The Unknown-- a perception of a type of tank

[scottmike0]

So guys, i need you to critique the build i will be posting it seems to me it is a great leveling type of build with a somewhat tank capability..
here it is

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

epic 
Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(10 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 4 Artificer) 
Hit Points: 388
Spell Points: 326 
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 12
Will: 15

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             16                    23
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         14                    19
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom               14                    16
Charisma             10                    12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                     3
Bluff                 0                     2
Concentration         6                    19
Diplomacy             0                     2
Disable Device        5                    25
Haggle                0                     1
Heal                  2                     3
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate            0                    10
Jump                  5                     8
Listen                2                     3
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             6                     7
Perform               n/a                   n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                5                    25
Spot                  2                     3
Swim                  3                     6
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device      4                    17

Level 1 (Artificer)
Skill: Concentration (+4)
Skill: Disable Device (+4)
Skill: Jump (+2)
Skill: Open Lock (+4)
Skill: Search (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 3 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Stunning Blow


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 5 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 6 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist


Level 7 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 8 (Artificer)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+5)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+0.5)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 15 (Artificer)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+5)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Artificer)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Concentration (+5)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Construct Essence


Level 17 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 19 (Fighter)
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Stunning Blow) I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I


Level 20 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: CON
Skill: Disable Device (+1)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Search (+1)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Attack Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Kensei Khopesh Mastery I
Enhancement: Fighter Critical Accuracy II
Enhancement: Fighter Kensei I
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Use Magic Device I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness III
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness IV

[Lonnbeimnech]

construct essence is a trap.

[scottmike0]

construct essence is a trap.

how is it a trap i have it on my arti-human and it seems great

[WielderofGigantus]

Is 20 seconds of evasion per rest worth spending a feat on? Especially considering your poor reflex saves and not much charisma for your divine grace to help you with...

[Lonnbeimnech]

A full umd class should be able to no fail a heal scroll even with 8 cha, by about lvl 16. So there is no need to recon/repair yourself. It's nice to be able to cast recon if you are under attack and have quicken. Other than that you are just making it so that you get healed for less.

[scottmike0]

to answer both of you,
20 seconds of evasion seems nice to me, yet opinions may differ
and also divine grace is bar far very nice, because with gear +6 i should have +4 to saves then with ship buffs it = +5 which is greater heroism include
-------

to lonnbeimnech, i know a full umd class should have a no fail heal at 16, the reason why i took construct essense is for those times when getting healed by a cleric is not enough and i need a wizard to heal me.
see with having 2 types of healing its more of a gain than having one.
yes it does interfere with my healing amp but that is only by 20 and if truly wanted more healing amp i would go do hunter of the dead prestige for that extra 10% even though to me it does not seem worth the trouble.
*so in small words i wanted 2 types of healing
so that a tank is able to be healed by both
rather than only once
another bonus to this is the lay on hand healing me for regular and construct.
even though it is a glitch..

[Lonnbeimnech]

Ive never been in a situation where a healer couldnt top me up with a heal spell, so i dont understand why you would need 2 different classes spamming you with heals to keep you alive. then you go on to say heal amp isnt worth it, and now it makes sense.

It's sort of a low hp, low ac, low dr, low heal amp, low str tank build that can do traps...

Different strokes for different folks i guess...

[scottmike0]

Ive never been in a situation where a healer couldnt top me up with a heal spell, so i dont understand why you would need 2 different classes spamming you with heals to keep you alive. then you go on to say heal amp isnt worth it, and now it makes sense.

It's sort of a low hp, low ac, low dr, low heal amp, low str tank build that can do traps...

Different strokes for different folks i guess...

glad to hear sort-of
although its not that low unless all your toons are barbs or extremely geared at beginning of day one...
which is hard to beleive. but i guess everyone has their own way of playing though ddo like high str and high con = done
it seems you were right about the "Different strokes for different folks i guess"

[MeatSheild]

At first I was trying to understand your lv split and it took me a bit on the wiki to look up enh and classes. This is what I got out of it:
4 Art allows you to pick up an Art feat (construct ess) and that is the min lv to pick one up.
6 Pali allows you to pick up a PrE.
10 fighter opens up the the 4th lv of quite a bit of enh.

Now lets look where your current build plan has some room to give to possibly improve your toon. Whats with all the wisdom? I think the biggest current gap in lv's here is the 10 fighter you could be using haste boost 4, tatics up to 4, and toughness 4 and out of these your only using toughness 4 and imho 10 hp is not worth the 4 AP (or even 3 and 20 hp for 7 AP nty). Now unless you plan on using these higher lv enh then you could safly change out two lvs of fighter. I know you loose a feat this way but I think you coulld safely drop imp sunder or stunning blow as its easier to build up one tactic than two. What you do with those 2 lvs of ftr is up to you but I think putting them into art might be your best bet. Right now it might not help a ton (though an endless might help you pull and build aggro on something), but I belive whith the enh pass there will be a melee based art. Now the last thing I'd like to say here is that kensi I is weak. I think your build would be much better off with SD I and HoTD I. Anyway let me post something that might look a little better in the long run.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(8 Fighter \ 6 Paladin \ 6 Artificer) 
Hit Points: 348
Spell Points: 340 
BAB: 18\18\23\28\28
Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 10
Will: 10

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(36 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             18                    28
Dexterity            15                    17
Constitution         15                    18
Intelligence         12                    14
Wisdom                8                    10
Charisma              8                    10

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance               2                     3
Bluff                -1                     0
Concentration         2                     6
Diplomacy            -1                     0
Disable Device        n/a                   n/a
Haggle               -1                     0
Heal                 -1                     0
Hide                  2                     3
Intimidate           -1                     5
Jump                  4                     9
Listen               -1                     0
Move Silently         2                     3
Open Lock             n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                1                     2
Search                1                     2
Spot                 -1                     0
Swim                  4                     9
Tumble                n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device     n/a                    n/a

Level 1 (Artificer)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Selected) Toughness
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist


Level 4 (Paladin)


Level 5 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Sunder


Level 6 (Artificer)
Feat: (Selected) Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Khopesh


Level 7 (Artificer)


Level 8 (Fighter)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 12 (Artificer)
Feat: (Artificer Bonus) Construct Essence
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Fighter)


Level 18 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Specialization: Slashing Weapons


Level 19 (Artificer)


Level 20 (Artificer)
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Artificer Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost III
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Attack I
Enhancement: Artificer Crossbow Damage I
Enhancement: Artificer Battle Engineer I
Enhancement: Fighter Stalwart Defender I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) I
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) II
Enhancement: Fighter Strategy (Sunder) III
Enhancement: Fighter Khopesh Specialization I
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Constitution I
Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery III
Enhancement: Human Versatility I
Enhancement: Human Versatility II
Enhancement: Human Versatility III
Enhancement: Human Versatility IV
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Hunter of the Dead I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Fighter Strength II
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness I
Enhancement: Fighter Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Turning I
Enhancement: Paladin Improved Turning I

I didn't touch the skills but I'm sure thats not hard to figure out.

[Nyvn]

What are you trying to do with this build?

[wax_on_wax_off]

What are you trying to do with this build?

Maybe it's one of those builds where you gimp it intentionally because the game is so easy and we want a challenge? What better way to do that than by gimping the incoming healing that we have with construct essence without at least backing it up with quickened reconstructs.

I'm playing a dragonmarked human melee pure artificer which is THE prime candidate for construct essence. However, with no fail heal scrolls at level 14 (no special gear for this), solid heal amp (from PL gear/class) and much better things to spend my action points on (improved rune arm use IV is freaking AWESOME) I'm so happy that I didn't go down this route.

[Nyvn]

Maybe it's one of those builds where you gimp it intentionally because the game is so easy and we want a challenge? What better way to do that than by gimping the incoming healing that we have with construct essence without at least backing it up with quickened reconstructs.

I'm playing a dragonmarked human melee pure artificer which is THE prime candidate for construct essence. However, with no fail heal scrolls at level 14 (no special gear for this), solid heal amp (from PL gear/class) and much better things to spend my action points on (improved rune arm use IV is freaking AWESOME) I'm so happy that I didn't go down this route.

From the posted build it's pretty obvious that the OP isn't familiar with building effective characters. If we know what the OP wants to do then we can provide a build that does it.

[Blank_Zero]

Lay on Hands healing warforged/fleshies for the same amount is not a "glitch" as you put it.

You should probably play a few more toons to cap or look harder at some other builds before posting your own.

[scottmike0]

Lay on Hands healing warforged/fleshies for the same amount is not a "glitch" as you put it.

You should probably play a few more toons to cap or look harder at some other builds before posting your own.

true, but the goal of this build was to be a all in one type of build.
The pros' of the build are
artificer scroll usage = a gained level allowing me to cast heal scrolls higher level than what the base is

trap usage allowing me to do any trap even the evasion needed ones

tank ability because i see a lot of warforge in the game tank with little healing amp and no they are not all barbs nor do they have ac but of course they do have moderate saves.

yes this build does have healing amp as you can see which is 30% which is nice to counteract the construct essence

it is a human for the versatility bonus and feat

and best part it is, its fun leveling up build because you gain an awesome trait that another may not have *trait as in skill/feat*

oh and this does have a moderate ac allowing me to live through some of those quests without having to lift a finger.
Cons
20% less healing amp due to construct essence
half healing for repair - *which is not much of a con to me if you think about it*
other may say pure of one class is better
and nothing much else because it has almost everything needed to make it viable.
*other some may post other cons and i will put it in this post.
______
please note i will not try an exploiter build just because it can do the same thing this, build is meant to be used as a build for the time "tree enhancements" come, because then i can have hunter of the dead prestige and defender perstige which is nice when you think about it.

other than that if you can find a build that does it all without having to seriously grind.
meaning a build that allows you to have free heal/trap easy/umd easy/tank ability/and more like dps capabilty due to power attack/and to a degree of ac/due to combat expertise, with hate generation.

Just post it

[Nyvn]

scottmike0,

It seems you already have it all figured out. I'm not sure why you bothered to ask for feedback.

[wax_on_wax_off]

scottmike0,

It seems you already have it all figured out. I'm not sure why you bothered to ask for feedback.

I wonder if the OP will realise that this isn't a compliment?

OP: It isn't -20% healing amp it's 75% base healing amp so it means that all healing amp that you add will be multiplied by that original .75%.

Basically you do healing amp like this:
base*bonus*bonus*bonus

So if you have construct essence and human healing amp III it'll look like this:
.75*1.3=.975 or 97.5% the healing of what a human would normally get (after spending 12 AP).

Most healing amp works like this. Some works slightly differently (Paladin PL, insight bonuses from fleshmaker property) and give slightly more than what you would expect. If you equip other healing amp properties after these items then you will get slightly more benefit from them (but that's neither here nor there).

Building a tank with less healing amp than a non-human race is not a good start, please trust us on that. You'll need 2 blue bar characters to keep you up instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2. A good tank requires half the amount of healing than usual, not twice as much!

[scottmike0]

I wonder if the OP will realise that this isn't a compliment?

OP: It isn't -20% healing amp it's 75% base healing amp so it means that all healing amp that you add will be multiplied by that original .75%.

Basically you do healing amp like this:
base*bonus*bonus*bonus

So if you have construct essence and human healing amp III it'll look like this:
.75*1.3=.975 or 97.5% the healing of what a human would normally get (after spending 12 AP).

Most healing amp works like this. Some works slightly differently (Paladin PL, insight bonuses from fleshmaker property) and give slightly more than what you would expect. If you equip other healing amp properties after these items then you will get slightly more benefit from them (but that's neither here nor there).

Building a tank with less healing amp than a non-human race is not a good start, please trust us on that. You'll need 2 blue bar characters to keep you up instead of 1 or 4 instead of 2. A good tank requires half the amount of healing than usual, not twice as much!

if that was true, then what type of build would be an all in one build :/
im trying to look for a build that is able to survive with ac- going afk sometimes, does traps, able to use umd, has a good source of damage output with power attack on, and has awesome saves with moderate healing amp
and something besides monk, so that i can gain a different type of past life.

[Nyvn]

Have you considered a 12/6/2 Fighter/Monk/Rogue? It has Trap Skills, Evasion, UMD, Better AC, effectively uses your monk past life feat, and has Kensai II so it has better DPS.

The only thing you lose out on is the Arcane Healing which if you're not casting quickened Recons on yourself is wasted.

[scottmike0]

Have you considered a 12/6/2 Fighter/Monk/Rogue? It has Trap Skills, Evasion, UMD, Better AC, effectively uses your monk past life feat, and has Kensai II so it has better DPS.

The only thing you lose out on is the Arcane Healing which if you're not casting quickened Recons on yourself is wasted.

hmm




good point by why rogue and not arti?
more sneak damage and that would be it?
thats pretty much all i have to say
and is
12 fighter 7 monk 1 rogue/arti more viable? or?

[Nyvn]

Arti should be fine in place of rogue, and 12/7/1 should be ok, but you miss out on scroll enhancements.