Casual Elimination of Named or Rare Items

[Mastese]

Maybe it's just me, but it just doesn't settle well with me to observe the abundance of "Casual Farming for X, Y or Z" LFMs that seem to be the all the craze nowadays.
Casual difficulty was introduced as part of Update 3 to make DDO more accessible. More accessible to those lesser experienced/geared players who found Normal difficulty to be too challenging or even for those who simply preferred an exclusive soloing play-style that would be too limited without the support of others. I "got it" when they rolled Casual out, and think that there are those for whom it legitimately opens up opportunities that wouldn't be there otherwise. It can allow many to simply play and enjoy a sense of accomplishment or success without the worry of build optimization or overall advanced knowledge and skill. It allows others to smartly gain experience prior to taking on the responsibility that comes from higher difficulty team-oriented play.

I feel that Casual has evolved now with unintended consequences. It appears as if the majority use Casual as a utility to easily gather what I believe should be more exclusive named or rare items. The outcome of this trend being the wholesale devaluation of gear that once would have once been considered powerful and prized. Now these items are simply commonplace. As of late, ioun stones are ripe for the picking.

I realize that this is not the only example of practices that have eroded some of the "magic" that made DDO more special in the past. +3 Tomes and other gear for sale through the Turbine Store provide a similar affect. I also recognize that there have been plenty of other threads in the past that have covered this broader topic in full. Still, I would like to see some small steps made to push the balance of the game back in the right direction. I think that Casual difficulty, along with already providing reduced favor and xp, should also exclude the possibility of pulling named, rare or exclusive quest-specific items.

An honest days pay for an honest days work would be a good place to start to returning the value back to DDO in general.

-Mastese

[Sarisa]

A large part of it is that end reward lists cannot currently see what you ran the quest/chain under, and there are a huge number of "third chain rewards" available now.

This is also why you get level 6 grade loot after doing eDA.

[Ungood]

Casual difficulty was introduced as part of Update 3 to make DDO more accessible. More accessible to those lesser experienced/geared players who found Normal difficulty to be too challenging or even for those who simply preferred an exclusive soloing play-style that would be too limited without the support of others. I "got it" when they rolled Casual out, and think that there are those for whom it legitimately opens up opportunities that wouldn't be there otherwise.

(sic)

I think that Casual difficulty, along with already providing reduced favor and xp, should also exclude the possibility of pulling named, rare or exclusive quest-specific items

As you pointed out, this idea would hurt the very people Casual was Made for.

For that alone, I'd have to say.

/Not Signed.

But also it would have no effect as to why people are currently farming casual.

[Impaqt]

As you pointed out, this idea would hurt the very people Casual was Made for.

For that alone, I'd have to say.

/Not Signed.

But also it would have no effect as to why people are currently farming casual.

This...

plus, many named item drops already have a drastically reduced drop rate (Or none at all) on Casual Difficulty. You're not even guaranteed a pie piece on shroud flagging runs on Casual...

[sweez]

It appears as if the majority use Casual as a utility to easily gather what I believe should be more exclusive named or rare items. The outcome of this trend being the wholesale devaluation of gear that once would have once been considered powerful and prized. Now these items are simply commonplace. As of late, ioun stones are ripe for the picking.

I'm not sure what other 'exclusive' gear can be obtained from casual completions - most of the gear people would call exclusive comes pretty, well, exclusively from high-end epic content. Ioun stones are a special beast, and yeah I agree they're somewhat 'easy' to farm now, although I have to say that I like this situation much more then the one we had before.

People who farm for items, even on casual, should have more chance of obtaining those items than people who just sit in harbor chat for hours and snipe f2p newbies that pull ioun stones in the old, wildly random system.

[Systern]

Maybe it's just me, but it just doesn't settle well with me to observe the abundance of "Casual Farming for X, Y or Z" LFMs that seem to be the all the craze nowadays.
Casual difficulty was introduced as part of Update 3 to make DDO more accessible. More accessible to those lesser experienced/geared players who found Normal difficulty to be too challenging or even for those who simply preferred an exclusive soloing play-style that would be too limited without the support of others. I "got it" when they rolled Casual out, and think that there are those for whom it legitimately opens up opportunities that wouldn't be there otherwise. It can allow many to simply play and enjoy a sense of accomplishment or success without the worry of build optimization or overall advanced knowledge and skill. It allows others to smartly gain experience prior to taking on the responsibility that comes from higher difficulty team-oriented play.

I feel that Casual has evolved now with unintended consequences. It appears as if the majority use Casual as a utility to easily gather what I believe should be more exclusive named or rare items. The outcome of this trend being the wholesale devaluation of gear that once would have once been considered powerful and prized. Now these items are simply commonplace. As of late, ioun stones are ripe for the picking.

I realize that this is not the only example of practices that have eroded some of the "magic" that made DDO more special in the past. +3 Tomes and other gear for sale through the Turbine Store provide a similar affect. I also recognize that there have been plenty of other threads in the past that have covered this broader topic in full. Still, I would like to see some small steps made to push the balance of the game back in the right direction. I think that Casual difficulty, along with already providing reduced favor and xp, should also exclude the possibility of pulling named, rare or exclusive quest-specific items.

An honest days pay for an honest days work would be a good place to start to returning the value back to DDO in general.

-Mastese

You realize that this is a game and not a hedge fund, right? Other people don't need to have fun your way to have fun.

"Lighten up, Francis."

[ArcaneMelee]

This would just lead to further "nerfs" of challenging content.

No thanks - casual players want the good stuff too.

[Matuse]

Casual shouldn't increment the quest completions meter.

[psteen1]

Casual shouldn't increment the quest completions meter.

When your toon is high enough level, casual isn't any different than normal. Or hard. Or sometimes elite depending on what you are doing.

If you really want to limit loot, which I don't support, than the only real option is to prevent high level characters running quests that are too low for them.

[licho]

I understand from where is OP coming from, and agry than running 15x Mindsunder to get some nice loot is iffy.

This will be actually nice if the counter for 3rd competicion will tick only on normal and above, and if eCHest will have cr20 rather than cr7 and similar. However, there is much more work to do. And rather than toying with loot tables i wish devs will put effort into classes/races.

From the other side the problem may be that you need to run 20x some quest to get a single piece of transition gear which is not even so uber. Thinking about Dragontouched armor, to get desired settup you need to do at least 10x runs and this is not so much endgame.

[Kinerd]

From the other side the problem may be that you need to run 20x some quest to get a single piece of transition gear which is not even so uber. Thinking about Dragontouched armor, to get desired settup you need to do at least 10x runs and this is not so much endgame.

Ding ding ding ding! Absolutely right, cannot be argued. Grind does not make a game challenging, or exciting, or fulfilling. It is the opposite of all those things. Casual quests go only slightly faster than normal quests, but if you have to run the quest 100 times to get what you want, slightly adds up. (It adds up even faster if you are subjected to the unconscionably terrible design of phasing monsters, for instance in the Dreaming Dark quest.)

Less Grind Equals Good.

I have played for however many months without ever having an Ioun Stone, and I will play however many more in the same state. I have no interest and therefore no bias in this matter. I can see the only truth:

Less Grind Equals Good.

So Turbine may have killed two birds... with... one... ioun stone. </barf>

Oh, take a bow! The better to acknowledge the slow applause you have surely received.

[Matuse]

Less Grind Equals Good.

By that standard, every quest should offer ever possible reward every time.

The Shroud should drop 15-20 large ingredients per person from the part 5 chest.

That's less grind, so it must be good, right?

[Kinerd]

By that standard, every quest should offer ever possible reward every time.

The Shroud should drop 15-20 large ingredients per person from the part 5 chest.

That's less grind, so it must be good, right?

Your only recourse is to go to an unreasonable extreme, proving my point.

[Mastese]

Lots of good perspectives, as I anticipated. As a point of clarification though, my original point wasn't in criticizing farming, anyone's playstyle against my own, or the nerfing/alienation of new players who depend on Casual as a stepping off point.

What it really comes down to for me is the devaluation of loot as a whole, and a step (not the right or only one) that could help to bring back some of that value. Ioun stones are only one example of items that only months ago held great value due to their rarity (even persistent, continual farming could not produce dependable results, if any...same with +3 tomes).

Some feel that opening up availability like this helps newbies/lowbies by allowing them to keep up with the Jones’ and is a great equalizer. But I think that as more gear becomes more commonplace, it actually hurts them. How much more powerful was it for the same newbie/lowbie who would by chance, pull a Pale Lavender Ioun stone before they became actively farmable? Not so long ago it was fairly newsworthy that any toon would carry one. Lately, it's more newsworthy that you haven't gone out and farmed one (why wouldn't you?)

I agree, DDO is gear oriented, but the more all things become actively attainable through moderate means, the less diversity we end up enjoying for ourselves and others. Yes, there are a few meaningful alternatives to Minos Legens as headgear for some specific builds, but for the rest of us...is there really any reason not to be wearing one? Not really, it's an expectation...and it's availability in reality devalues the majority of anything else you would be crazy enough to put on your skull past level 12 (and not having one could get you kicked from your group).

Yes, just like the government prints more money and hands out more cash based on the theory it will keep a failing economy stimulated, DDO continues to churn out more gear and easier ways to attain it in order to continue to stimulate perhaps what is faltering interest in the game. I'm of the opinion that this philosophy may ultimately end up doing enough permanent and irrevocable damage that it will eventually be completely irreversible. "Gratz on that Mindfury Symbiont...'yawn'…”

I feel that in some ways, we're all blindly being funneled into the same exact builds with no individuality because most things are attainable through direct action. Through general leveling, you get buried in an avalanche of named loot with relatively little effort that it almost has you fooled that it's not junk for all of 30 seconds each time you pull one ("Whoa! A Phiarlan Spy Dagger!!!...oh, never mind…") I Would love to pull something someday that most people don't already have cluttering up their bank...in fact, I'd love if you pulled it instead of me just as much.

Instead of dumping more and more piles of gear on every street corner, maybe they should focus on adding Classes, Races and associated Pre's to provide more affective specializations and keep the gear, well, valuable and special.

-Mastese

[Matuse]

Your only recourse is to go to an unreasonable extreme, proving my point.

Your unequivocal position is that less grind is good. Therefore removing all grind is the most good. How is that an unreasonable extreme? You don't like grind. You think less grind is good. Therefore BY YOUR OWN VIEWPOINT you believe in removing all grind.

It's your point (your actual point, as opposed to whatever point is it you think you're making but aren't). I'm only illustrating how absurd it is.

[Kinerd]

Your unequivocal position is that less grind is good. Therefore removing all grind is the most good. How is that an unreasonable extreme?

You are assuming indefinite extension where none has been proposed, sir or madam. If I said "being obscenely overweight is bad, less weight is good", it would be unreasonable to claim I am for anorexia, starvation, etc.: zero weight. In the same way, when I specifically mention "run[ning] a quest 100 times" and say less is good, it is unreasonable to claim I am for running a quest once or less per item.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Your unequivocal position is that less grind is good. Therefore removing all grind is the most good. How is that an unreasonable extreme? You don't like grind. You think less grind is good. Therefore BY YOUR OWN VIEWPOINT you believe in removing all grind.

It's your point (your actual point, as opposed to whatever point is it you think you're making but aren't). I'm only illustrating how absurd it is.

Removing all grind doesn't mean removing all play, though.

Grind is when you play for the acquisition of a specific item/set of items rather than simply because the quest(s) that you're playing are fun.

Grind is certainly not a desirable quality in any MMO even if you might considered it a necessary quality.

[Matuse]

So then what is the standard? 1 run? 5? 25? You want less than 100, how about 98?

When does it start to be a grind?

[Lleren]

At my current burn out point, it starts being a grind on about the first run. When I'm enjoying the game, after about the first month for a Timer locked raid, or about the first week if doing something once a day, sooner if less restricted. However that is a personal scale for me.

To me "Grind" is when the game tests your time availability and tolerance for repetitive actions, not your various game related skills. Communication, leadership and teamwork among those related skills. If something is solo-able, it is more likely to be perceived as grindy, then if it takes a team effort.

Casual Farming is by my definition a Grind. Even on the first run, if you already know the quest.

p.s. Blizzard didn't make mmo's item based, mmo's already where.

[Talias006]

p.s. Blizzard didn't make mmo's item based, mmo's already where.

This is definitely true.
MMO's were itemized back in EQ and like many MMO's after, the story is not told solely with PC's, but with treasure.

If anything, Blizzard hastened this way of story-telling with the effulgent plethora of items in Diablo 2, which spawned a good many clones and similar themed RPGs.
Oblivion/Skyrim, anyone?