a few questions

[CThruTheEgo]

Just a few questions about a max dps barb. Build posted below. And before anyone recommends it, I have checked out Shade's barb guide and builds.

1) As I understand it, as strength goes up crit multiplier is more valuable than crit range, meaning greataxe is the superior weapon choice for this build. Correct?

2) How important are the extend/extra rage enhancements? Can I take less? Do I need more? Obviously the goal is to be raged constantly, but how much of each of these are actually needed to accomplish this?

3) Not sure about the level 18 feat. Choices are stunning blow, imp sunder, or toughness. I don't plan to tank, so toughness shouldn't be needed. Thoughts, opinions?

4) Concerning skills: Balance is a str check to get knocked down in the first place, so this shouldn't be an issue too much, correct? Jump should be high enough just from str also. So I took haggle for cheaper guild pots and intim for gathering trash mobs. Is my thinking wrong on any of these?

Any other feedback is appreciated as well. Thanks in advance.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 03.12.01
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 20 True Neutral Half-Orc Male
(20 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 340
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 16
Reflex: 5
Will: 5

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             20                    29
Dexterity             8                     8
Constitution         18                    18
Intelligence          6                     6
Wisdom                8                     8
Charisma              6                     6

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 20)
Balance              -1                    -1
Bluff                -2                    -2
Concentration         4                     4
Diplomacy            -2                    -2
Disable Device       n/a                   n/a
Haggle                0                     9
Heal                 -1                    -1
Hide                 -1                    -1
Intimidate            2                    21
Jump                  5                    10
Listen               -1                    -1
Move Silently        -1                    -1
Open Lock            n/a                   n/a
Perform              n/a                   n/a
Repair               -2                    -2
Search               -2                    -2
Spot                 -1                    -1
Swim                  5                     9
Tumble               n/a                   n/a
Use Magic Device     n/a                   n/a

Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Barbarian)


Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 4 (Barbarian)


Level 5 (Barbarian)


Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave


Level 7 (Barbarian)


Level 8 (Barbarian)


Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons


Level 10 (Barbarian)


Level 11 (Barbarian)


Level 12 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Barbarian)


Level 14 (Barbarian)


Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Barbarian)


Level 17 (Barbarian)


Level 18 (Barbarian)


Level 19 (Barbarian)


Level 20 (Barbarian)
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost II
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost III
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker I
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker II
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Enhancement: Barbarian Might
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost I
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost II
Enhancement: Orcish Extra Action Boost III
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage I
Enhancement: Orcish Melee Damage II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack II
Enhancement: Orcish Power Attack III
Enhancement: Orcish Power Rage I
Enhancement: Orcish Power Rage II
Enhancement: Orcish Strength I
Enhancement: Orcish Strength II
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude I
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude II
Enhancement: Orcish Great Weapon Aptitude III

[CThruTheEgo]

I'm not looking for number crunching or anything extensive like that. Just a simple "yes," "no," or "this" will do fine. I mainly just want to check with those who already know if I'm thinking about this correctly. Thank you.

[smithj_2020]

True balance is a str check, I believe it's to regain after being knocked down, where as te higher the skill check is the increased chance to save from being knocked down, that's why balance is valuable, your no good knocked down.

I think you always need toughness no matter what but its up to te person truthfully.

As far as the crit thing, I believe there is nothing better then eSoS it's got a good crit range and multiplier or x3. Plus the bigger the crit range the more you crit therefore the more dps you do. Where as a bigger multiplier is more damage on that crit, but more crits is better, why many say a falchion is better ten GS or GA.

You can crit on eSoS from 18-20, 16-20 with IC and frenzy with x3 so it's the best

Also: I only have extend II and extra rage I and rage for 4.5 mins an have 8 rages with Frenzy beserk set.

[CThruTheEgo]

True balance is a str check, I believe it's to regain after being knocked down, where as te higher the skill check is the increased chance to save from being knocked down, that's why balance is valuable, your no good knocked down.

As I understand it it's a str/dex check (whichever is higher) to save from being knocked down in the first place, and then a balance skill check to get back up once you're knocked down. I was thinking with such a high str that I wouldn't get knocked over in the first place, and therefore wouldn't need a decent balance skill. But then I realized that nothing short of knockdown immunity prevents you from being knocked down by air elementals, so I'll invest in balance.

I think you always need toughness no matter what but its up to te person truthfully.

Generally, I would agree with you. But on a barb with the highest base HP, ridiculous con, and no plans to tank, I should still end up with around 600 hp with gear and no toughness. This is probably the only build I would consider not taking toughness on, and I'm still undecided.

As far as the crit thing, I believe there is nothing better then eSoS it's got a good crit range and multiplier or x3. Plus the bigger the crit range the more you crit therefore the more dps you do. Where as a bigger multiplier is more damage on that crit, but more crits is better, why many say a falchion is better ten GS or GA.

You can crit on eSoS from 18-20, 16-20 with IC and frenzy with x3 so it's the best

I'm a long way off from an eSoS, which is why I was mainly considering GA of falchion. And if I understand it correctly, a damage modifier of 60 or so favors the larger crit multiplier of greataxe over the larger crit range of falchion. This build will easily have a damage mod of 60+. I remember reading about that somewhere, just wanted to confirm that my memory was correct.

Also: I only have extend II and extra rage I and rage for 4.5 mins an have 8 rages with Frenzy beserk set.

Good to know, thank you.

I appreciate the response sir and +1 to you.

[WruntJunior]

1) Crit range and multiplier are equally valid considerations no matter what your damage mod is - in fact, falchion is better (due to critting six times on the 1-20 spread for x2) than a greataxe (which only crits two times on the 1-20 spread at x3), assuming improved crit (though it's the same without, with them both critting half as often).

2) As my barbarian is less-geared, I find the extend/extra rage enhancements useful...from what I've heard, their use declines with better gear.

3) Like #2, toughness is better with less gear....when you hit high enough HP without it, improved sunder would be my first choice.

4) Intim is useful on any melee...but personally, I went balance, with a few ranks in tumble just so I can actually tumble and a lot into spot so I can find sneaking enemies (not always useful, but with meh for skills anyways...). Some people probably get good use out of UMD, even if just by getting UMD to 20, but I'm not worried about that myself.

[smithj_2020]

Back to the balance thing, I ran a edragon last night and I'm sitting in a constant 66 str raging and I never get knocked down, so balance isn't needed really I guess.

[Dartwick]

Strength has no bearing on whether a bigger range or a bigger multiplier helps more.

[CThruTheEgo]

1) Crit range and multiplier are equally valid considerations no matter what your damage mod is - in fact, falchion is better (due to critting six times on the 1-20 spread for x2) than a greataxe (which only crits two times on the 1-20 spread at x3), assuming improved crit (though it's the same without, with them both critting half as often).

Strength has no bearing on whether a bigger range or a bigger multiplier helps more.

There was a dps calc thread a while back, which I can't find now, that used damage mod as the variable and found that around 60 (iirc) was the cutoff point between falchion and GA. Below a 60 damage mod, falchion was better, but above 60 GA was better. The damage mod is multiplied by the crit multiplier and a very high str on a high crit multiplier pulls ahead because of this. At least this is what my memory tells me, which isn't always accurate. I wish I could find that thread again...

Anyways, thanks to both of you for the feedback.

[WruntJunior]

There was a dps calc thread a while back, which I can't find now, that used damage mod as the variable and found that around 60 (iirc) was the cutoff point between falchion and GA. Below a 60 damage mod, falchion was better, but above 60 GA was better. The damage mod is multiplied by the crit multiplier and a very high str on a high crit multiplier pulls ahead because of this. At least this is what my memory tells me, which isn't always accurate. I wish I could find that thread again...

Anyways, thanks to both of you for the feedback.

You have it backwards....below a certain point, GA is better because it has higher base damage. Past that point, the crit profile of the falchion puts it ahead.

[Kinerd]

Just a few questions about a max dps barb. Build posted below. And before anyone recommends it, I have checked out Shade's barb guide and builds.

1) As I understand it, as strength goes up crit multiplier is more valuable than crit range, meaning greataxe is the superior weapon choice for this build. Correct?

No. The important value is critical profile, which is defined as critical range * (critical multiplier - 1). A falchion has 3 * (2 - 1) = 3. A greataxe has 1 * (3 - 1) = 2. In the situation you describe, where damage bonus far outweighs base weapon damage, the falchion will perform better. Improved Critical does not change the qualitative result: range -> 2 * range will only multiply the end result. Frenzied Berserker does not change the qualitative result: +3 on 19 and 20 will only add 6 to each end result.

One way to conceptualize it is every weapon gets 19 hits, then weapons get more damage (multiplier - 1) on all threat (range). You could also conceptualize it that every weapon gets (19 - threat) regular hits and (threat) * multiplier damage on critical hits. These are identical expressions algebraically.

3) Not sure about the level 18 feat. Choices are stunning blow, imp sunder, or toughness. I don't plan to tank, so toughness shouldn't be needed. Thoughts, opinions?

Improved Sunder is roughly as good as Stunning Blow, and is (effectively) newer. As populations are in general slow to embrace change, I would recommend Improved Sunder.

[Dartwick]

There was a dps calc thread a while back, which I can't find now, that used damage mod as the variable and found that around 60 (iirc) was the cutoff point between falchion and GA. Below a 60 damage mod, falchion was better, but above 60 GA was better. The damage mod is multiplied by the crit multiplier and a very high str on a high crit multiplier pulls ahead because of this. At least this is what my memory tells me, which isn't always accurate. I wish I could find that thread again...

Anyways, thanks to both of you for the feedback.

This is wrong in more than 1 way.
But for starters in all calculations you consider the crit profile as a unit(range x multiplier.)

At one time various forms of CC cause auto-crits making the multiplier the the only thing that mattered - that was changed long ago now.

[CThruTheEgo]

As I said, my memory is not always accurate. Thanks for the responses all.