Leading a raid - mana pots reimbursment

[Cauthey]

If a raid goes south, and mnemonic potions are consumed, I will always pony up and replace potions. If I'm leading a raid, well... that's my responsibility, plain and simple.

But, even if I'm not leading the raid, I do it. Why? Because I want other healers to remember my assorted characters as being generous so that they will will think "hey, that guy reimbursed me potions - I want to group with that guy!"

Plus, it's simply the right thing to do.

[Qhualor]

Its not the responsibility of anyone to reimburse healers. Its a nice thing to do, but blue bars should know before joining any group, pug or not, that there is always a chance of pot chugging.

Its up to the healers/casters if they are willing to chug and how many they are willing to chug. A good thing to do before even starting a quest/raid is to talk to the group about possible reimbursement. If there is, i always feel leery about this because blu bars know they will get reimbursed so they could end up chugging like a lush.

Ive always reimbursed healers when i see them chug because they have joined a bad group that needs extra healing or die a lot, lag is bad or because, even if they didnt drink any, they did a great job healing.

Blue bars know that playing that type of caster class requires sp. They should know that there will be times to drink pots from time to time. They dont have to drink them at all, but sometimes even just 1 pot can make the difference in completion or fail.

Melees usually get the short end of the stick when talking about pot usage and expenses. Any smart melee brings pots when they join groups. When you see melees drinking pots and using clickies, that tells me that he is self sufficient and will do what he can to help out. Melees cant reliably self heal in a raid, but they can drink cure/sf pots. They can drink resist, rage and haste pots when they expire. Im sure any decent caster will refresh and normally fine refreshing if asked nicely.

If a raid/quest is going pretty much smoothly, than its only costing blue bars nothing other than components. Melees are actually spending plat on pots. They only thing that really evens out is repair bills, but how high of a bill is a blue bars in comparison to a melees? In the end, casters spend more in resources than melees in terms of value, but if quests go smooth enough, than melees usually do.

[Monkey-Boy]

it depends on the circumstances, I will not reimburse a bad healer. But I do feel that if I put together a group it is MY responsibility to cover the costs of it's completion.

Some people just blow through their blue-bar faster than Charlie Sheen blows through cocaine, healing over the other healer, etc . . . and just don't care or have any concept of SP-preservation at all. People like that no, I will not reimburse. I'll never put a GOOD healing intentionally is a situation where that will have to happen so if you wind up drinking 30 pots in a quest where the other healers drank 0-3 the problem wasn't the group.

Oh . . . and can we get a giant reminder for all new healers to put at least 2 ranks (4 preferably) into scroll-mastery? Heal scrolls are critical for the current end game and the difference in hitting a tank for 188 or 292 (Assuming 30% + 20% +10% healing amp, YMMV) is huge. The first sign of an inexperienced healer is weak scroll heals.

[Monkey-Boy]

Its not the responsibility of anyone to reimburse healers. Its a nice thing to do, but blue bars should know before joining any group, pug or not, that there is always a chance of pot chugging.

And people wonder why pugs have such a hard time finding healers

[dredre9987]

I leaded dozens of no pots pugs elite ToD and elite VoD (i.e.) pre U11. Why now I should run them on normal only because devs increased the raids difficulty only to force people to buy pots from the store? Pugging it's a nice thing if you're selective. But now pots are consumed even if the party is composed buy "uber" puggers.

You answered your own question...The raids are harder. If you can't do it don't.

[Xeraphim]

I never really sat and thought about how emotionally costly being neglected over using precious resources was. Then again, in every raid where pots are used I toon over to my blaster and reimburse unless someone else got to it first.

That is, I used to.

Now, I keep majors in my shared bank so I can hit the mailbox and see to that hJealer's damaged stash. My nuker now uses strictly Turbine Store Majors. It's a shame he's never been in eLoB or I would be a bit more notorious for never slacking off.

[Monkey-Boy]

I leaded dozens of no pots pugs elite ToD and elite VoD (i.e.) pre U11. Why now I should run them on normal only because devs increased the raids difficulty only to force people to buy pots from the store?

TOD/VOD got nerfed again in U12 and are not nearly as fierce as they were in U11. "Partial" pug no-pot runs are still doable.

[Cauthey]

Oh . . . and can we get a giant reminder for all new healers to put at least 2 ranks (4 preferably) into scroll-mastery? Heal scrolls are critical for the current end game and the difference in hitting a tank for 188 or 292 (Assuming 30% + 20% +10% healing amp, YMMV) is huge. The first sign of an inexperienced healer is weak scroll heals.

Definitely. That was why I, as a inexperienced healer (but willing to learn!), posted this thread here about Must Have Enhancement Lines. I know I'm not the best. I know my hotbars are all mangled and inefficiently configured from Alihana's experience healing the Shroud. But, I'm learning, and working to improve!

[Ormyrr]

We all know raids are much more mana consuming after the last updates.

As a consequence it’s not rare in hard/elite ToD, Abbot, hard/elite VoD, LoB, epic Queen and so on, that the divines need to use several mana pots (despite the party set-up is more than good).[/FONT]

Woot? Party set up more than good? Really?

IF you are using Sponge Bobs on main tanks, it's not a ideal party set up. I have healed hard/elite ToD,hard/elite VoD, normal/hard LoB: main tanks with just free capstone+ scroll healing, reason damage mitigation, usually in form of high AC.

If there is no IDEAL tank on your group setup , then there is Normal difficulty.

Ofc, things can go south, but this seems to me raidgroup running harder difficulty than there are suited.

-Brim-

[Monkey-Boy]

Definitely. That was why I, as a inexperienced healer (but willing to learn!), posted this thread here about Must Have Enhancement Lines. I know I'm not the best. I know my hotbars are all mangled and inefficiently configured from Alihana's experience healing the Shroud. But, I'm learning, and working to improve!

A few weeks ago I was scrolled in a VOD by a COMPLETIONIST FvS getting hit 188 a scroll.

You'd figure they'd have learned something in 12 lives

[Ormyrr]

Better solution - run a difficulty level suited to your group. For PUGs that means Normal for most of them, Epic for VON6/eChrono/eDQ

Then you won't use pots unless something unforseen happens.

This, 100% agree .

[Viisari]

As a consequence it’s not rare in hard/elite ToD, Abbot, hard/elite VoD, LoB, epic Queen and so on, that the divines need to use several mana pots (despite the party set-up is more than good).

Huh? When did this happen? With crappy groups yeah sure, but I've very rarely had a good group use pots in those unless something got messed up.

[Alavatar]

Huh. My guild must be old fashioned. Whenever we PUG out a healer spot we ask what resources they used and reimburse them as best we can.

I once joined an EChrono PUG with my healer. I had 200 scrolls and about 20 pots. I used all of my scrolls, but I refused to use more than 5 pots because after using all of those resources we only had the Conjoined Abashai down to 50% health.

Sometimes, groups need to just realize when the content is too hard for them and they need to fail.

[Ghibly]

You answered your own question...The raids are harder. If you can't do it don't.

Yes...but how do you know if you can do it or no? Suppose you're leading a PuG and you know 9 of the 12 people and the other 3 seem well geared form myDDO. This don't make you 100% sure something won't go wrong. In the other hand even an experienced player can do wrong sometimes...what I mean is that there's no room for an error in today's raids.

Woot? Party set up more than good? Really?

IF you are using Sponge Bobs on main tanks, it's not a ideal party set up. I have healed hard/elite ToD,hard/elite VoD, normal/hard LoB: main tanks with just free capstone+ scroll healing, reason damage mitigation, usually in form of high AC.

If there is no IDEAL tank on your group setup , then there is Normal difficulty.

Ofc, things can go south, but this seems to me raidgroup running harder difficulty than there are suited.

-Brim-

Brimb what do you mean with Sponge Bob tank? How many times, in hard Abbot, even with a very good pug and 3-4 divines, we have to use 4-5 major pots? I'm happy you're a so good player, but other players I (we) know, as good as you are, happen to use some mana pots sometimes. Ok maybe you're the best, you can solo scroll heal e-lob but that doesn't mean everyone has your same skills

If you talk of tanks, I remember some cases when the main has the aggro stolen from an equivalent DPS player (in case of hate tanking), for example. Sometimes this fact cause mana pots usage. Even if the tank is not Barbie or Ken or Crusty the Clown...

Huh? When did this happen? With crappy groups yeah sure, but I've very rarely had a good group use pots in those unless something got messed up.

If you guys are used to wait the party to be filled in Conglo it's ok for me, but I use to enjoy also with normal pugs with selected and known people just because this parties usually fill faster. Sometimes I don't have 1 hour to find the perfect VoD elite tank

I think DDO has been thought to be a PuG MMORPG.

But I could be wrong

EDIT: in these cases It would be nice that all the participants ask for a pot count/reimbursment or when the leader asks for the pot count it would be nice that people wouldn't fly away like the wind leaving the leader paying for everyone.

EDIT 2: anyway the point of my post wasn't how good are the pugs I use to lead but

...I noticed that a spontaneous mana pots reimbursement it’s quite rare unless I ask the party to do it...

and

Due to the fact that all the players in the group benefit from a raid completion (completion itself, loot) I think it will be a good act that everyone contributes to the party expenses

[Ormyrr]

Brimb what do you mean with Sponge Bob tank? How many times, in hard Abbot, even with a very good pug and 3-4 divines, we have to use 4-5 major pots? I'm happy you're a so good player, but other players I (we) know, as good as you are, happen to use some mana pots sometimes. Ok maybe you're the best, you can solo scroll heal e-lob but that doesn't mean everyone has your same skills

If you talk of tanks, I remember some cases when the main has the aggro stolen from an equivalent DPS player (in case of hate tanking), for example. Sometimes this fact cause mana pots usage. Even if the tank is not Barbie or Ken or Crusty the Clown...

You should read my post again.

Sponge tank has nothing for mitigate damage, example maxdps geared Barbarian, they are not ideal for tanking higher difficulties on the raids what i mentioned, and meantime high ac tank-character doesn't need much.

If the group is not suitable for elite or even hard, then choose normal, if i am leading and see that group doesn't look good at all, or even at keyroles, nothing shame get easy/fast completion on normal.
I can conquer harder raids later, when i have better comrades with me.

[Ghibly]

Sponge tank has nothing for mitigate damage, example maxdps geared Barbarian, they are not ideal for tanking higher difficulties on the raids what i mentioned, and meantime high ac tank-character doesn't need much.

I understand what you mean mate, but my reply is the same. Not always you have the time to wait for the perfect tank, so in some cases a maxdps geared Barbarian is the best for VoD elite and ToD elite, i.e...in this cases a good FVS is more than enough.
But sometimes things go south and what for me it's unacceptable is that the 90% of the party don't care of the pots count and after the rolls says "tnx for the run, tc"

EDIT: morevoer we cannot always play with the same 50ish 100% trustable players don't you think so?
I don't pretend to run a zero pots elite pug ToD...but I do pretended that if people join and take advange of the loot/have the chance to drop +4 tomes/increase their yugo favour for yugo pots...at least have the courtesy of reimburse the pots have been consumed.

[maddmatt70]

Raids are not always so straightforward at the moment. Lag is really bad in raids worse then it has been in quite sometime and this is per instance. Sometimes you get a good instance and sometimes you do not. This effects resources consumption and then there are strange things like the abbot tile puzzle, etc. Furthermore, with the changes to xp there is overall less interest in raiding which leads to less qualified raid applicants. All of this means is us raid leaders have to adjust.

[Stormraiser]

I understand what you mean mate, but my reply is the same. Not always you have the time to wait for the perfect tank, so in some cases a maxdps geared Barbarian is the best for VoD elite and ToD elite, i.e...in this cases a good FVS is more than enough.
But sometimes things go south and what for me it's unacceptable is that the 90% of the party don't care of the pots count and after the rolls says "tnx for the run, tc"

I think it is clear what he is saying: If you don't want to wait for a better group, then either run an easier difficulty, or if you must run on Elite, tell people that pots will be used ahead of time, and then you might get some back at the end.
It is kind of unfortunate that people expect divines to always bring and potentially expend resources [scrolls, not pots] same with arcanes who have to reconstruct a tank.
But very often you see people using their mana incorrectly. EDA, 2 arcane casters, they split the roles so one would focus on CC, one focused on instakills, extremely smooth run, lots of disco balls, held mobs, wails, etc. At the end, the arcane focused on killing led the kill counts with the CC focused arcane coming very close behind. Just to confirm, I say, no one had to use any pots, right? The CC arcane says he used 5! I felt bad so I gave him a pot, but that was excessive. No need to disco ball each portal or cast 3 dbs at once and also hold dancing mobs and try to keep up with the instakilling caster in a kill race.

[Stormraiser]

I think a good question is, at which point do you call it?
Just because I've saved up and have a certain amount of mana pots on me, doesn't mean I'm going to use them all on the raid if stupid stuff is happening. At which do you stop using resources and call it? A cleric or fvs that drank 30 pots and got the group through a terrible VOD doesn't appeal to me.

[Qhualor]

And people wonder why pugs have such a hard time finding healers

Actually, the biggest reasons why healers and in some cases casters are reluctant to join pugs is because:

1) inexperienced players regardless if there is 1 or 2 vets which can include under level, under gear and little to no quest tactics.

2) even if the group is full of vets, has gear, etc if they hardly play with each other or not at all, could be too many different playstyles and tactics clashing.

Pug groups have a bad rep because of those 2 biggest reasons. All of my toons are melees and even i think before i join a pug group. I take into account the quest and difficulty, who is in the group (do i know any of them) and how bad do i want to do that quest. Im sure healers think along the same lines as well.