Shorten the raid timer for VIPs

[Forgeborn]

/signed

I am premium, but I think this would make me more interested in vip.

I think down to 24 hours is a bit too short, but maybe down to 48 hours or so would be a very nice benefit to those that 'continually' support the game.

Let's say one person 'continually' supports the game for 3 years, that's around $300 dollars for turbine. That person get 18k TP over the span of 3 years, and access to every pack in the game, 10 char slots, and some other stuff.

Other person doesn't want to be tied down to a monthly billing, so instead pays up the $300 in one go, getting around 30k to 35k TP for it. To buy access to everything the VIP has, he needs to spend 25K TP, he has 10K TP left, from which he'll need to buy all races, packs, and classes, for the next 3 years.

Both paid the same cost at that point, but the VIP has 18K TP to spend freely, and the premium has 10k TP left from which he'll have to purchase newly released packs, races, and classes, so the premium paid the same cost for less benefit over that timespan.

You could do the same math for 6 years time, or even 10 years time, but at those lengths it's hard to estimate the cost of new packs, so the image would be skewed in favor of the premium, short periods of time would obviously be skewed in favor of the vip, due to the 'frontloaded' cost of a new premium player that unlocks everything a VIP has.

Now, you could of course bring up that the premium will buy all packs at the cheapest possible price, but that can take years before all packs are released at the magical 50% off (most is done at 20%, which I already assumed they'd do). The VIP on the other hand, could do around the same, wait till turbine introduces a prescription plan that is cheaper then the current ones, can take a long time too.

VIP still has the same 'perks' as before, so they're still getting what they signed up for at the start. Adding, or removing, things from VIP would annoy/aggravate one of the sides. Keeping it the same is the safest thing they can do. The only way I can see turbine adding a raid timer reduction to VIP's is to make it a new feature, give VIP's auto-access to it, and add it to the turbine store for like 10k or so TP (account wide, of course). That would give VIP's a bonus compared to premiums, or more specifically, require premiums to spend more money to get access to the same as VIP's.

sigh, I blame streaking for this entire debate though, most of the threads about VIP perks I've seen started to pop up around the time TR's got hard/elite opening and they put it in the store for TP, which was at the same time they introduced bravery bonuses.

[varusso]

I have been all 3 types of players: F2P, Prem, and VIP.

As an F2P player, I farmed the hell out of the game, on all servers, to get TP to unlock packs and other stuff. I decided I wanted a couple more toon slots and a longer disconnect timer, so I waited for a points pack I wanted to go on sale (this was when they offered points and adventure packs at deep discounts, up to 50%). Then I waited for the packs i wanted to go on sale. And I farmed -- alot. By the time horc/helf were added, I owned all the packs, a shared bank, vet stat, all other races and classes, even more toon slots, 32 pt builds, and i STILL had enough point to buy horc/helf -- though i didnt want them. All for $70 real cash, spend judiciously and patiently on sales, and some serious TP farming. I had also bought some fluff and a set of astral diamonds for our airship.

When the challenges came out, I decided I wanted to try them out before I bought them, so I switched to VIP on the 3-month plan. This let me try them out rather than invest in them right away, and bank some TP from VIP bonus. It also let me open straight to elite on all toons, making Tp farming from favor even easier

The idea that VIP have any kind of REAL advantage iver other accounts is just silly. I unlocked ALL of DDO for a fraction of what it would have cost a VIP. Fact is, those bonus TP a VIP gets are usually spent on fluff shopping, or saved to purchase content so they can drop down to premium and only pay for the stuff they want from then on. Of course "normal" premium players do the same thing It is much cheaper in the long run to go premium and farm TP than to pay for VIP. And keep in mind, most VIPs also make "micro purchases" in addition to their subscription, so their expenses in DDO are actually MORE THAN their monthly fees.

I once compared turbine's F2P model to a video store -- the store gets 2 kinds of customers: those who BUY movies outright and those who rent them. The store needs both types of customers in order to stay afloat. The rentals provide a steady stream of measurable annual income, and the purchases boost their sales. Both are important in different ways. Both need incentives to keep coming back.

VIP needs things that make it more attractive to the players. Why anyone would object to this is simply beyond me. If you are fine with what you have, nothing really changes for you. If you are discontent with what you have and are thinking about dropping VIP, it might be enough to keep you in it. If you arent a VIP, then its really not your place to try and dictate what the VIP players should get; it doesnt concern you. And you always have the option of buying in, if it ever DOES appeal to you, due to the perks. VIP should not get "exclusive" advantages (or rather such advantages should be considered very carefully), but they ARE entitled to nice shiny perks to keep them paying. Membership has its privileges.

[porq]

VIP needs things that make it more attractive to the players. Why anyone would object to this is simply beyond me. If you are fine with what you have, nothing really changes for you. If you are discontent with what you have and are thinking about dropping VIP, it might be enough to keep you in it. VIP should not get "exclusive" advantages (or rather such advantages should be considered very carefully), but they ARE entitled to nice shiny perks to keep them paying. Membership has its privileges.

I don't know about that. Being able to unlock elite on everything as a first lifer is an excellent perk in my eyes. Both for the ability to steak without relying on a static group/lucky pug with opener and for the less grindy favor accumulation. I would consider coughing up the dough just for that for that even though I am a premium(former vip) with all the content. Maybe from the perspective of a newer player, VIP needs more incentive?

[varusso]

I don't know about that. Being able to unlock elite on everything as a first lifer is an excellent perk in my eyes. Both for the ability to steak without relying on a static group/lucky pug with opener and for the less grindy favor accumulation. I would consider coughing up the dough just for that for that even though I am a premium(former vip) with all the content. Maybe from the perspective of a newer player, VIP needs more incentive?

Its actually the vet player that needs more incentive to go VIP. On a first life toon, the straight to elite is a nice perk, but a new player isnt likely to be able to handle it for BB. They simply dont have the gear or the game knowledge/resources to pull it off; the veteran player usually does. Also, keep in mind that each TR gets you a higher default unlock -- again, veteran players are the ones with multiple TRs and will have the elite unlock benefit unlock built into their toons, so its less incentive for them to get VIP for elite unlock.

And frankly, its ridiculously easy to get in a group with anyone who can unlock elite. Be it a VIP, a TR, or a player who has already run through on hard. For that matter, you can make a second F2P account and use it to unlock all F2_ quests for you (by running that toon through them). This works incredibly well when you TR or roll new toons -- just pair them up with your alt account on another computer (or dual log the same computer) and roll with it. I spent a few bucks on the alt account and bought a couple of packs that I wanted to keep flags on (IE bloody crypt and shadow crypt).

The elite unlock *IS* a nice perk, but it is by no means exclusive, and would never really tip the scales for anyone who has played for more than a few months.

[Forgeborn]

I have been all 3 types of players: F2P, Prem, and VIP.

As an F2P player, I farmed the hell out of the game, on all servers, to get TP to unlock packs and other stuff.

All for $70 real cash, spend judiciously and patiently on sales, and some serious TP farming.

It also let me open straight to elite on all toons, making Tp farming from favor even easier

The idea that VIP have any kind of REAL advantage iver other accounts is just silly. I unlocked ALL of DDO for a fraction of what it would have cost a VIP. Fact is, those bonus TP a VIP gets are usually spent on fluff shopping, or saved to purchase content so they can drop down to premium and only pay for the stuff they want from then on. Of course "normal" premium players do the same thing It is much cheaper in the long run to go premium and farm TP than to pay for VIP. And keep in mind, most VIPs also make "micro purchases" in addition to their subscription, so their expenses in DDO are actually MORE THAN their monthly fees.

VIP needs things that make it more attractive to the players. Why anyone would object to this is simply beyond me. If you are fine with what you have, nothing really changes for you. If you are discontent with what you have and are thinking about dropping VIP, it might be enough to keep you in it. If you arent a VIP, then its really not your place to try and dictate what the VIP players should get; it doesnt concern you. And you always have the option of buying in, if it ever DOES appeal to you, due to the perks. VIP should not get "exclusive" advantages (or rather such advantages should be considered very carefully), but they ARE entitled to nice shiny perks to keep them paying. Membership has its privileges.

I have been all 3, like you, and I still disagree on giving a massive reduction in raid timers to VIP's (and yes, cutting more then 50% of the downtime is 'massive') without giving free to play and premiums a chance to obtain that same advantage. Since it would pretty much give them twice as many shots at loot then a free to play, or premium, (they can run it every day, thus have twice as many chests pulls/chances to roll) , Which directly influences their characters strength in the long run. It shouldn't take twice as long for a premium/f2p to gear out their character then a VIP, and currently, gear and statwise, premiums and VIP are balanced, which should stay that way.

Next, your own example states that you farmed the hell out of TP to purchase all packs and the like, you were also waiting patiently for 50% sales and offers on packs/races/classes, which is why your numbers are on the low side of the scale. A VIP gets INSTANT access to most classes/all packs/most races, where a premium/f2p could be spending months farming out the TP for it. You also made it clear that VIP.

Your comment about 'buying into' VIP for a premium is absurd, a premium in a lot of cases spends a fair chunk of cash so he doesn't need to bother with monthly subscriptions and still have access to everything. Invalidating their previous spending if they want to stay competitive is something that would make a good deal of people just right out quit instead.

Giving it as an extra option, sure, make it a store unlock, either per character, or account wide, up to 10k points for it account wide due to it's strength, and give VIP free access to it as long as they keep their subscription.

My main issue: type of subscription for paying customers should not influence character strength, which includes the acquisition of gear. The same chances should be available to all players.

Now, giving them more 'fluff' options, I'm all for that, give them armor kits, give them shining aura's for all I care, as long as they have no mechanical impact on the character or the ability to acquire gear.

[varusso]

I have been all 3, like you, and I still disagree on giving a massive reduction in raid timers to VIP's (and yes, cutting more then 50% of the downtime is 'massive') without giving free to play and premiums a chance to obtain that same advantage. Since it would pretty much give them twice as many shots at loot then a free to play, or premium, (they can run it every day, thus have twice as many chests pulls/chances to roll) , Which directly influences their characters strength in the long run. It shouldn't take twice as long for a premium/f2p to gear out their character then a VIP, and currently, gear and statwise, premiums and VIP are balanced, which should stay that way.

Next, your own example states that you farmed the hell out of TP to purchase all packs and the like, you were also waiting patiently for 50% sales and offers on packs/races/classes, which is why your numbers are on the low side of the scale. A VIP gets INSTANT access to most classes/all packs/most races, where a premium/f2p could be spending months farming out the TP for it. You also made it clear that VIP.

Your comment about 'buying into' VIP for a premium is absurd, a premium in a lot of cases spends a fair chunk of cash so he doesn't need to bother with monthly subscriptions and still have access to everything. Invalidating their previous spending if they want to stay competitive is something that would make a good deal of people just right out quit instead.

Giving it as an extra option, sure, make it a store unlock, either per character, or account wide, up to 10k points for it account wide due to it's strength, and give VIP free access to it as long as they keep their subscription.

My main issue: type of subscription for paying customers should not influence character strength, which includes the acquisition of gear. The same chances should be available to all players.

Now, giving them more 'fluff' options, I'm all for that, give them armor kits, give them shining aura's for all I care, as long as they have no mechanical impact on the character or the ability to acquire gear.

I never said they should get a "massive reduction" to raid timers. The MOST I would support would be a one-day reduction. I also said that *IF* VIP were given this option as a perk, it should also be made available for purchase to other players. This could take the form one a on-use item that reduces all current raid timers by 24 hours, or better yet an upgrade (a relatively expensive one) that permanently reduces that account's raid timers by 24 hours. And in no case should they stack. The usable item should work like guest passes, so those with permanently reduced timers can use them on a friend to sync up timers. I would also support it as a favor unlock -- top tier of course -- per server. As i have stated, VIP perks should not be exclusive -- they should be attainable by non-VIPs, but require effort to get them, be it through in-game farming or paying out cash in the store.

My numbers are low because I farmed and I bought wisely/patiently. It would take longer now because turbine no longer offers discounts higher than 20%. But the end result is the same. I can spend less $$ to get the same thing, if I am willing to do without all the shinies for a while. Thats rather the entire point of premium, and it is the only real advantage VIP has. You can preview as much content as you can play in a month's time, then drop to premium and start farming/buying it. Or you can choose to keep paying each month and not worry about it -- but you have to pay EVERY month as long as you want to keep your goodies, or until you save enough to buy everything you want -- which again shunts you back to Premium.

Theres a REASON so many players complain about lack of perks on VIP and drop to premium -- and no they arent all just blowing smoke to try and get turbine to pony up -- i know several who HAVE dropped VIP. They become instant premium, and have all the bells and whistles they wanted to keep.

And no, adding fluff to VIP perks is not the way to go. Fluff is exactly that, and will quickly lose its appeal to the majority of smart consumers.

And sorry to break it to you, but the type of sub ALREADY influences character strength, etc. If you have access to more packs, you have access to more/better loot and faster leveling. A player who is F2P with no packs simply cannot compare to a P2P (be it premium or VIP) with access even just to Vale and greensteel. Gear that is considered "standard" at end game simply is not available to them. Lack of good leveling content will forever place them behind everyone else in the leveling curve, especially if they ever TR.

The beauty of the system is that a F2P player CAN still get pretty much everything, if they are willing to work really hard at it. The idea behind the F2P model is that such players will eventually get tired of grinding, but love the game itself, and be willing to upgrade their accounts to get more benefits. Obviously its working (I am proof of that if nothing else).

I have everything I really want in the game. There is no real reason for me to maintain VIP. By the time the X-Pack comes out, I will have enough TP stored up to buy it outright. Same thing is true of every addition to the game thus far -- if I want it, I can farm/buy it and still cost less than the VIP sub.

[dotHackSign]

/signed

VIPs need more reasons to keep there subs.

[Sgt_Hart]

Right now its a 2 day, 16 hour timer. AKA 64 hours.

Dropping those last 16 hours, won't make much difference to my mind. That said 64 -> 24 is a bit overkill 'eh?

[Forgeborn]

Somewhere along the thread came the mention of a 24 hour timer, which is a massive reduction compared to the 64 hours it is now. wasn't specifically aimed at you, sorry for making it sound like that.

I know it does, but those are instantly available to premiums or f2p if they grind out the TP or 'pony up' the cash, which is the what I am mostly intending to keep. which is: I agree with the 'not keeping it exclusive to VIP' part you said. (yes, we actually agree for the most part)

For the fluff, yes, it gets boring fast, but if you read my post I'd be all for it being an TP-unlock (as I gave as an example: 10k TP for an account wide unlock), and just giving VIP's instant/free access to it for as long as the sub lasts. it gives a quite tangible bonus to the current VIP program, without making it inaccessible to premiums. Fluff just doesn't need such a balancing factor, and depending on how it's shaped/formed it can be cute to have a different look on your armor every month or so, or multiple armors each with a decent look (cove plate /bleh)

It SHOULD actually be a choice between premium and VIP, that's GOOD, VIP have some minor perks over premiums, like the first life elite unlock, which can be handy for older players if they are running up alt #31, or favorfarming for whatever reason. The perception it is to minor, depends on the person, some people like it, and if I weren't premium already (all packs, all races, even drow/champion which are jokes to unlock with favor, challenges, fully expanded shared/platinum bank.) I'd be tempted to VIP, however, I hate monthly billing, so I prefer to pony up the $300 in one go instead and have the small nuisance of needing to get the 50 TP elite unlocks if I want to streak on lowbies and there isn't an opener.

[TimethiefXVI]

lsat time i checked it 2 days 18h which is like 66h timer

[Rizzia]

As i have stated, VIP perks should not be exclusive -- they should be attainable by non-VIPs, but require effort to get them, be it through in-game farming or paying out cash in the store.

I disagree, if anyone else can buy/unlock it, its not a perk.

I have everything I really want in the game. There is no real reason for me to maintain VIP. By the time the X-Pack comes out, I will have enough TP stored up to buy it outright. Same thing is true of every addition to the game thus far -- if I want it, I can farm/buy it and still cost less than the VIP sub.

And by your reasoning here, you still wouldnt stay VIP with a new incentive, as you'd just "buy/unlock" it. VIPs need an exclusive perk (no idea what tho). I honestly wish I could have afforded the offer that came with the xpack, I could have taken it, and be done with the subsciption.

As for the shorter raid timers..I think they should be reduced for everyone, just vips would make guild runs annoying to organise, and segregate people.

I would also love it if there was a seperate instance/npc for epics, so you can be on an epic timer and still run elite (oh and remove base items from epic raids, we run epics for shards, sick of getting base items (20 adqs= 1 shard, 11 base items), also this would enable higher rewards than the normal quest.

[varusso]

I disagree, if anyone else can buy/unlock it, its not a perk.



And by your reasoning here, you still wouldnt stay VIP with a new incentive, as you'd just "buy/unlock" it. VIPs need an exclusive perk (no idea what tho). I honestly wish I could have afforded the offer that came with the xpack, I could have taken it, and be done with the subsciption.

As for the shorter raid timers..I think they should be reduced for everyone, just vips would make guild runs annoying to organise, and segregate people.

I would also love it if there was a seperate instance/npc for epics, so you can be on an epic timer and still run elite (oh and remove base items from epic raids, we run epics for shards, sick of getting base items (20 adqs= 1 shard, 11 base items), also this would enable higher rewards than the normal quest.

The problem with making perks exclusive is that you swing the pendulum the other way and make the other paying customers (premium) angry. Players start accusing turbine of catering to VIPs, and the anti-P2W faction starts gathering pitchforks. And to an extent its valid, as you are preventing other paying customers from getting a benefit, just because they arent on a monthly sub -- even though that customer may actually spend more on the game, depending on their spending habits (constantly buying TRs, armor kits, extra toon slots, extra bank slots, etc.) The flavor of a VIP account is really about convenience -- you pay one monthly fee, and you get access to everything (except the races/classes that can be unlocked via favor -- which a VIP *should* get BTW). With that theme in mind, VIP perks should be about getting bundled convenience. Instead of having to pay for each item a la cart, you get it all in one package. If premium wants it, they have to buy it individually, and F2P has to farm ALOT to get it.

I will illustrate the point. Here is what VIP currently gets as part of the bundled package: (SOURCE)

Turbine Points 500/month Store Purchase Favor Reward Premium: Store Purchase Favor Reward (you can buy more)
Classes & Races Basic & Premium Free Favor Unlocked per Server Buyable for All Servers (Races/Classes that can be unlocked by favor must either be unlocked or purchased, even by VIP -- which is bogus) Premium: Basic Free Favor Unlocked per Server Buyable for All Servers (you can unlock or buy them all)
Geography All Included Free Premium: Stormreach & Vicinity (you get it as you buy packs)
Adventure Packs All Included Free Premium: Some Free Can Purchase Others (you can buy them all)
Base Character Slots 10 Premium: 4 (you can buy more)
Shared Bank SlotIncluded Free Premium: Can Purchase (both must buy additional past the first)
Login Queue Priority Premium: High (I can't recall the last time this was an issue, even when I was F2P)
Chat Unlimited Premium: Unlimited
Auctions Unlimited Premium: Unlimited
Mail Unlimited Premium: Unlimited
Gold Storage Unlimited Premium Unlimited:
Buyback History 40 Items Premium: 10 Items (you can't buy more, but I honestly haven't used it in over a year anyway)
Auto Log Off Time 60 minutes Premium: 20 minutes (You can't up your timer, but all you have to do is nudge your toon every 15 mins or so to stay connected)
Leveling Unrestricted Premium: Unrestricted
Customer Service Full Self-Service Online Premium: Full For 45 Days (following last purchase) Self-Service Online
Compendium Read/Create/Edit Premium: Read/Create/Edit (Ummm...yay?)
Official Forums Read/Post Premium: Read/Post
Beta Priority High Premium: Normal

VIP also used to get to create guilds for free -- either that was taken away due to a certain abuse, or it just isnt listed here. Either way, they can still be bought in the store. In addition, VIP gains 3 days of exclusive access to new premium content -- which means they get to suffer all the bugs and glitches and item losses before the servers are brought down. Yee Haw.

Absolutely everything in the list is mirrored in Premium, and the majority of it can be purchased/upgraded by non-VIPs. While offering exclusive perks would certainly add more appeal (depending on the perk), VIP is really intended as a "Premium - Plus" by all indications. In other words, its a convenience.

I dont think raid timers should be dropped across the board -- i think the timers are fine as-is, especially if you have multiple toons and especially if you run multiple raids. Unless you are a full-time hardcore player, it can be very difficulty to keep all of those toons on timer for all those raids. But if you only want to focus on a couple of raids with a couple of toons, the ability to reduce your timers would be very cool -- so long as it doesnt go overboard.

As for any problems syncing up raid timers with guildies -- the short-timered folks can always choose to wait for the regular-timered folks. Nothing would actually change for those guilds. Or the regular timer folks could opt to buy the upgrade, and everyone can start doing accellerated completions. Or you could just do what most people end up doing anyway - hold one or 2 toons for guild runs and pug the rest as soon as they come off timer.

[svinja]

I would prefer 20 character slots for VIPs.

[KillEveryone]

And yes, granting someone access to content earlier/quicker as a perk *IS* P2W. Being able to run a raid 2-3 times in the amount of time non-paying players get to run it is a SIGNIFICANT advantage in terms of grinding out loot/XP. P2W isnt just getting access to things others dont have; its also getting an advantage in time investment. Vet status is P2W, not because it grants you access to lvl 4, while others cant GET to lvl 4, but because it grants you access to lvl 4 faster than other players. Again, this doesnt make it a BAD thing; but it IS P2W.

Just buying the pack is P2W in your view because it is giving access to those that coughed up the dough leaving those that didn't pay for it at a disadvantage. Really, by your logic, so is purchase of a guest pass since it gave someone access to the pack but not another person.

Real pay-2-win is when you need a specific item that can only be found by purchase with real money to complete the quest and there is no other option at completing without purchase of said item. Korthos one where you purchase the grog and get a spirit cake is actual P2W because you cannot get the grog anywere else but the DDO store and it is necessary to purchase the grog to complete that quest.

Lowering raid timers isn't P2W because it doesn't involve a purchase of a specific item just to complete a particular quest. All raids can be completed without purchase of any particular quest item. You just need to own the pack or get a pass.

----------------------------

/signed if it is applied to old content at least. I can understand keeping new stuff on the current timer.

[JOTMON]

Let's say one person 'continually' supports the game for 3 years, that's around $300 dollars for turbine. That person get 18k TP over the span of 3 years, and access to every pack in the game, 10 char slots, and some other stuff.

The issue I see is that over time VIP is like the Renter where Premium is rent to own.

VIP can come and go as they please as long as they pay the membership fee's, at the end they have nothing to show for their investment.

There is no option to buy packs as a VIP so they cant buy packs as they go on sale in preparation to go premium at a undetermined future date.

If the VIP ever decides to stop being VIP they have nothing, they are essentially starting from scratch.
They have to buy all the packs they have been running for their entire VIP life.
They have to buy character slots, to get access to their alts
They have to buy shared bank to get access to any additional (already purchased) bank slots.
They have to buy Racial classess to be able to unlock already created alts.

Premium players own the packs and can upgrade to VIP before any big launches for a month, decide if they like it farm.. whatever then drop back down to Premium. Packs are allways on sale so there are purchase savings on a regular basis.

So at the end of your 3 year example if your VIP takes a break from the game for a few months and comes back as a Premium he has to buy access.. he has nothing to show for his 3 years of support, while the Premium who purchased all the packs still has everything just as he left it and can jump into the LFM raid on his WF Artificer, while the ex-VIP has to unlock his Favor toon and purchase race/class/pack.