summon mosnter improvement

[Drekisen]

Try basing your argument on fact rather than opinion when you tell someone they are wrong with the words "in actuality"

It is fact...someone with great skill in something is better than someone with very little or no skill in the same thing.

[Havok.cry]

It is fact...someone with great skill in something is better than someone with very little or no skill in the same thing.

Nothing about conjuration is "in actuality"

Also summoning is its own special subset of conjuration and doesnt work the same. You are not creating anything with summoning, only calling it to your location, and putting it under your control. You arent even picking the exact thing you summon. You are calling a feindish troll not gorbok the feindish troll. The more power gained by being more powerful is represented by being able to summon more powerful types of monsters. The DCs do not and should not ever have anything to do with summoning. The only way I could see that changing is if the summoner could allow his summoned mobs to use his conj DC for their special abilities that have DCs.

[Havok.cry]

Not trying to stand up for anyone else, but the line you are trying to turn from fact to opinion is (IMO) not possible to prove, considering I do not know of any Conjurers "in actuality" to discuss a theory of skill vs raw power.

That is kinda what I was trying to point out to that person.

[Forgeborn]

A more powerful conjuror would more strongly be able to manipulate summoning.....I don't see where your argument is going here.

You're saying that conjuration DC should affect summoning in some meaningful, I say it shouldn't, because you're just calling a creature to you, you're not creating it, just calling it to you and binding it to do your bidding for a short time period, a 'stronger willed' summoner could potentially bind stronger creatures, but he'd first need to locate one of those exceptional specimens, and hope it answers his calling.

And I didn't say PM feats...I said necro DC's...PM's being more attuned to necromancy would also have more power when summoning an undead minion.

They do, it's your enhancement line, only PM's can summon those things, you can prove me wrong by showing me any non-PM that has a frostmarrow skeleton of any type under his control, if you wish to do so.

Uhmm sorry.....but a WISDOM dump battle cleric would not conjure a more powerful entity than a 40 conjuration DC full INT wizard.....I know that's how it is in the game now...but it doesn't make any sense...in actuality conjuration takes skill.

False, they don't, both classes cast 'summon monster IX', so their summons are the same strength, their strength would only be different if only one of them has the augment summoning feat, please do try to stick to facts if you're referring to the 'live' game. Further, 'in actuality conjuration takes skill' is also false, since in 'actuality' conjuration as we use it in DDO does not exist. (for a generalization, you are correct, a person that practices in something will often be better then somebody who doesn't, but even that doesn't apply to everything.)

Some light based healbot FvS is not going to know more in the ways of undead than a PM who spends most of their life in partial undead form.

Being attuned to something, or 'using' it's power doesn't mean knowing everything of it, and you're not partial undead, you're shrouding yourself in negative energy, taking on many traits of the undead, you're still very much alive below that cloak of negative energy. second, that would depend on the personalities of the two, for the PM it could be a path to power, while the 'healbot fvs' studies them as if it were a religion, you cannot measure knowledge of creatures purely by class. (and even if we could, undead fall under knowledge: religion, not knowledge: arcane.)

[Doxmaster]

And you left out Conjuration DC.....I'm sorry but summon is conjuration.....your DC in that school should have an effect on your summon(s)......not hirelings.......but summons yes. And for PM's their Necro DC should effect their skellies.

I do not recall DCs ever having an effect on Conjuration(summoning) spells in PnP. Skillchecks, yes. Caster levels, yes. DCs no.

Planar binding, on the other hand, allowed a saving throw to resist being summoned, resist being commanded, etc. The duration you can hold the being under your power caps based on your caster level (one day per caster level) for normal situations.

False, they don't, both classes cast 'summon monster IX', so their summons are the same strength, their strength would only be different if only one of them has the augment summoning feat, please do try to stick to facts if you're referring to the 'live' game. Further, 'in actuality conjuration takes skill' is also false, since in 'actuality' conjuration as we use it in DDO does not exist. (for a generalization, you are correct, a person that practices in something will often be better then somebody who doesn't, but even that doesn't apply to everything.)

Well...capability of the mage casting the spell did have an effect in PnP; the duration of the spell was based off caster level. Once again returning to Planar binding, EVERYTHING depended on the ability of the caster-

Caster level equals how long the being is bound
DC determines what beings you should aim for
Spell pen begets summoning beings with better spell resistance
knowing True Names allows you to target specific beings and up the ante in negotiations...

To improve Pale Master summons (besides reducing/removing the extraneous investments you need to put in to even unlock access to the summons...), I would suggest bringing Corpse Crafter feats in the form of an AP line. Somehow. Making it apply to all 'summons' would be nice.

The original feats were:
Corpse Crafter-Bonus HP and Strength: another stacking +4 con would work here.
Nimble Bones-Bonus move speed: weak alone. Perhaps add evasion to it as well.
Explosive retribution-Explode when killed: Fine as is.
Deathly Chill-bonus damage on attacks: Weak, but hard to improve upon.
Hardened Flesh-Boosted AC: Bonus DR and AC would be great.

Planar Binding spells would also be a lovely addition, after they are reworked to be usable here. As would Animate dead making an appearance in some form; I'm partial to it being a necromancy fueled 'Charm/Dominate Monster'.

[TekkenDevil]

Two......conjuration DC should have an effect on it.....it would make that school all that much more appealing.

Doesn't make much sense. You summon monsters from the wilderness or another plane. Conjuration would mean you create them yourself. Unless the teleportation that is involved in the summoning is your doing, and if that teleportation could be classified as Conjuration, your suggestion wouldn't really work in technicality.

Let's say an Ice Reaver is minding his own business, just chilling in the plane of Fernia. Suddenly you cast a spell, calling upon him, then he teleports to your plane and location through it's own magic. There's not much conjuration going on.

[Failedlegend]

Explosive retribution-Explode when killed: Fine as is.

If they added JUST this feat I'd be using my pets WAY more if only to watch them explode

[nibel]

In PnP, Augment Summon requires Spell Focus Conjuration. I think spell focus is a better requisite than iron mind or mental toughness for the upper tiers.

I agree that they should allow us to summon a pack of lower level mobs. But at the same time, I think they dont do it to not raise even more the lag issues we have. AI pathing is a n² problem. Adding one more AI more than double the issue.
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PM Skellies should be a permanent pet like the artie's dog. Start with a basic skeleton (the one you get at PM I), and buy enhancements to set him into a class: Knight, Archer, Arcane. Knight have much more HP, AC, DR, tactics and intimidate. Archer have a big to-hit, (improved) evasion, crippling, slowburst, and cursespewing. Arcane is what we have now (by far, the most useful skelly around, but expensive on APs). Later we can add Frostmarrow (permanent cold shield (damage only), Icy burst on weapons, superior ice lore on caster, weak against fire), or Blackbone (immunity to fire, resistance to lightning and acid, slower swing and casting speed).

[Doxmaster]

PM Skellies should be a permanent pet like the artie's dog. Start with a basic skeleton (the one you get at PM I), and buy enhancements to set him into a class: Knight, Archer, Arcane. Knight have much more HP, AC, DR, tactics and intimidate. Archer have a big to-hit, (improved) evasion, crippling, slowburst, and cursespewing. Arcane is what we have now (by far, the most useful skelly around, but expensive on APs). Later we can add Frostmarrow (permanent cold shield (damage only), Icy burst on weapons, superior ice lore on caster, weak against fire), or Blackbone (immunity to fire, resistance to lightning and acid, slower swing and casting speed).

I really would like this, high viability or low. Of course, there is the matter of what you technically said... "permanent pet" is a very accurate description of what Pale Masters currently have. The skeletons, once summoned, can only be replaced or die. They will non de-spawn due to time.

Problem is, the True Permanent Pet thing is currently part of the Artificer Niche and...well...PMs are powerful. Top DCs, Great self healing, High HP... Its hard to justify giving us a good pet, especially since that's one of the special things about the newest class. Tossing some large inherit disadvantage onto it would balance everything out, but that would further divide the people who use the pets and those that do not.

Would I trade 10%-15% of my maximum Hp for an Artificer style Pale Master skeleton?
Absolutely.

[Failedlegend]

Problem is, the True Permanent Pet thing is currently part of the Artificer Niche

Can't really use that as a reason to not make PM Pets useful since the hope is to eventually get Familiars (For Arcane Casters), Animal Companions (Druid and Ranger) and possibly even a Celestial Tiger (Paladin)...and of course we can't for get about Dinosaurs (Talentia Halfing)

[Aesop]

I would not mind seeing a bonus to summoned critters based on DCs.

The thing is as with all summoned creatures they are not really here... lemme 'splain.

What you are doing when you Summon a Monster is reach out to another plane of existence and tap into the essence of a creature you are summoning. Then building a body on "this" plane for that essence to inhabit while it is doing its job for you.

If it was really here then we who summon would become pan dimensional fugitives due to depopulation of other realities. Heck some critters would be on the endangered species list.

So with that as a base for logic. The Conjuration DC represents how well you can create the body the essence inhabits.

here are a couple of DC based idea to improve the Summoned critters.

1. Bonus HP. DC * Spell Level bonus hp. ie DC 20, spell level 2 gets 40 bonus hp. DC 50, spell level 9 gets 450 bonus hp. It increases their survivability slightly throughout the levels.

2. Stat Bonus. +1 Str Dex and Con for every 10 points of DC... or something like that

3.Templates. This one is a little more complicated for implementation. As the DCs increase it opens up better versions of the specific critters. Let's say for example you summon a Dog (I know its a celestial dog but this is breaking the basics down a bit).

at DC 11 you summon just that a Dog.
at DC 15 you summon an Advanced Dog better hp, str, con ac, trip DC.
at DC 20 you summon a Celestial Dog that has some inherent resistance to Acid Cold and Electricity plus the Advanced templates bonuses as well
at DC 30 you advance the template and HD of the critter
etc...

These are only mock ups the exact DC differences and plateaus can be determined later.

This would create a difference between not only specialist but between Scroll and actual casting.

I also think that there should be a dismissal function.

and I'd like to see the PM Companion become more like the Arty companion as well.

Aesop

[bigolbear]

What Id like to see done with summons.

1. Total summoning lvl = character lvl. (character lvl rather than caster lvl so it works with umd).
2. augment summon grants +4 to summoning lvl.
3. Each summon has an icon in your buff bar with a health indicator, clicking on that icon sets your 'hireling task bar' to that summon.
4. You can summon a total CR worth of summons equal to your summoning lvl, this means a typical caster could have 1 summon monster 9 or say 2 summon monster 4's.
5. The pale master skeletons enhancemnts each grant +6 to your summoning lvl, animal companions and arti dogs each grant +(your lvl) to your summoning lvl.
6. new enhancemnt for rangers to get a pet like artis.
7. new enhancemnt for all classes - requires augment summon, increases summons stats and summoning lvl.

This would mean that a pale master could have say 3 knights, and a mage - but could not afford an air ele, an arti would have their dog and a summon or 2 from scrols. All summons would be controleable, and be able to be dismissed or placed in passive mode. It would be easy to tell a summons health/mana at a glance.

I do think this realy needs to be looked at for the release of druid, because where a cleric is a sponteneous healer a druid is a sponteneous summoner, and summons in ddo as it stands are generaly quite weak.

Lag is of course as always a concern.