weapons, shroud ingredients etc. The idea of the slope is you do not notice how far you have gone until you are at the bottom.

In my mind, DDO is fun, and I really do not care about other players paying money to get to various game points that they enjoy. What I do care about is that DDO continues to make content built around certain assumptions of power gamers that in turn require casual gamers to use the Store. That slippery slope creep is there, imo. Power gamers do not have this problem - they have the time. Casual gamers do not.

There is nothing about the game that "requires" you to have store-purchased items (other than adventure packs etc of course), and nothing in the stores history of development that indicates it is headed in that direction. Its that very "sky is falling" made-up nonsense that creates the whole stigma in the first place.

The game is as open to casual players as it ever was -- more so in fact, with the addition of casual difficulty settings on non-raid quests. Not to mention hirelings (when they work) and readily accessible combat-pets (gems from Cove, clickies that summon pets). According to some, the purchasable stuff in the store actually makes it MORE accessible to casuals, allowing them to fill the power gap a bit between themselves and the more hardcore gamers -- assuming they are willing to pay for it.

But nothing about this scenario in any way requires anyone to purchase anything other than the content itself, which is inherent in a F2P model. And no actions by Turbine thus far have indicated that will change. The newer quests ARE definitely harder than the older ones, in many cases, but that is due to in-game power creep, not store sales. And they are still playable on lower difficulty settings by casual players. If I can solo a quest on norm, surely to god a group of casual adventurers can take norm or casual together.

[testing1234]

you travel halfway around the world and end up in a mcdonalds.
ill let you guess what my point is with this has more bearing on the discussion then large number of posts in this tread in my opinion

would be nice if i could pay to be able to erase any posts in the forum i dislike sure would be convenient would make it lot easier to "win" this thread id like to call this pay2erase P2E

[decease]

you win the game when you can solo every epic raid alone without companion nor hireling.

[Hafeal]

There is nothing about the game that "requires" you to have store-purchased items ... According to some, the purchasable stuff in the store actually makes it MORE accessible to casuals, allowing them to fill the power gap a bit between themselves and the more hardcore gamers -- assuming they are willing to pay for it.

But nothing about this scenario in any way requires anyone to purchase anything other than the content itself, which is inherent in a F2P model. And no actions by Turbine thus far have indicated that will change. The newer quests ARE definitely harder than the older ones, in many cases, but that is due to in-game power creep, not store sales.

Thanks for validating everything I said.

Correct - you don't 'need' to - but, my oh my, the Store does just make it easier doesn't it?

[Vormaerin]

Thanks for validating everything I said.

Correct - you don't 'need' to - but, my oh my, the Store does just make it easier doesn't it?

Huh? How did he validate everything you said? At least, I read your post as suggesting that there was power creep in the content already that was a result of the Store.

His whole point was that there was no such thing. There are only a few things sold in the store that directly help with quest completion: pretty much all of them are potions of some sort, besides the anti beholder gizmos. Of those, the only thing that is a real power boost is the mana pots for casters; plus, everything except the beholder stoppers are sold for gold.

There's certainly no content that is designed to require you to buy stuff from the store at the present time.

[Hafeal]

There's certainly no content that is designed to require you to buy stuff from the store at the present time.

Stop being a Turbine fanboi. No one is attacking Turbine anyway.

Turbine wants to make money, bulah for them - I want them to get theirs too. As Chai pointed out, Turbine is using the store as a vehicle to encourage Store purchases; I would add especially for casual players. You are correct, 'required' is the WRONG word. And I did not use it.

Where does 'power creep' come from? It comes from more than just the game aging from new content with new gear. It also comes from finding ways to make players want to use the Store. This includes the way quests are designed and played. Power gamers and long time vets are less affected because of skill or just the sheer time they have (or have accumulated) to grind for the gear to make the content easier.

Think. The whole idea is that you can buy items from the store to finish questing now that wasn't possible 4 years ago in this game or which has been traditionally available in mmos. Normally you play until you figure it out, you know kinda like, well, a good pnp session. Now when you are stuck and don't want to waste time you buy a shrine, or an anvil, or a beholder ray absorber, or mana pots, or a rogue hireling, or an icy burst weapon ... and if you think quest designers do not take those factors into account with every pack since the Store opened, I have some land to sell you in a Louisiana swamp.

[NaturalHazard]

What? I don't get a supermodel when I win DDO??? :O O_O ... guess I need to find some other game

Yeah you do get a super model when you win DDO her name is pam and she has 5 sisters. Since you won and now she is less busy with helping you win ddo she has more free time for you and her to get better reaquainted.

.

[alexthegood]

"Pay to Win" ~ its a term that gets thrown around a fair bit on the forums I've noticed...

Its an interesting concept ~ if item X is available on the DDO Store for Y dollars Player Z WINS!

How do they win though?

Do they get a Car? a House? a Supermodel? a Unicorn err ok with the pets not best example but you see what I mean...

What does "winning" in DDO actually mean?

There is no ~ Devs joke on the Completionist Feat aside ~ definitive "You WIN DDO" moment...

Before anybody says "well if they could buy everything" ~ they already can...

You've seen it ~ LFMs with "Quest X Paying Y for Z Dont join if you need Z" or at the start of a run someone says "I'll buy Z" or something pops in a chest and somebody asks "Is that for roll?" there is a delay and it gets passed to another player who obviously bought it (OK if its between guildies that is different ~ thats a given running in a group with a high proportion of same guilded players ~ if its non guilded players however)...

So we have our hypothetical player who has bought everything they want ~ do they win?

Umm how about no?

You see the thing with an MMO is that while it has a high population that population is based on a lot of churn at the low end and a relatively small relatively stable population at the high end...

Reputation matters...

You can buy all the gear you want but if you're a tool you're still a tool in eMaralith weilding an eSoS you'd have to be crazy to think otherwise...

In fact the players who have aggressively bought their gear are the ones most blacklisted ~ because they just cant play well...

The only reason I could see for people taking a Play To Win approach in DDO would be to try and break into the high end raiding/epic scene (I assume the acceptance into that would be the Win for them) but these are the people most vigoriously rejected...

Conclusion ~ Myth : Busted...

love that end Part!

[Terebinthia]

I don't really care what's in the store as long as it doesn't hurt the LFM scene. BTC raid loot isn't a good idea, or Shards of Power, and I'm a bit on the fence about +3 tomes TBH, since that's one reason people were grinding the older raids (didn't stop me buying them for my casting stats, though, heh ).

As long I can't buy, oh, an Omniescence in the DDO store, or those PK wraps from Hound, or a Torc, we're probably OK. And if people want to drink SP store pots like water, that's up to them - provided that pressure isn't put on other blue bars who don't follow that practice to do the same.

[Postumus]

and if you think quest designers do not take those factors into account with every pack since the Store opened, I have some land to sell you in a Louisiana swamp.

That's cool... as long as it isn't overrun by those swamp people...

[chrichton]

...and?

For many, they would not be able to play melees without HP pots, haste pots, rage pots, resist pots, remove curse pots, remove poison pots, remove disease pots, clickies for GH, scrolls for healing/raising......

Some of it can be bought/farmed in the game, some can be bought in the store. Same goes for SP pots. If the player "must" chug pots, and they want to buy them from the store rather than farm/buy them from the AH -- so what? So long as they keep themselves supplied and dont play that toon in a group when they are NOT supplied, how is that fundamentally different from grinding out the items that help better manage SP? If they would rather buy some pots than spend their time grinding, let them. As long as they dont run out in the middle of a run with your toon (and if they do they will likely just pop open the store and buy more), it doesnt matter in the slightest.

Just means they helped pay for more game development in the long run.

Someone made the claim that store-bought items are all optional. I suggested they were not all optional.

Your points may be valid, but you side-stepped my point.

[varusso]

Someone made the claim that store-bought items are all optional. I suggested they were not all optional.

Your points may be valid, but you side-stepped my point.

No i didnt. You said that for some, SP pots are not optional; I said the same is true of other classes with other potions and effects -- all of which (including Sp pots) have in-game equivalents. The only real differences are methods of payment (which both come down to time invested in one form or another, in the end) and convenience. If you could open an AH or guild vendor at-will (and for free) and get delivery in-quest, I daresay many players would spot-purchase their goods from there as well.

Whoops, drank my last haste pot -- pulling up the guild vendor real quick. Dang, my quiver is empty -- pulling up the House D vendor. Hmm I may need some extra SP for this fight, and i forgot my pots in the bank -- lets see if the Ah has any reasonably priced.

^^Convenience -- only offered in the DDO store, which is where iI daresay they make a chunk of their micro-purchase profits -- as it is intended..

[Alavatar]

I have to admit that I would pay for Past Lives. Based on the cost of a True Heart of Wood, and the revenue of Experience Elixirs while leveling a TR, I would place the value of a Past Life at around ~$25. I would gladly pay that for each Past Life.

[lhidda]

I have to admit that I would pay for Past Lives. Based on the cost of a True Heart of Wood, and the revenue of Experience Elixirs while leveling a TR, I would place the value of a Past Life at around ~$25. I would gladly pay that for each Past Life.

If that comes, I finally quit ddo.

[Raithe]

It also comes from finding ways to make players want to use the Store. This includes the way quests are designed and played.

Here we go, some sense finally spoken in this thread.

I'm laughing at all the people who use Pay-2-Win in the context of comparing character gear and ability between players. Especially when they go on to make some sort of statement that DDO is "PvE" and has no competitive aspects to it. Winning in this particular phrase is not directly related to beating other players or game mechanics in general at all.

Pay-2-Win is a marketing strategy that opposes subscription-based models. The idea is to make it convenient for people who would pay to achieve what they want out of the game to actually do so (a shortening of Pay-2-Get-What-You-Want). The Free-2-Play part of it is for those who can stomache playing with the first group, but would only do so if the cost was extremely minimal.

It generally works as long as the development company is careful. If they make it so the Free-2-Play no longer care to, they have gone too far and the game can go downhill very fast.

Hafeal's statement above is the only real concern that Turbine and F2P players should be looking at (the rest of you are the stooges that are paying our way, please ignore this post). The issue is that power creep requires power creep, and to keep the payers paying requires ramping up damage and other factors in quests on a continual basis. They have been doing this, and it angers the F2P people because of the technical difficulties it brings. They have also been doing it in rather stupid ways that are not really countering power creep, but rather amplifying issues with lag, griefing, and other fully undesirable aspects of their game (i.e. bladestorm damage increases).

Much of the game is already mostly unplayable by normal game players. While generally these quests (for instance, most of Epic) are completable by a typical normal group, they are so monotonous and full of potential playing issues that they have become very unpopular except in private guild groups of longtime players. That is fine, as long as there are alternatives in gameplay. It really boils down to having enough content to appeal to everyone while keeping the money flowing. That has always been their problem. I think they may have found a good strategy in releasing challenge packs, however, as the gameplay of those seems to be much more solid and long-lasting than their previous offerings.

[Kadran]

I dislike the term pay to win, but i'm glad for the ddo store and microtransactions.

I play the game to be good at it. To have good loot, to have good relationships both in guild nd in the pugging scene, to hve fun, and to pass some time.

However, it's a vicious circle in the standard mmo model. I don't have time to play as much as jobless folks that farm for hours straight while i'm at work. I don't have the appropriate gear as I haven't put in 46 hours of game play this week. Because I don't have the gear, i'm declined from pugs and cannot get into a good guild easily.

Now look at the jobless guy (I used to be one.) Wake up, play ddo. Break for brunch. Play ddo. Break for dinner. Play ddo. Nap (I didn't consider it sleeping.) Play ddo. Repeat.

I'm glad there is a way to close the gap for those of us who can't play for 40 hours a week, but still want to be semi competitive. I've bought mana pots, and i'm not ashamed or embarrassed to say so. I then sell the majors I get in game for plat or trade them for items I want. I only use pots rarely and sparingly anyway. 1 stack of 100 has seen me through 4 lives and I still have 20ish left over.

Were I able to buy shards/seals/etc I probably would, depending on howw elusive it has been to me.