Greensteel Handwraps: Not new news, just sign the **** thing... :)

[WruntJunior]

Excellent so I will craft that on to whatever ring I want and use it without a set? Cool, I can also use it to help break DR too? even better.

I agree there are certainly short comings with handwraps but your example is not comparative.

Ravager requires zero sacrifice to equip and is as good of damage as holy burst, generally speaking...and still allows +2 str or con to be crafted, among other things. As long as monks don't get the benefit of things like ravager, other melees shouldn't get the benefit of things like holy burst rings on their weapons.

The only real benefit holy burst has over ravager is dr breaking...but as holy burst is one of the best damage prefixes available, it effectively allows an extra alignment burst at best (sometimes not even that, depending on the boss).

Edit: I will admit that any ring holy bursted is easier to get than a ring of the ravager...but in the balance, the best dps boss-beaters for most characters are much easier to get than the best boss-beaters for monks (and in fact, the best boss-beaters for monks are still broken, as the greater bane portion does not correctly provide its +4 damage...which is a significant short for monks).

[noinfo]

Ravager requires zero sacrifice to equip and is as good of damage as holy burst, generally speaking...and still allows +2 str or con to be crafted, among other things. As long as monks don't get the benefit of things like ravager, other melees shouldn't get the benefit of things like holy burst rings on their weapons.

The only real benefit holy burst has over ravager is dr breaking...but as holy burst is one of the best damage prefixes available, it effectively allows an extra alignment burst at best (sometimes not even that, depending on the boss).

Edit: I will admit that any ring holy bursted is easier to get than a ring of the ravager...but in the balance, the best dps boss-beaters for most characters are much easier to get than the best boss-beaters for monks (and in fact, the best boss-beaters for monks are still broken, as the greater bane portion does not correctly provide its +4 damage...which is a significant short for monks).

Zero Sacrifice?

Not being able to use your PRE set bonus because it conflicts with it begs to differ:
Any pally

Anyone else gives up not 1 but 2 slots for that effect. That IS giving up something for it.

I am also not trying to call nerf nerf, if they leave it as is so be it, I think its a little much but not so much that I would sufferer forum rage over it. I would prefer a more even playing field of consistency though (and that would inlude currently non procing effects for unarmed)

[WruntJunior]

Zero Sacrifice?

Not being able to use your PRE set bonus because it conflicts with it begs to differ:
Any pally

Anyone else gives up not 1 but 2 slots for that effect. That IS giving up something for it.

I am also not trying to call nerf nerf, if they leave it as is so be it, I think its a little much but not so much that I would sufferer forum rage over it. I would prefer a more even playing field of consistency though (and that would inlude currently non procing effects for unarmed)

Outside of a KOTC paladin (3d6 damage instead of 2d6 on their set, but limited on enemies), for dps mode no other items come close to Colethenis's Belt and Ring of the Ravager for dps. It is common sense to equip these items, not a sacrifice.

Beyond that, if you're not thinking that greensteel wraps would make monks OP with the current ToD rings, then you essentially want nerfs for the sake of nerfs. If you do think greensteel wraps would make monks OP, I'd advise you to get some +5 Anarchic Burst (silver) handwraps of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane and run the numbers between them and lit 2 wraps (the best dps wraps). On a light monk, they're almost the same...on a dark monk, no contest.

[noinfo]

Outside of a KOTC paladin (3d6 damage instead of 2d6 on their set, but limited on enemies), for dps mode no other items come close to Colethenis's Belt and Ring of the Ravager for dps. It is common sense to equip these items, not a sacrifice.

Beyond that, if you're not thinking that greensteel wraps would make monks OP with the current ToD rings, then you essentially want nerfs for the sake of nerfs. If you do think greensteel wraps would make monks OP, I'd advise you to get some +5 Anarchic Burst (silver) handwraps of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane and run the numbers between them and lit 2 wraps (the best dps wraps). On a light monk, they're almost the same...on a dark monk, no contest.

Really so 2d6 now trumps everything in TOD sets now? AND it is nothing to give up a slot that could be used for something else?
Belt can be GS misc slot, can be spare hand or any other epic belt or item etc, giving up a slot for that 2d6 is most certainly an issue and you can't support a claim otherwise. Other TOD set items give things OTHER than dps which can be useful.
As for other wraps, cool go ahead and craft a beater for every boss type.

And to clarrify, the horse has already bolted in terms of gs wraps and TOD rings with the coming of alchemical. IMO and I will state that I am far from an expert the very fact that these things allow for stacking is an issue. I am less concerned about it than I am about other areas in the game but since this post was clearly about GS wraps and why we don't have them it is simple, we were given TOD rings instead. I would have prefered GS wraps over TOD rings for consistency but now its too late and I don't think adding GS would fix it.

[jojoalva69]

Leave ToD rings, eliminate the idea of GS wraps, and move on...

Not to mention that would hurt what a Ninja Spy is... Quite badly.
Almost obsolete badly...

/not signed, nerf wars are no fun when it's a one sided battle.
(Monks lose and everyone else wins. I don't think I like that idea at all)

[noinfo]

If you do think greensteel wraps would make monks OP, I'd advise you to get some +5 Anarchic Burst (silver) handwraps of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane and run the numbers between them and lit 2 wraps (the best dps wraps). On a light monk, they're almost the same...on a dark monk, no contest.

So what you are really making a case for is that TOD in general make all wraps OP?

[WruntJunior]

So what you are really making a case for is that TOD in general make all wraps OP?

How on earth did you get that from what I said?

[noinfo]

How on earth did you get that from what I said?

Beyond that, if you're not thinking that greensteel wraps would make monks OP with the current ToD rings, then you essentially want nerfs for the sake of nerfs. If you do think greensteel wraps would make monks OP, I'd advise you to get some +5 Anarchic Burst (silver) handwraps of Greater Lawful Outsider Bane and run the numbers between them and lit 2 wraps (the best dps wraps). On a light monk, they're almost the same...on a dark monk, no contest.

It not exactly uncommon knowledge that Holyburst weapon of whatever outsiderbane is the best dps weapons vs most other types of weapons which is what I believe what you intended to point out. However your example pointed out monk wraps can be Anachaic Burst, still break DR due to ring for extra bursting goodness and have (if they wish a electric burst on the other ring.

[WruntJunior]

It not exactly uncommon knowledge that Holyburst weapon of whatever outsiderbane is the best dps weapons vs most other types of weapons which is what I believe what you intended to point out. However your example pointed out monk wraps can be Anachaic Burst, still break DR due to ring for extra bursting goodness and have (if they wish a electric burst on the other ring.

On handwraps in air stance (the highest dps stance), assuming you're hitting on a 2 and confirming on a 1, burst over normal for alignment adds about 1 damage per swing. That means you're essentially getting almost the exact same benefit any other melee can get from the ravager set with +2 str on the ring... so under the best circumstances, melees tend to get a very similar benefit. The free dr/good breaking is a decent boost...but if free dr breaking was my only concern, I'd have no argument, as a shintao with the shintao set would be very well-off in that regard whereas a dark monk would be in the same boat as most other dps for dr breaking...with the added caveat of pulling silver handwraps being near-mythical, whereas I can barely give away other types of silver weapons.

I really don't get where you're saying there's any real OPness here.

[whitehawk74]

well i havent got positive rep for this thread, and I dont post threads to gain rep.
I hand it out all the time, probably too generously, but its not like its money

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

no one looking at base dmg?
GS handwraps would have no extra base dmg like EVERY OTHER WEAPON GS/alchemical get
nor do we get ups with our "epic" handwraps

sooo your ESOS has what base die? handwraps should get 1/2 that? there now were balanced

[sephiroth1084]

Fix handwraps bugs.
Greensteel wraps need a lot of other things to be done first, like making changes in one way or another to ToD rings, and addressing existing bugs with handwraps, since greensteel is likely to exacerbate some of those issues.

And most other melee get to use that slot for +2 str, +2 con or healing amp. It is powerful on a monk, but they do give up something for that power.

+2 Str is pretty poor when stacked up next to a bursting ring. +2 Con is as well, I'd argue, but it's not a direct comparison and as we get more content where elemental bursts are insignificant (Lord of Blades, for example), having a second ring with an exceptional stat or healing amp will be more common. Once we get the ability to wipe and recraft rings (being discussed at least, if not already in development by the devs), that will become even more true.

Other melees get ravager, which is also 2d6.

That is almost certainly a bug, or should be considered so. However, remember that a monk could have +3d6 on all their attacks and +3d6, +1d10 on their crits while using a Holy of Greater Bane that bypasses DR. That is a lot more significant than the Ravager set bonus, +2 Str and +2 Con in most situations.

If it were deemed that greensteel wraps were really important, I would suggest that the ToD rings be changed to grant the Blast effect (greensteel tier III--extra damage on crit and vorpal) instead of Burst (extra damage on hit and crit), while still allowing Good Blast and Unholy Blast (or whatever it's called) to align your attacks. I think that would be a rather large penalty to many players, though, and I don't think that greensteel wraps should be made without addressing the ToD rings. I'm also against simply allowing the ToD ring bursts to work for all melee, as that would in effect erase the other possible enchantments on the rings for most melee, as Holy Burst is too hard to pass up if you care about DPS (and would represent yet another proxy nerf to the paladin capstone, but that's a minor point).

[WruntJunior]

Fix handwraps bugs.
Greensteel wraps need a lot of other things to be done first, like making changes in one way or another to ToD rings, and addressing existing bugs with handwraps, since greensteel is likely to exacerbate some of those issues.


+2 Str is pretty poor when stacked up next to a bursting ring. +2 Con is as well, I'd argue, but it's not a direct comparison and as we get more content where elemental bursts are insignificant (Lord of Blades, for example), having a second ring with an exceptional stat or healing amp will be more common. Once we get the ability to wipe and recraft rings (being discussed at least, if not already in development by the devs), that will become even more true.

That is almost certainly a bug, or should be considered so. However, remember that a monk could have +3d6 on all their attacks and +3d6, +1d10 on their crits while using a Holy of Greater Bane that bypasses DR. That is a lot more significant than the Ravager set bonus, +2 Str and +2 Con in most situations.

If it were deemed that greensteel wraps were really important, I would suggest that the ToD rings be changed to grant the Blast effect (greensteel tier III--extra damage on crit and vorpal) instead of Burst (extra damage on hit and crit), while still allowing Good Blast and Unholy Blast (or whatever it's called) to align your attacks. I think that would be a rather large penalty to many players, though, and I don't think that greensteel wraps should be made without addressing the ToD rings. I'm also against simply allowing the ToD ring bursts to work for all melee, as that would in effect erase the other possible enchantments on the rings for most melee, as Holy Burst is too hard to pass up if you care about DPS (and would represent yet another proxy nerf to the paladin capstone, but that's a minor point).

I really think greensteel handwraps are so unimportant that the concern can largely be dropped both ways - for leveling, +10 stunners are amazing...at cap, alchemicals (especially with +10 stunning from air 1) are amazing. It's such a non-issue, really...especially as for the dark monks, the best dps greensteel wraps would already be behind alchemicals, which can have silver....and the dark monks already have the highest dps wraps available through cannith crafting for specific enemies (which makes it much easier for me, as I have been trying (and failing) to collect the best greater bane wraps for about a year and a half now...still haven't SEEN banishing of greater ele bane), where as alchemicals offer the best general dps while, at tier 2, can be effectively +11. Between Cannith Crafting, Challenges, and Alchemicals, the need for greensteel wraps is pretty far gone.

[Avidus]

Just an fyi for everyone, ravager not working with handswraps is WAI. Here's a qoute from Eladrin

In DDO, we have some distinctions between "unarmed", "melee", "ranged" (sometimes called "missile"), and "thrown" attacks.

Some effects, such as the Tower of Despair ring damage effects, only apply to unarmed combat. Others apply to a subset of the attack types or to all of them. The Ravager set bonus was set up to apply only to melee (weapon) attacks.

It's generally up to the designer of an item or effect as to what they want it to apply to, though some of those attack types have more versatility behind the scenes than others.

I do agree that it should be made clearer in the item descriptions what these things apply to.

And here's one from KoboldTerror

The Ravager's Cut effect ... requires a melee weapon and the proc is slashing damage. Unarmed does not count as a melee weapon.