Natural spell, yea or nay?

[Silverleafeon]

This is the feat that made Druids the most powerful class in 3.5 edition D&D.

Handle with care...

[Indoran]

I always thought Natural Spell only allows you to cast spell when shapeshifted, but not using scroll/wands/pots etc.

Although I'm not too sure going by the description
http://dndtools.eu/feats/masters-of-...l-spell--2035/


I agree. I don't really mind either way if Natural Spell is implemented or not. As long as the Druids are fun to play.

Not being able to use scrolls would be a balancing factor... (forget about healing some raids while shapeshifted)

Also I would like to see natural spell in the game...

[sephiroth1084]

Why does everyone want a feat tax on a class that doesn't have bonus feats?

At worst, make Natural Spell an enhancement tax, like the first rank of Inscribed Armor is for WF arcanes. Either druids should be able to cast while wildshaped or they shouldn't; they should not need to take a feat to make one part of their class work with the other part.

[Kielbasa]

Give them natural spell at level 20.

[decease]

if they make shape strong enough to stand alone, then am ok without natural spell. though likely i will not be healing role..

[alexp80]

if they make shape strong enough to stand alone, then am ok without natural spell. though likely i will not be healing role..

This is the point.
I think that animal form could never be strong enough to compensate the loss of spellcasting for druid.
In a melee form such as bear of wolf, which is an adeguate compensation? +20str/+20con?
I think it's not enough and I think the bonus will be lower.

So natural spell is really needed

[DrawingGuy]

Why is it that people think that they should get shape shifts that give bonuses with no penalties? No armor means nothing in a game that AC means nothing. Any move that prevents wands/clickies has always been circumvented by using those items before that move, so it's no penalty. Who cares if you can't use scrolls? If you're supposed to be scroll healing, you simply don't change shape. You're already getting special stats with the shape. You're already getting special spells for the shape. And it's balanced to then still keep all your old spells too? It was OP to do so in PnP (and that was at a feat cost, so to do anything less here would make it even more stupidly OP). It would be even more OP in DDO with the unlimited spell use. I want shape shifts to be fun forms that actually have a tradeoff... not a buff button.

[decease]

This is the point.
I think that animal form could never be strong enough to compensate the loss of spellcasting for druid.
In a melee form such as bear of wolf, which is an adeguate compensation? +20str/+20con?
I think it's not enough and I think the bonus will be lower.

So natural spell is really needed

they could..for example

bear shape-
-your base hit dice become d12
-you gain 2 natural bonus to ac for every 5 druid level
-you gain 1 natural bonus to Intimidate skill for every druid level
-your base attack have a chance to stun your enemy (dc = druid level + 10 + wis mod + stunning weapon)
-your bab equal to fighter of same level
-you gain combat expertise feat

wolf shape-
- 1d6 sneak attack damage for every 2 druid level
-evasion at level 6, improved evasion at 12
-+1 natural bonus to reflex save for every 3 druid level
-+1 natural bonus to hide and move silently skill for every druid level.
-you gain vapor to your attack at level 18
-you gain power attack feat

[Voldomar]

Any move that prevents wands/clickies has always been circumvented by using those items before that move, so it's no penalty. Who cares if you can't use scrolls?
.....
.....
I want shape shifts to be fun forms that actually have a tradeoff... not a buff button.

Wild shape IS a buff button.
It is a powerful ability in pnp and it has many drawbacks. Some of them can be circumvented ( natural spell ) some others can't be. We'll see how it's going to work in ddo.
Not being able to use wands,clickies and scrolls in this game would be a huge trade-off in itself. If you can't see it, than I don't know what to say.

[MrkGrismer]

Wild shape IS a buff button.
It is a powerful ability in pnp and it has many drawbacks. Some of them can be circumvented ( natural spell ) some others can't be. We'll see how it's going to work in ddo.
Not being able to use wands,clickies and scrolls in this game would be a huge trade-off in itself. If you can't see it, than I don't know what to say.

They stated it will work like a stance. (and that is about all they have really stated on it)

[Aesop]

they could..for example

bear shape-
-your base hit dice become d12
-you gain 2 natural bonus to ac for every 5 druid level
-you gain 1 natural bonus to Intimidate skill for every druid level
-your base attack have a chance to stun your enemy (dc = druid level + 10 + wis mod + stunning weapon)
-your bab equal to fighter of same level
-you gain combat expertise feat

wolf shape-
- 1d6 sneak attack damage for every 2 druid level
-evasion at level 6, improved evasion at 12
-+1 natural bonus to reflex save for every 3 druid level
-+1 natural bonus to hide and move silently skill for every druid level.
-you gain vapor to your attack at level 18
-you gain power attack feat

I like the idea though I'd probably parse it out a little differently


Wolf

+2 Str, +4 Dex, +2 Con
+1d6 Sneak Attack/3 Druid Levels
Threat Reduction 10% +5%/5 Druid Levels
Movement +25%
Evasion
Natural Attack 1d6 19-20/x2
Improve Natural Attack (Druid 9) 1d8 19-20/x2
Greater Natural Attack (Druid 18) 2d6 19-20/x2
Critical Trip: On Critical Hits proc a Trip Attempt with a +2 to the DC
Howl(SLA): Group Buff/Mass Debuff: +2 Morale Bonus to Attack and Damage for allies enemies are Shaken (DC 10 +1/2 Druid Level + Wis Mod)


Bear

+8 Str, +4 Con
Threat Increase 50% +10%/4 Druid Levels
Damage Mitigation 5% +5%/5 Druid Levels
Natural Armor 2+1/5 Druid Levels
Natural Attack 1d8 20/x3
Improved Natural Attack (Druid 12) 2d6 20/x3
Greater Natural Attack (Druid 20) 3d6 20/x3
Critical Stun: On Critical Hits proc a Stun Attempt
Rend (Druid 15): Vorpal strike
IT'S A BEAR!(SLA): Draw Threat like Intimidate skill Will Save to resist (DC 10+ Druid level +Wis Mod)



Then I'd have some Enhancements to add templates to the forms like

Dire Wolf
additional
+2 Str +2 Con
+2 Natural Armor
+2 Trip


Winter Wolf
+2 Str
Frost Ward
Icy Claw (Frost weapon on natural attack)
Breathe Weapon (SLA) 1d6 Cold/2 Druid levels


Dire Bear
+4 Str
+2 Natural Armor
Mangle (Maiming weapon on natural attack)


or something like that ... maybe

Aesop

[fatherpirate]

I see alot of...for balance sake..I don't want to see nature spell feat.

ok, for argument lets do that

Now over to the necro wizzards....NO spell casting in zombie form and drop
int to 1..no spell casting wraith form except listed wraith abilities, casting is allowed
in vamp form but if you go outside during daylight you vaporize instantly.
Lich form can also cast spells

ok back to the reality of DDO, such as it is

Given the loss of gear/armor/weapon bonuses in poly form..if you take away their
spells as well, there is absolutely no reason to change forms...ever.
It would be an instant huge gimp

but but whimper but look at the pluses as a bear ???
and eliminate every plus and bonus you get from your gear...and no spells
Super gimp

[fatherpirate]

Why is it that people think that they should get shape shifts that give bonuses with no penalties? No armor means nothing in a game that AC means nothing. Any move that prevents wands/clickies has always been circumvented by using those items before that move, so it's no penalty. Who cares if you can't use scrolls? If you're supposed to be scroll healing, you simply don't change shape. You're already getting special stats with the shape. You're already getting special spells for the shape. And it's balanced to then still keep all your old spells too? It was OP to do so in PnP (and that was at a feat cost, so to do anything less here would make it even more stupidly OP). It would be even more OP in DDO with the unlimited spell use. I want shape shifts to be fun forms that actually have a tradeoff... not a buff button.

no armor ? I am sorry...no

no armor
no weapons
no helm
no trinket
no cloak
no gloves
no boots
no wrist guards
no belt
no shield
no goggles
no wands
no potions
no scrolls
no clickys

your an animal thats it.

add no spells, then your a trash mob

[decease]

no armor ? I am sorry...no

no armor
no weapons
no helm
no trinket
no cloak
no gloves
no boots
no wrist guards
no belt
no shield
no goggles
no wands
no potions
no scrolls
no clickys

your an animal thats it.

add no spells, then your a trash mob

thats exactly what i was thinking..

[NaturalHazard]

Yes please I would actually most likely not buy druid class if they didnt have this feat...... balance it please though.

Hmmm in 3.5 druids where the most powerful class? well clerics, wizards, favoured souls, and sorcs + a lot of other spell casters where not *that* far behind.

[decease]

hmm how about this? lets solve this issue with both solution

let there be two type of form. one type is very strong and stand alone, which do not allow natural spell. but they grant huge bonus that allow druid to fill the role of minor dps or off tank

let the second type of from be such as caster form, like shroud, which give minor bonus but allow natural spell.

[fatherpirate]

I will go out on a limb

How to have nature spell feat and balance it.

Do keep in mind that you need to take the feat

1. only works with memorized druid spells...no scrolls, wands ect.
2. spell must require no material comp. OR you must also use the meta-magic feat that eliminates the need
if your form is not humanoid. In PnP some druid forms are humanoid..but prob not in DDO.
3. wolf / bear no restrictions on the spell list
4. If you are in elemental form, casting attack spells of the oposite is not allowed
as in, if your a water elemental, you can't throw fire wall.

I would only use these retrictions if you still had all the effects from your gear, minus armor and weapon

I all your gear was turned off...I would put no restrictions

That is just me

One issue would be...this would be complicated.

Side note - druid were considered one of the most powerful classes in PnP
because they could turn into just about anything needed...need a snake..bam snake
need a bird...bam bird, need a shark you get the picture.

In DDO that is not happening so the idea that they are going to be uber powerful
is based on abilities they will not have.

[THOTHdha]

My guess is that they will be able to cast, but at an increased spell point cost, possibly with an AP line to reduce the cost. Otherwise I feel the forms would have to be very strong to make of for the loss of casting, armor, and weapons (Seems unlikely to me that they'd go PnP and disable all gear in form) and make it a viable option as anything other than something to do when out of SP.

Where does this kind of wild speculation come from? I haven't seen anything to suggest any of these things.

More information and more precise confirmation is always a good thing, but everything that has been said so far leads to the use of a handful of SLAs while shape changed. Until it comes from Turbine I would be a bit skeptical about anyone saying that druids will be full-on casting while in forms.

[fatherpirate]

I think someone hit the nail on the head in saying.

He doesn't see the animal forms giving bigger bonuses than the necro forms do.

Most of the folks against druids casting in animal form are assuming some HUGE
stat buffs, huge base hit buff, huge ac buff, huge hp buff ect..
I don't see it happening.

If I can't throw from my spell list in animal...I will not use animal form.

WHY ? As a druid, I don't need to turn into an air elemental to melee...I can summon one
just fine and still retain my spells, armor and gear.

Druid is a PURE spell caster class. Unless your out of mana there is no reason what so ever
to change into a form that robs you of your spells. If your dreaming of building a druid
to become some terror melee beast...make a half orc barbarian...more effective.

But in the end all we can do is wait and see.

I am not worried druids will be too powerful...that is easy to fix, nerf a bit here and there
til it is right

now if you make them too gimp....THATS a problem
folks want refunds
nobody plays them...because they are gimp
no groups want them in their party..because they are gimp
and even if you 'fix' them, the damage is done... the bad rep kills the class.

For some odd reason in MMOs it is easier to take away, then to give.

well, they might throw a curveball at us and druids have almost no relation to
PnP ones...that would be funny.

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