Hard Shroud Post

[dirtphillips]

I wanted to get a few opinions on my planned post for Hard Shrouds. While I’m sure I’ll get responses here saying it’s your LFM, do what you want, I do want to see how vets would view such a post (and their interest level in joining, based on the LFM). I see no point in putting an LFM and it never fills due to the way it is viewed.

Link BB, melees have SP pot for healers as needed

Also, what do you look for in a melee toon to see if their ready to move up from Norm to Hard? 450+ hp? 30 STR min? Epic Gear? Anything Else?
What sort of guidelines for other toons?

[danotmano1998]

I'm not convinced that Shroud needs any qualifiers on hard.

I've done several hard completions with the first 11 and go. Haven't seen a Shroud fail since they fixed the blenders in there. So, I'd say you're better off with:

Shroud Hard
First 11 and go!

(You may want to hold out for a cleric or FVS however. 2 is better.)

[nerdychaz]

It depends on the idiots that fill your pug. It's amazing how someone can have epic dragonscale armor and still die fighting Harry.

Oh, and to answer your question, if you ask me to link anything I will never join that LFM.

[SemiraLynn]

Link BB, melees have SP pot for healers as needed

That's a good way to never fill the group. But really, even on Hard if the healers have to drink pots something has gone very wrong. It's okay to be a little picky. You don't even have to mention it in the lfm. If someone joins that seems like they aren't up to the task (low hp, asks for "share plz", wonders which house Shroud is in...), politely get rid of them.

450 hp on a melee should be fine. Any melee by level 18 should have that much anyways except maybe a Rogue. Two healers and then ten anyone is fine. Don't worry about caster heavy groups as dots are wonderful. Any Hard Shroud post should look like a normal shroud post, just replacing the word Normal with Hard.

[Keybreaker]

I wanted to get a few opinions on my planned post for Hard Shrouds.

Ok. Personal opinions below.

Link BB, melees have SP pot for healers as needed

I would not join this LFM. Hard Shroud with minimal screening almost guarantees fast completion w/o resources like mana pots.

I'm not convinced that Shroud needs any qualifiers on hard.

I disagree. As has been pointed out countless times: No screening, particularly no DR breakers, can spell a disastrously painful run. A DR-breaker off the AH is cheaper than ONE MAJOR MANA POT off the AH. Screening for DR-breaker is really just screening for who gives a **** about a fast, painless completion.

Shroud Hard
First 11 and go!

I would not join this LFM. Assumes everyone knows what they are doing. I've met many casters in Shroud who don't DOT (some don't have the spells, some don't have maximize/empower/potency/efficacy/etc.). I've met Pallies in Shroud that don't know their Holy Sword spell is a great DR-breaker (and MUCH better than the Terror they are swinging at Harry). I've met Rogues that REFUSE to use DR-breakers b/c they believe their SA dam is enough (it isn't). I've met Monks w/o Holy Burst rings who think using Epic Mabar wraps breaks Harry's DR just because they are Shintao3 ("Do you see yellow or orange numbers?" "Yellow...").

For Hard (or Elite) Shroud (or any other Raid), I'd only post, and I'd only join a raid that looked like it would not be a waste of my time. I'd rather shortman with the first 6 or 7 by screening who seemed to know (from experience) or care (maybe newbie, but has DR-breaker or DOTs) than join a group of the first 11 without any screening at all.

Overly restrictive LFMs are a warning sign. No raid NEEDS an Artie or Bard. ROG, RGR, and all casters can be high DPS with even the slightest attention to build and equipment.

If I have a handful of guildies (2-4), I'll just post "Quick Shroud" and take just about anyone who applies in a 2-5min window and shows up before they get locked out. If hard or elite where DR and DPS matter, I will ask one basic question to anyone that clicks on LFM, "Plz link BB" or "Do you have DOT spells?"

I would JOIN an LFM for Hard Shroud (the subject of the OP) that just said "Melees link BBs" w/o any of the classes greyed out. If I were hosting that LFM, I would remove any toon with less than 300hp and explain to them in a tell that 200-ish hp is too few to raid with without being a liability to others.

[KingOfCheese]

I would not join such an lfm. The request to link DR-breakers is too much of a turn-off.

The pot request sits fine with me. I'd have no problem joining an lfm with that language.

[nix_vali]

I wanted to get a few opinions on my planned post for Hard Shrouds. While I’m sure I’ll get responses here saying it’s your LFM, do what you want, I do want to see how vets would view such a post (and their interest level in joining, based on the LFM). I see no point in putting an LFM and it never fills due to the way it is viewed.

Link BB, melees have SP pot for healers as needed

Also, what do you look for in a melee toon to see if their ready to move up from Norm to Hard? 450+ hp? 30 STR min? Epic Gear? Anything Else?
What sort of guidelines for other toons?

Yes 450 hp for a melee on hard shroud is acceptable.
Epic gear ?No u dont need epic gear.
DR breakers yes, any single melee that will join a hard and elite should have one .If at this point ppl cant be bothered to aquire a bb then i cant be bothered to accepted them into my group.

That's a good way to never fill the group. But really, even on Hard if the healers have to drink pots something has gone very wrong. It's okay to be a little picky. .

You are contradicting yourself.

I would not join such an lfm. The request to link DR-breakers is too much of a turn-off.

The pot request sits fine with me. I'd have no problem joining an lfm with that language.

Orien pug population is still learning.
I simply dont get it why are ppl from other servers continually give their opinion on the Orien pug scene if they dont even play here.
I know all u 2006 are all cool and all beat the shroud at lvl 16 with ur Club of the Holy Flame but thats yet to be seen here...
Last 3 Hard Pug Shrouds i joined on my wizard i had to pot both in part 4 and 5 and just laught at how almost everyone died while me and the other arcanes left had to kill the boss using our own resources.

[SemiraLynn]

You are contradicting yourself.

I was referring to melees bringing sp pots. It would scare away melees and it isn't needed to begin with. Although the way the game is now, scaring away all the melees and only taking casters wouldn't be half bad.

[BladeTricks]

Hard Shroud is a little harder after U13 (Harry hits harder now since he can bypass some fortification and do SA dmg). I'd do some minimal screening. Melee/Ranged toons should bring DR breakers. If they can't be bothered, then they can find another LFM. Not enough DPS spells trouble for part 5 and forces divines to spend their resources to save the raid.

[Keybreaker]

I would not join such an lfm. The request to link DR-breakers is too much of a turn-off.

The pot request sits fine with me. I'd have no problem joining an lfm with that language.

ROFL.

Shroud LFM: "Don't Link DR-breakers! Melees bring pots!"

Win.

[sirgog]

Requiring linking of DR breakers is just plain good sense.

Shroud Hard is the first raid with a quite strict DPS minimum players will encounter (if you don't get part 5 Harry down in 5 minutes, you won't get him down at all as you'll have blades literally everywhere; solid PUG groups take 2 min 45 to 3 min 30 to do it so you really do need at least 60% of the DPS of a good group).

Normal noone cares if someone swings a Club of the Holy Flame. But on Hard, having useless people makes the raid a lot more likely to wipe. If I was healing a Hard Shroud and saw three people swinging Terror, I sure as hell would not waste a single mana potion on them.

On the other hand, if they are swinging low-end DR breakers like a +3 Holy Silver Falchion of Tendon Slice 2%, I'll drink a couple of pots to get them through it.

[Havok.cry]

Requiring linking of DR breakers is just plain good sense.

Shroud Hard is the first raid with a quite strict DPS minimum players will encounter (if you don't get part 5 Harry down in 5 minutes, you won't get him down at all as you'll have blades literally everywhere; solid PUG groups take 2 min 45 to 3 min 30 to do it so you really do need at least 60% of the DPS of a good group).

Normal noone cares if someone swings a Club of the Holy Flame. But on Hard, having useless people makes the raid a lot more likely to wipe. If I was healing a Hard Shroud and saw three people swinging Terror, I sure as hell would not waste a single mana potion on them.

On the other hand, if they are swinging low-end DR breakers like a +3 Holy Silver Falchion of Tendon Slice 2%, I'll drink a couple of pots to get them through it.

Have to agree with this.

[dirtphillips]

Let me clarify why I would ask the melees for to have pots, if needed. The melees need to understand that sub-par dps ultimately falls on the healer to save the day with his own treasure. If the healers don't pot, then fine, no one needs to provide any. But having healed several hard shroud runs and burning multiple pots every time, I know that I am reticent to keep doing so unless I know the rest of the party will give me a hand afterwards if need be.

With regard to a couple of comments here, I hope that people understand that these "well understood rules" about things (in this case, the Shroud) all not always well known. For example, I did not know for a while that healers should dot when not healing. Also, the value of quicken spell is not readily apparent until you head into harder difficulties of a raid. I hope all of you that know these things can communicate them in a positive manner to the unfortunate soul that did not know them (in the game, you guys were fine here on the forums). Try to treat the newer players the way you would have wanted to be treated when you were at that stage. This is especially true of players like me who are not a member of a large guild with other experienced players to lean on.

I appreciate the feedback, I am sorely in need of large mats and I am on generally too late to join someone elses run, so I need to make my own.

[eclipse668]

I think you got your answers on the 'bare' minimum necessities for a shroud run. I'd like to sum up some of the less aparent 'tweaks' you can give your raidlfm. It has been said between the lines, but I feel a lot of ppl focus on the 'link a BB part' feel safe and fail/struggle without realy knowing why.
You are just starting to bring your runs to the fellow pug scene. Joining a raid you know the leader makes most aplicants feel more comfortable and a run started by someone frequently scheduling quality completions will fill in minutes and most likely have a smooth/swift completion.
That is because you had the time to find quality/comedy/dedicated players for your runs that somehow stick to your schedule. The process of finding those players and luring them back into your lfm time after time can't be reduced to a 'link BB' in the lfm. If you aim for a quality raid time after time I suggest you invest some points into social skills. Just some examples: find players that like to play the game and avoid filling with ppl that just look for someone carrying them once again. Look for ppl that are willing to comunicate when there is a need to and get rid of those chattering away because they like to hear their voice. Honor the effort of ppl giving advice or helping the fellow new players out by just buying him a (dirtcheap) holy silver BB from the AH to give him a pointer with some substance behind it.
Over time you will know the players that game in your raidtime frequently and you might find a solid 'base'. This works the other way round aswell as the guys that realy liked your raids/attitude/group compositions will look out for your lfm or join you spontaneously when they see you advertising on the lfm.

On a personal note. I don't like newbie bashing and I don't like carrying ppl that are impervious to advice. Shroud threats always seem to oscillate between encouraging one of those two options.

[balancetraveller]

Link BB, melees have SP pot for healers as needed

To me the wording speaks of uncertainty, regarding your confidence in getting your group through the raid. Might wanna rephrase that a bit to make it sounds like you know what you are leading people into.

[Crann]

Link BB, melees have SP pot for healers as needed

If the melees all have BB's and the casters (divine too) all have dots, then the healers don't need SP Pots.

[Isharah]

Link BB, melees have SP pot for healers as needed

I think this sounds fine -- though you can probably get a better crowd by saying "Link BB, accepting pot donations for healers as needed". If you really want to be careful, you might want to add HP requirements, like 350 HP buffed for casters, 420 HP buffed for melee or something like that.

Also, what do you look for in a melee toon to see if their ready to move up from Norm to Hard? 450+ hp? 30 STR min? Epic Gear? Anything Else?
What sort of guidelines for other toons?

Here are a couple of checklists from the top of my head. I know that they are more than the bare necessities, but if you want to be pretty decent and not just barely passable, these are good things to look out for.

For melees:

• bossbeater - Need something with silver and good. On norm you can do with a normal weapon, but on hard DR is too big to ignore.
• ~400 HP unbuffed - rule of thumb for melees on level 18 and higher raids
• portal beater - Some ideas: anarchic burst, vicious, smiting, construct bane. Supposedly weapon crits don't land the base damage, but the effects get triggered on crits. So you probably want to get a weapon with high base damage (and high crit chance % if you have anarchic burst or some similar thing).

For casters:

• don't be a fire savant - Sorry, but devils are immune to fire, Harry is immune to fire. I take fire savants to normal runs, but are subject to usefulness checks on hard.
• ~300 HP unbuffed - rule of thumb for casters on level 18 and higher raids
• portal beater - Yes, portal beaters on casters. I know of only a few who bring these around, but IMO portal dps is everyone's business. Especially on a multiple-caster party, you need only one to clear ahead. So what does the other one do? Drain 80% of SP dpsing portals, then take out your beaters. Help when you can.
• spells: DoT spells (niac's biting cold, eladar's electric surge, divine punishment), standard nuke spells even if you're a PM or Archmage
• a handful of pots just in case - Probably won't use them on a group that passes this checklist, but it's always good practice to bring a few with you.

[MeatSheild]

The Orien server is still learning to raid properly, and like it or not Shroud is a good place to learn (hard even better). The reason I say this is that many vets still run this for alts, large mats, junk loot to break/sell, and the tomes. Introducing the need for DR breakers and bringing pots/plat for your healers is a good thing. You might not need them, but putting the idea that certan things are needed for certan raids into the heads of the newer players is a must and I'd rather it happen in a hard shroud than an epic anything. I also love the idea of requsting everyone to have a portal beater. I have ran a healer for most of the two years I've been playing this game and nothing bugs me more than a cleric standing at a portal with aura on doing nothing (DoT and use some smiters ppl). One of the best shrouds I have ever ran with was a heavly melee group and the poster for the lfm only wanted ppl to link thier portal beaters (9 second portals and this was b4 DoTs). As for an hp req this should also be addressed mostly b/c the raids that are on a higher lv also will have these requirements and to be honest I don't wan't someone saying my 240hp rogue has ran a hard/elite shroud and noone said anything to me, why would it be to low to go into your epic (insert raid here)?

[dynahawk]

I would not bring any of my flagged toons to an LFM like that. (Healer, Melee, or Caster)

BB request I have no problem with at all. To me it is a no brainer for Hard + Shrouds.

The pot request rubs me the wrong way. I see many Healers and casters still learning the raid and over healing and wasting SP. I don't want to pay for them learning/not learning.

If you don't have a mandatory "pot in" I would think only more qualified/confident healers would join. If everyone pulls their weight pots should not be needed.

When I bring my healer to Hard shrouds I have only ever used one pot(luckily), and I would hate if other people felt they had to give me pots.

I do give pots when appropriate, but I guess everyone has a different definition of "appropriate".

[danotmano1998]

I guess I just don't understand why anyone would need anyone to link their weapons and have potions to donate.

Harry on hard is not that tough.
Elite? Sure, that can be a bit of resource drag, especially on the healers.

Shroud is easy even with a semi-gimped group, now that the cuisinarts have been reverted.


If I'm in a group and the healers need potions and I have them, I donate them.
It's only common courtesy, IMO.

If you're concerned about failing the Hard Shroud, then I would strongly suggest you get together a core group of players that you know can do the job, and fill the remaining slots with the LFM.