Artificer - Bastard Sword?

[LeLoric]

I haven't made this specific build on live but I did run it through three lives on lamannia whenthey had the 1000% xp. I actually found it pretty strong although as mentioned above there is some aiming issues with some runearms in melee range but you can accomodate once you know how each works.

A guildy followed this build for an artificer tr life and found it worked well on live too.

The biggest benefit of this build is you get the runearm added dmg to your sword for both main attacks as well as all glancing blows. Ravager the same.



human artificer

32 point

16 str
8 dex
16 con
16 int
8 wis
10 cha

36 point

16 str
8 dex
16 con
18 int
8 wis
8 cha

Feats

Human THF

1 Toughness
3 Evocation focus
6 Greater evocation focus
9 ITHF
12 IC: slash
15 Gthf
18 Power attack

Artificer bonus

4 Least mark
8 quicken
12 Maximize
16 Heighten
20 Empower

Enh

Imp umd IV 3
Artificer rune arm Iv 10
Artificer dmg boost II 3
xbow attack I 1
xbow dmg I 2
scroll mastery IV 10
Storm manip VII 7
Charged spell casting 1
Deadly shocks 1
Force manip 7
deadly kinetics 1
kinetic spellcasting 1
Battle engineer I 4
Arcane empowerment 2
Improved recovery II 6
Artificer int III 12
Human toughness 3
Human adaptability 2
Human greater adaptability 4

Gear

45 hp earthgrab helm
Epic charged gauntlets w/ gfl
Epic envenomed cloak w/ Heavy fort
Epic bracers of wind w/ +6 dex +1 exc int
Epic boots of corrosion w/ +1 exc con toughness
triple air sp belt w/ +6 cha skills 300 sp/ravager belt
tharnes
Shintao neck
Stalker ring tier 3 w/ +1 exc cha and +6 cha/Shintao ring w/ 20% amp
Ravager ring w/ +2 str
Litany of the dead
Tovens hammer w/ +2 int and transform kinetic energy and something crafted/lucid dreams
Epic chimera's fang w/ good augment
Epic illusionists robe w/ Good luck

Final stats

str 16 base +2 tome+3 profane+1 enh+1 exc+2 exc+7 item=32+2 ship +2 yugo+2 rage=38
dex 8 base+2 tome +6 item=16+2 ship=18
Con 16 base +2 tome +7 item+1 exc+1 enh+1 litany=28+2 ship +2 rage +2 yugo=34
Int 18 base+5 levelup +3 tome +7 item+3 exc+3 enh+1 litany=40 +2 ship=42
Cha 8 base +2 tome +6 item +1 exc+1 litany=18

Hit points

120 artificer
180 con
20 heroic
10 draconic
45 shroud
30 gfl
20 touhgness
22 toughness feat
30 toughness enh

477

20 ship
20 rage

517

40 yugo

557

UMD

23 ranks
3 enhancement
1 skill mastery
2 knowledge
2 good luck
4 greater heroism
4 cha mod

39

6 cha skills item

45

[Zyerz]

I don't think anyone has made an impressive melee-ficer yet. Hope to eventually be proven wrong.

I've been working on a TWF arti. It's working fine as a melee DPS support role. Sure, you trade in runearms and ranged weps for dual longswords, but you get that +2 to your weps, always have DR and extra dmg spells, and a nice fighting companion. Although, its a feat heavy build, so its taking a while to properly build. I'm thinking of splashing 2 levels of monk for the evasion, AC and stances to boost stats that I had to sacrifice when building the toon. Its still in the prototype phase. Thinking this build will function better if the toon is a 2nd life TR.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I've been working on a TWF arti. It's working fine as a melee DPS support role. Sure, you trade in runearms and ranged weps for dual longswords, but you get that +2 to your weps, always have DR and extra dmg spells, and a nice fighting companion. Although, its a feat heavy build, so its taking a while to properly build. I'm thinking of splashing 2 levels of monk for the evasion, AC and stances to boost stats that I had to sacrifice when building the toon. Its still in the prototype phase. Thinking this build will function better if the toon is a 2nd life TR.

TWF'ing Artificer only works on a heavy splash like 7 Artificer/6 ranger/7 fighter, otherwise rune arm is the way to go. You can probably go as high as 9 for Lightning Motes.

[Carpone]

Melee artificers just don't mesh well with the game as it's designed today. Maybe we'll see that change with the prestige system overhaul.

[psteen1]

Melee artificers just don't mesh well with the game as it's designed today. Maybe we'll see that change with the prestige system overhaul.

why do you think so? Everyone else on this thread seems to be doing well.

[goodspeed]

Ive seen a few melee arti's in game. One in shroud, the others I usually saw in MA. All preformed exceptionally well. I think 1 was a human as well.

Though for melee I'd say the WF would fit the best mayhaps. Especially with them getting stelward. Dwarfs get it as well but ur not really getting anything for the tradeoff. A human can get it but it would cost more points and lets face it, if theirs one thing arti's don't have room for it's anything that requires more action points.

[sirgog]

I haven't made this specific build on live but I did run it through three lives on lamannia whenthey had the 1000% xp. I actually found it pretty strong although as mentioned above there is some aiming issues with some runearms in melee range but you can accomodate once you know how each works.

A guildy followed this build for an artificer tr life and found it worked well on live too.

The biggest benefit of this build is you get the runearm added dmg to your sword for both main attacks as well as all glancing blows. Ravager the same.



human artificer
(build details)

Did you ever get it to perform to the point that you would be happy to take it into all of the epic raids to play a similar role to a typical warchanter (buff, melee, break off from combat for utility/healing if needed)?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Ive seen a few melee arti's in game. One in shroud, the others I usually saw in MA. All preformed exceptionally well. I think 1 was a human as well.

Though for melee I'd say the WF would fit the best mayhaps. Especially with them getting stelward. Dwarfs get it as well but ur not really getting anything for the tradeoff. A human can get it but it would cost more points and lets face it, if theirs one thing arti's don't have room for it's anything that requires more action points.

Dwarf actually isn't a bad choice for a melee artificer as you can use dwarf axes with the use of the masters touch spell putting them on equal footing feat wise as a human but with more HP and better saves which are two vital things for a melee Artificer. Heal amp, versatility and cannith marks are preferable though, IMO.

Sirgog: I'll be close to 500 HP on my human melee artificer and well over with a yugo pot so don't see any reason I won't be able to do any raid filling a number of roles (healer, buffer, kiter). +8 Epic Chimera's Fang with GTHF'ing should be decent DPS when combined with GSF:Evo and Lucids or Toven's (have Lucid, expect to see MA LFM's lol).

[sirgog]

Dwarf actually isn't a bad choice for a melee artificer as you can use dwarf axes with the use of the masters touch spell putting them on equal footing feat wise as a human but with more HP and better saves which are two vital things for a melee Artificer. Heal amp, versatility and cannith marks are preferable though, IMO.

Sirgog: I'll be close to 500 HP on my human melee artificer and well over with a yugo pot so don't see any reason I won't be able to do any raid filling a number of roles (healer, buffer, kiter). +8 Epic Chimera's Fang with GTHF'ing should be decent DPS when combined with GSF:Evo and Lucids or Toven's (have Lucid, expect to see MA LFM's lol).

What I meant was 'will it perform to the level of a comparably geared different type of toon'.

Will it do DPS comparable to, say, a Warchanter with equivalent gear (say epic antique greataxe or 20/t3 epic elemental greataxe of fire with Good augment)? (Utility is pretty similar there).

[wax_on_wax_off]

What I meant was 'will it perform to the level of a comparably geared different type of toon'.

Will it do DPS comparable to, say, a Warchanter with equivalent gear (say epic antique greataxe or 20/t3 epic elemental greataxe of fire with Good augment)? (Utility is pretty similar there).

I don't know, math isn't my strong suit.

I was thinking about comparisons today actually. Firstly, combat wise, such a build might be best compared with a tempest ranger considering the mix of melee and ranged combat. Presumably not as much pure DPS but then again ranger class is certainly lacking at the moment so I wouldn't know.

In terms of utility bard and artificer are very comparable. In terms of DPS though, some thoughts regarding a pure twitch THF'ing warchanter vs a DPS focused melee artificer:
1. THF'ing Bard usually won't have THF'ing feats while an Artificer can take them benefiting from glancing blows (but competing against twitch attack speed).
2. Big weapon = +5 to power attack, 1.5 to strength modifier vs 2-12 or 2-16 rune arm imbue (which applies to the builds numerous glancing blows 100% of the time).

Attack speed is important too, looking at 118.5 attacks/minute for the bard assuming haste and DP and 102.2 for the artificer (I think - I've read that single handed fighting follows TWF'ing progression (though obviously without offhand attacks)).

Things are comparable here but in favour of the warchanter. However, when you add the 250-300+ rune arm DPS I'm fairly certain that the warchanter will be left behind.

Finally, you have to consider that this artificer is still intelligence based in comparison to the strength based warchanter which has an impact on utility. Still, a well built strength based pure warchanter can raid heal and provide epic CC in the form of OID and Fascinate so it's possible it still ends up a wash.

I don't know if Epic Chimera's Fang is the highest DPS weapon for a melee artificer, it just works nicely for me to save feat slots and to take advantage of my crafting dragonmarks. A warforged (or human or dwarf) melee artificer (possibly with a 2 monk splash) might better benefit from an Epic Templar's Retribution/Justice, LitII GS Bastard Sword/Dwarven Axe or Alchemical Earth/Air Bastard Sword/Dwarven Axe.

[krogyy]

What I meant was 'will it perform to the level of a comparably geared different type of toon'.

Will it do DPS comparable to, say, a Warchanter with equivalent gear (say epic antique greataxe or 20/t3 epic elemental greataxe of fire with Good augment)? (Utility is pretty similar there).

I've just ran a quick dps calculation. My results are that a pure artificer with most melee gear but without songs will deal a bit more than 190 dps vs 0% fort with a lit II (note that the build i considered is dwarf and is missing both I.C and P.A, a dragonmarked human would get even better dps with an efang). On the other hand, an helf warchanter with a esos, songs and rogue dilly will have ~330 dps.

Now, if you assume max force enhanchements but high saves so that mobs save on a 2, lucid dreams will deal ~130 dps alone. so in the best case scenario a warchanter has marginally better dps than a melee arty, if foes start failing more the arty will come ahead for as much as 100 dps more.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I've just ran a quick dps calculation. My results are that a pure artificer with most melee gear but without songs will deal a bit more than 190 dps vs 0% fort with a lit II (note that the build i considered is dwarf and is missing both I.C and P.A, a dragonmarked human would get even better dps with an efang). On the other hand, an helf warchanter with a esos, songs and rogue dilly will have ~330 dps.

Now, if you assume max force enhanchements but high saves so that mobs save on a 2, lucid dreams will deal ~130 dps alone. so in the best case scenario a warchanter has marginally better dps than a melee arty, if foes start failing more the arty will come ahead for as much as 100 dps more.

So, my cannith dragonmarked artificer with eFang, max int and reasonable DPS gear will have considerably better DPS than an eSoS wielding warchanter bard ... Fine with me.

[donblas]

My experience only goes up to level 12 and my arti wasn't intended as a melee as i hadn't realised that rune arms had some interesting extras - like Chimera's Beath allowing proficiency in Bastard Sword.

So when i got one I investigated average damage output (excluding criticals) with my level 12 non-optimised arti

4 +4 Sword
3.5 Flaming
3.5 Festival frost
3.5 Elemental weapon
3.5 Pure Good
5.5 bastard Sword
5 Rune arm
11 Insightful damage
2 Battle engineer

So that's 24-59, and average of 41.5, with +19 to hit.

246 HP (gimped by being drow ) , AC39 (not great), heavy fort, invulnerability

Backed up with Chimera's breath with superior potency.

So considering that I've swept through some quests without using my crossbow, I strongly suspect that it is possible to make a pretty useful melee artificer if one put some thought into it.

It's also a darn sight easier to get banishers, disrupters, smiters, etc in bastard sword form than as repeating crossbows.

I know most of these forum posts concentrate on end game but I thought low-level input is interesting too.

[Hamlin]

Hey guys, I have a melee artificer who's level 10 now. Using the bastard sword/chimeras breath combo. Love the buffs, UMD and extra time on shield/blur wands and clickies is awesome. But.

I am REALLY starting to hate the word reflex.

See, my intention was to fight one handed with b-sword with blasts of lightning from chimeras breath mixed in. With an int of 20 or 22 at level 10, I can't hit anything for full damage with my rune arm.

I started with a base int of 12 or 14 (can't remember)

Level-up points were put into STR.

I ate a +2 int tome already.

What is the minimum int needed to get full use out of a rune arm? Is it max INT or bust with these things?

[DrawingGuy]

I've been working on a TWF arti. It's working fine as a melee DPS support role. Sure, you trade in runearms and ranged weps for dual longswords, but you get that +2 to your weps, always have DR and extra dmg spells, and a nice fighting companion. Although, its a feat heavy build, so its taking a while to properly build. I'm thinking of splashing 2 levels of monk for the evasion, AC and stances to boost stats that I had to sacrifice when building the toon. Its still in the prototype phase. Thinking this build will function better if the toon is a 2nd life TR.

I apologize, but I see 0 reason to go full TWF arti over Rogue. Rogues can scroll use for DR on the bosses, and bring proper beaters for everything else... so DR isn't an issue. You already get the evasion on pure. And the sneak attack is 100000 times better than the +2 you battle master you gain. In short, if you're not using your Rune Arm, why are you playing arti?

As for a melee arti, you can certainly build a viable one. However can you build one that's as good as an xbow build? I personally don't think so. With their ability to stack multiple damages with buffs and rune arms (including banishing, disruption, etc); faster attacks of holy burst + bane + elemental/deadly + rune arm would take quite a massive base attack to make up for in DPS (and my GS xbow does 100 base damage *per* bolt). Especially after considering xbow enhancement lines and endless fusilage. I used to carry a stack of melee weaps... disrupters, smiters, etc... and they were ALWAYS a dps loss over my xbow even on mobs that even took my base damage to 0.

[wax_on_wax_off]

As for a melee arti, you can certainly build a viable one. However can you build one that's as good as an xbow build? I personally don't think so. With their ability to stack multiple damages with buffs and rune arms (including banishing, disruption, etc); faster attacks of holy burst + bane + elemental/deadly + rune arm would take quite a massive base attack to make up for in DPS (and my GS xbow does 100 base damage *per* bolt). Especially after considering xbow enhancement lines and endless fusilage. I used to carry a stack of melee weaps... disrupters, smiters, etc... and they were ALWAYS a dps loss over my xbow even on mobs that even took my base damage to 0.

The jury is still out for me on this one.

Here are my initial thoughts:
Low levels (1-9): spare spell slots for party healing/offensive spells (due to scrolling insightful strikes/damage/elemental weapons), crossbow still being useful (not much difference on crossbow usefulness at low levels between the builds) and AoE Rune Arms being the best which synergises with bastard sword nicely brings me to the conclusion that melee is slightly better at low levels in a group but crossbow is stronger for soloing.

Mid levels (10-14): here I felt that melee damage was lacking due to my companions picking up their greensteel weapons. The AoE Rune Arm/Bastard Sword combo gets very strong with Lightning Motes and Lore becoming available. Melee damage starts to drop off a little (though possibly just due to lacking GS).

High levels to cap (15-19): IPS and BB give crossbow the clear advantage here, there is just a lot of synergy between the two.

Raiding and epics (20): BB and kiting becomes more situational; if you're kiting in an epic then often you are reducing party DPS as melee characters aren't connecting. A less sturdy ranged character will have less opportunity to discharge full rune arm blasts due to not taking aggro so well. Epic Chimera's Fang is a very strong weapon and glancing blows in general should give a melee build the edge in DPS (though I'd be happy to see numbers either way).

Just imo, anyway, still a couple of levels until cap so see what it's like when I get there.

[Blank_Zero]

Tell ya what Wowo, let's just compare kill counts again.

Edit: On a more serious note, I think you are overestimating the rune arm damage, considering the charge time, fire time, then cool down time, then charge again. 1 cycle is over 5 seconds easily, even if comparing from shot to shot. I won't say it's not an amazing thing to be able to shoot without kiting (something I hate about my Arty and may end up swapping out during TRs), but saying an Arty will come 100DPS over the Warchanter with the eSoS is a little far. I'd like to see some actual numbers there, rather than "I ran the numbers". Numbers don't lie, but what numbers you use in the first place is highly subjective.

edit2:
Here are some numbers that Varz of Wanderlust (Khyber) ran for me on a Half Orc variant of my Bards last life build. Note, this was done before a lot of the current changes were put into place, but the numbers will be close to the same on a HOrc at least.

Made an error with the glancing blows numbers.

Here is a better/updated version similar to numbers I did for the Ranger splash Blitz: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...&postcount=328.

These are somewhat max figures - require a full 20 Warchanter with IC. More likely to lose -3 dmg with only self-buff IC. Madstone also not in the mix.

HO Bard 14/4 Fighter/2 Barb, 34pt

STR 20 +2 +5(lvl) +7(item) +1(fgt) +2(HO) +3(excp) +2(ship) = 42 +2(rage sp) +6 (HO Rage) = 50 +2(tome/litany) = 52
DEX  8 +2
CON 16 +2         +6(item) +1(barb)       +3(exp) +2(ship) +2(rage sp) +4(Rage) = 36 => 234sec or 3:54 Rage
INT  8
WIS  8
CHA 12

Barbarian Power Attack I +2dmg THF -1tohit
HO Power Attack III +6dmg THF, -3tohit
Paladin Past Life +3dmg (luck - doesnt with prayer)
Orcish Melee Damage II: +4 dmg for THF

Inspire Courage: +6 dmg/+6tohit Song.

TOHIT 
10 Bard BAB
 6 Fighter/Barb BAB
21 @52 STR
10 SOS
 1 Haste
 2 Shintao
 4 GH
 2 Spectrals/etc
 8 Song
-9 PA
=55


Normal:
+31 @50 STR
+18 HO3+Barb1 PA (10+2+6)
 +4 Claw Set
 +2 Encrusted
 +2 Kyosho
 +4 HO THF Dmg
 +9 Max IC
 +3 Pally PL
 +1  Litany
=74
+10   eSOS
+17.5 eSOS Base
=101.5
  1 Force Ritual


Glancing Blows: 
101.50 Base
  x50% Dmg per glancing blow
=50.75
  1    Force Ritual
  x19%
 -15  DR
=35.94
  x75% Attacks per swing if GTHF
=26.955

Non-Crit (2-14)
101.5 Base
  1   Force Ritual
=102.5
 -15   DR
 +26.955
=114.455 damage


Crit (15-20)
101.50 Base
 10    Seeker
=111.50
   x3  CM
=334.50
  1    Force Ritual
=335.50
 -15   DR
 +26.955
=347.455 damage



1. 0%Fort, 0DR, (114.455 + 15 + 15*.75) *.65 + (347.455 + 15 + 15*.75)*.30 = 203.570
2. 50%Fort, 15DR, 114.455 *(.65 +.15) + 347.455 *(.30 - .15) = 143.682


 Haste = 15%
 Haste Boost IV = 25%
 Total = 40%

86.63 * (1 + .9615 * .4) = 119.9479 swings/min

1. 24,417.79 / 60 = 406.96 dps
2. 17,234.35 / 60 = 287.24 dps

[wax_on_wax_off]

Tell ya what Wowo, let's just compare kill counts again.

Edit: On a more serious note, I think you are overestimating the rune arm damage, considering the charge time, fire time, then cool down time, then charge again. 1 cycle is over 5 seconds easily, even if comparing from shot to shot. I won't say it's not an amazing thing to be able to shoot without kiting (something I hate about my Arty and may end up swapping out during TRs), but saying an Arty will come 100DPS over the Warchanter with the eSoS is a little far. I'd like to see some actual numbers there, rather than "I ran the numbers". Numbers don't lie, but what numbers you use in the first place is highly subjective.

edit2:
Here are some numbers that Varz of Wanderlust (Khyber) ran for me on a Half Orc variant of my Bards last life build. Note, this was done before a lot of the current changes were put into place, but the numbers will be close to the same on a HOrc at least.

Cforce's maximising rune arm DPS thread has all the numbers that you need for rune arm, the contribution is very significant (and why I'm taking SF/GSF: Evocation).

Regarding kill counts until you got your LitII Falchion we were pretty even iirc and after I'd have at least half as much but half the time I was dropping into a healer role to keep your gimp ass up anyway >< Now that I have Blade Barrier? Good luck.

If/when you accept the DPS possible from rune arm then the question left is how much the bastard sword contributes, obviously a single handed weapon is lower than a two handed weapon but it'd have to be half as much to see lower DPS overall in all likelihood.

I'd love someone to run the numbers on my Typhon build, I'd be very curious.

[krogyy]

Tell ya what Wowo, let's just compare kill counts again.

Edit: On a more serious note, I think you are overestimating the rune arm damage, considering the charge time, fire time, then cool down time, then charge again. 1 cycle is over 5 seconds easily, even if comparing from shot to shot. I won't say it's not an amazing thing to be able to shoot without kiting (something I hate about my Arty and may end up swapping out during TRs), but saying an Arty will come 100DPS over the Warchanter with the eSoS is a little far. I'd like to see some actual numbers there, rather than "I ran the numbers". Numbers don't lie, but what numbers you use in the first place is highly subjective.

edit2:
Here are some numbers that Varz of Wanderlust (Khyber) ran for me on a Half Orc variant of my Bards last life build. Note, this was done before a lot of the current changes were put into place, but the numbers will be close to the same on a HOrc at least.

regarding the rune arm i considered a shot every 6 seconds as in the thread by cforce. for a maxed lucid dream this will yield 257 dps if it is saved only on a 20, 138 dps if it is always saved but on a 1.

about the numbers you quoted, i can spot some mistakes and bad assumptions. with 4 fgt levels you have only haste boost II (hence 20% not 25%). on top of that, considering rage being on is unrealistic with only 2 levels of barb.

at the end i reran my numbers (i use A-O calculator): the pure helf warchanter i considered in the previous post will get 327 and 247 dps vs 0% and 50% fort respectively. On the other hand your build will get 352 and 273 dps in those situations. note i didn't add the rage, if you really want to add that you get 370, 287 dps. i also considered twitching, without it your build is less effective.

so at the end i stand on my claim that under reasonable assumptions melee artificers deal more dps than warchanters.

Edit: forgot horc bonus damage with two handers.

Edit2: on the other hand i also underestimated the arty dps. i didn't add eclaw, shintao nor litany since i evaluate my builds with average equipment not top-end. with those factored in the melee arty will get 231, 198 dps vs 0% and 50% fort. addind the absolute minimum dps from lucid dreams and we get 369, 336 dps vs 0% and 50% fort.

[wax_on_wax_off]

regarding the rune arm i considered a shot every 6 seconds as in the thread by cforce. for a maxed lucid dream this will yield 257 dps if it is saved only on a 20, 138 dps if it is always saved but on a 1.

about the numbers you quoted, i can spot some mistakes and bad assumptions. with 4 fgt levels you have only haste boost II (hence 20% not 25%). on top of that, considering rage being on is unrealistic with only 2 levels of barb.

at the end i reran my numbers (i use A-O calculator): the pure helf warchanter i considered in the previous post will get 327 and 247 dps vs 0% and 50% fort respectively. On the other hand your build will get 352 and 273 dps in those situations. note i didn't add the rage, if you really want to add that you get 370, 287 dps. i also considered twitching, without it your build is less effective.

so at the end i stand on my claim that under reasonable assumptions melee artificers deal more dps than warchanters.

Edit: forgot horc bonus damage with two handers.

Edit2: on the other hand i also underestimated the arty dps. i didn't add eclaw, shintao nor litany since i evaluate my builds with average equipment not top-end. with those factored in the melee arty will get 231, 198 dps vs 0% and 50% fort. addind the absolute minimum dps from lucid dreams and we get 369, 336 dps vs 0% and 50% fort.

Totally fair to use whatever gear you like when comparing to an eSoS wielding bard

Care to rerun the numbers for the build that I linked above? It's particularly nice to get ravager set and rune arm damage on all glancing blows.