What is this wizard's stigma?

[unbongwah]

Thats hilarious. If someone ever said that to me, they would spend the quest buffless and watch me FoD every mob they got near... Just for fun.....

It was particularly amusing when he told me I'd gimped myself by not taking Extend. I told him I played my bards when I wanted to be a buffbot and Charmed his targets, just to annoy him.

[Such755]

Here's how I see arcanes (This is MY opinion and MY only, this is how I think players will be most benefiting to the party, and getting the best out of their class):

Sorcere:
Your primary goal is to blast everything in your way without thinking too much. (Note: Know how to manage aggro.) You have a ton of spell points compared to a wizard, dirt cheap SLA and all the boosts you want to spell damage. If you're stacking some wizard past lives, you may as well have crowd control or insta kills ability.
Self healing: Mandatory if you're a Warforged, if you're a fleshy then UMD should be high enough at around level 16 to be able to self heal with Heal scrolls. It doesn't mean clerics should ignore you, it means that if there's a moment for yourself, don't wait for the cleric.


Wizard:
You focus mainly on Crowd control and Insta kills no matter if you're a pale master or arch mage. You have all the bonus feats you need (Compared to sorcerer) and much more spell slots to afford for this job. No one can be better at this than you. You also have higher int capacity than Charisma for sorcerer (+2 from capstone, +2 from lich form).
DPS (Evocation mostly): Your spell points pool is not big enough to allow you to do significent damage to TRASH mobs. An evocation based Pale master is a very bad choice, an evocation based arch mage is somewhat less of a bad choice thanks to the dirt cheap SLA. Evocation based AM is great for leveling, not good for end game, where insta kills just rule, and crowd control is often needed for the support of the rest of the party. Let the sorcerers and other DPS guys in the party do that job.
Against bosses you're capable of great DPS using DOT spells (Niac's biting cold for example).
Self healing:
All wizards should be fully self healing capable, for fleshies from level 12 and for WF from the very beginning.
If you are a fleshy, and you're not a pale master at level 12, you're doing a big mistake. You're giving up incredible self healing, and you cost more SP to the party's healer. (Note that you can be pale master at level 6, but many choose to wait for level 12 beacuse Zombie form sucks. Understandable).

Summery:
Sorc: Blast things. Fleshies self heal from level 16 with heal scrolls, WF self heal with reconstruct.
Wizard: Insta kill and crowd control. Fleshies self heal with undead form, if chosen to be an arch mage - big mistake. WF self heal with repair or undead form. Both work.

Note: I know many people want to play for their personal flavor, like a halfling arch mage. I don't mind that, and I respect that. Mechanic-wise it's a mistake, and often a waste. I will not reject a fleshy arch mage from my party, nor any wizard based on evocation or whatever. We're all here to have fun, each in his own way.

[Infant]

The fact that people say 'damage damage damage offense offense offense' saddens me. If I wanted to go all out on damage I'd have picked a sorcerer. Nobody complains when a sorcerer doesn't CC enough, but heaven forbid a wizard doesn't deal massive damage. It's kind of a double standard.

Not really a double standard. It's about the potential of your class. Every wizard can deal decent damage in critical fights. Along with providing CC. Refusing to nuke when appropriate is not playing to full potential.

It's a bit more difficult for sorcerers to provide CC. But still, any sorcerer with high enough charisma can carry a greater enchantment/conjuration focus item to help with a discoball/web in epics. Not doing so is not playing to full potential.


Infant

[HastyPudding]

Not really a double standard. It's about the potential of your class. Every wizard can deal decent damage in critical fights. Along with providing CC. Refusing to nuke when appropriate is not playing to full potential.

It's a bit more difficult for sorcerers to provide CC. But still, any sorcerer with high enough charisma can carry a greater enchantment/conjuration focus item to help with a discoball/web in epics. Not doing so is not playing to full potential.


Infant

I didn't say I didn't deal damage, but people seem irritated that there's no firewall at every fight with more than 2 mobs. It's a complete waste of SP where a simple web or even a well-placed hypnotism would do the job.

And potential is nice, but it doesn't mean that every sorcerer and every wizard has to have the same build. That's boring.

[2hannabal2]

As far as i can tell you really don't have anything wrong with your thinking and if you wanted to buff and cc that would be totally fine with me and my group. If you ran with us we would work our play styles together and have a good time.

You don't have to be a certain build or play style to be an asset to a party. Anyone who says you have to be this way and have this and do that is just simple minded and unimaginative.

[testing1234]

Experimenting with new builds (even if they function very well) seems to be frowned upon, and anything new is suspect and distrusted.

not to be disrespeting but seems to me that the longer someone plays a acane the more and more they use damage spells instead of cc. cc is mostly for the very very few quest were you do not have more then enough sp to make conservation and moot point and instead speed of killing is what differes a good run from a bad

[mobrien316]

I just TR'd my Archmage Enchanter into a Palemaster. However, before I TR'd him, it was easy to find people who wanted a crowd control specialist in lots of epic quests.

He was easier to get into epics than anyone else except my cleric.


Palemasters are common and many of them are very well played, but lots of people are looking for good crowd control too. Epic Devil Assault with a good CC wizard is many times easier than without.

[ferrite]

This is an interesting topic, and I can tell you I play a PM on an alt, and yes they are overpowered. Most definitely. It comes from the two culprit spells, Fod and Wail. Without these insta-death spells, the PM would be severely crippled and brought back into balance with remaining party members. They'd be forced to do other things, besides spamming those two spells like it was a religion. They'd be forced to wear equipment that might actually protect themselves, instead of wearing tissue paper that gives them 40+ necro DC.

Actually, it WAS severely crippled, at least in Pathfinder (a spin-off of 3.5, if you will) The creators of that game at least had the foresight and sense to know when somethings overpowered.. both spells no longer cause 'insta-death'; rather, the damage they cause MAY result in death, but from the spell damage itself.. clever wording there. Actually I consider Wail so bleh in that game that I never take it in my group, since a fort save results in 0 damage with no other effect. This horse has already been beaten to death anyway here.. refer to the 1k or so other posts that debate the issue..

But still, as a PM do I want these spells nerfed? Of course not since they make my game MUCH easier as a walking insta-death machine. But do I recognize they are completely OP and in dire need of a nerf to restore some balance to the game? Yes, I do. Once this balance is restored, you'll find your concerns no longer warranted; wizards of all types will be welcome once again. Bet on it.

[butcheredspirit]

Your toon sounds fine to me.
It's refreshing to not see the same cookie cutter stuff.

You play what you enjoy, and most of the game is easy enough to accommodate for that.

I have definitely noticed the stigma you mentioned, but it some ways it doesn't make sense to me.

People seem to rage over arcanes that can heal themselves, kill everything and anything they want etc etc.
You make a build focusing on other strengths...and that's wrong too?


Not matter what your build or playstyle, there are always going to be people who take issue with it and "know better", or who will cry for your build to be nerfed.

I think all you can do is play what you enjoy and find some friends to run with.

[morticianjohn]

well, the way I see it is that those party leaders wanted you to run the quest for them so
they could pike. honestly though, I don't really see the advantage of being a PM in Vol (desecrated temple of,
necro 4?) or wiz king if you are anywhere near level. with the possible exception of the gnolls in wiz king, all
you need is wall of fire and disintegrate. for vol, another persistent aoe (like acid rain/cloud/whatever) works well.

PM is a lot better in the desecrated temple of vol specifically.

Based on the information in the OP it sounds like you haven't done what is needed to be self sufficient. As others have mentioned you can do ~ok with cure pots, helpful clerics, or hirelings but there are problems with each of these methods of healing.

In general things will be fine but a decent arcane build can do everything you do in addition to self healing and killing stuff. The simple fact is that in your playstyle you are not playing optimally why would you expect the same treatment as the players who are trying to get the most out of their class.

[SirValentine]

I'm talking about this apparent social stigma against three specific groups of wizards, in order of severity:

1. Non-Warforged wizards (regardless of UMD ability to heal self and party)
2. Archmagi (apparently, the pale master is so powerful, people can't wrap their tiny minds around any other way)

I always just assume a Wiz is either WF or PM. I mean, why would you deliberately gimp yourself by giving up easy self-healing?

3. Non-evocation/necromancy based wizards

Evo Wiz? Haven't seen much of that. I'd probably be more biased against Evo Wiz than against non-Evo Wiz.

Non-Necro, though, seen a few. It's so pre-U9. Always funny to see them throw a perfect Mass Hold on a nice group of trash mobs, then stand around doing nothing while my divine insta-kills them. I mean, if you'd used a Wail instead of your Mass Hold plus my Implosion, we'd both use less SP, and be done with them 6 or so seconds sooner, too.

Not saying don't use Enchantment, as there are times when it's the best tool. But deliberatly avoiding Necro when IT is the best tool is silly, too.

[djsonar919]

I pretty much do everything you guys said.

- I am self sufficient; I use scrolls, wands, and pots (even wands to remove curse/poison/etc from party members). I keep myself stone-skinned and displaced. Does your Wiz at level 20 stand almost 600hp before temp hp procs and simply shrug off the damage from a gang of epic mobs, and tank raid bosses? If so, I'd say you're self suffient.

- I use elemental spells in abundance, and ice storm/firewall. Oftentimes, I find that a firewall or ice storm is completely unnecessary, as the melees will charge through mobs easily with haste/rage, making persistent aoe spells a waste of sp unless it's in large mobs or important fights. Instead of using elemental spells in abundance, can you simply wipe a room of mobs out with one button press, before the melees get in there? If so, you just saved yourself SP, the melees from getting damaged and the cleric from wasting spell points.

- I spam webs, hold, and mass hold, and use dancing sphere and halt undead when needed. I'll charm a mob or two when it's useful, but not too often. I throw around more CC than anything else. I also use phantasmal killer SLA, which is only 10 SP and fits well even if I'm ever low on SP. It's a better DC than my FoD and less than half the cost. Killing all things with one spell is CC! If there are no mobs, then there is no damage that can be done to the party. And nothing to CC. .

- I buff party members with whatever they wish, even stoneskin and invisibility when they want it. Everyone is constantly blured and displaced, and GH is given to everyone, regardless of how they fight. Taking the illusion SLA's was a planned decision; on other characters, I see them loath to use displacement, but with it being only 6 SP for an extended one, I can toss it around with no effort and still use sp for nuking/cc. It's good to make everyone else feel safe with their "security blanket" spells. But my PM can do the exact same buffs without needing to specialize in that school, and they're just as powerful as someone who does specialize in the school.

There's no major difference in my build from the common wizard, and yet people freak out about it. It's silly. There is a huge difference between your wizard and mine. Mine is also a common PM build. If I see a human, illusion specced AM tanking Suulo in just a normal TOD then I will say that it's a viable build. Until that time, I will just continue to view it as a wizard who will get completely destroyed at the first sign of danger.

once I reach level 20, I'll respec to make sure my enchantment DC's are as high as possible for epics.

My comments are in red.

[SoloPhalanx]

My comments are in red.

The fact is, if you are not a PM or WF, there will come a time when you can't heal yourself as the situation requires. Scrolls can't be quickened.

If you never find yourself in such a situation, then it is because you hold back on the possibilities of playing an arcane. By doing so, you are also being a drain.

(I'm not saying you can't play anything else than WF or PM, simply that you WILL need a divine backing you up in many occasions, and that takes a little of getting used to, as usually, playing a divine, people are just used to leave arcanes be)

I wonder why everyone ignored what I said.

[GlorifyQuC]

What kind of wizard are you?
You don't use necromancy, which is straight up overpowered for any type of arcane.
You went archmage, which is fine, but then decided against imbalanced self-healing with literally no drawback.

The stigma is simple. Why play with you when there are players who can do what you do 3-4x better?

[Gorbadoc]

What kind of wizard are you?
You don't use necromancy, which is straight up overpowered for any type of arcane.
You went archmage, which is fine, but then decided against imbalanced self-healing with literally no drawback.

The stigma is simple. Why play with you when there are players who can do what you do 3-4x better?

For his charming personality, of course.

That's why I play the game, anyway. Sure, it's fun to win and collect fancypants equipment, but, personally, I'm in it more for the challenge and for the camaraderie. If the OP is fun to talk to while pounding on monsters, I would enjoy playing with him. If he's a jerk, I wouldn't.

[GlorifyQuC]

Generally I see few people using the game as a social outlet.

[maddmatt70]

Warforged and palemasters have self healing which is the win for the class. Really for the AMs that are non warforged and for the Wild mages coming this summer there should be something which compensates for their lack of self healing.. It is unclear what exactly this buff should be, but I would buff AM slightly and buff non warforge races. The elf is interesting with its +6 to spell penetration which could come in handy this summer, but really more stuff like that. You could make it so the wild-mage has some sort of healing capability.

The second question you have is about schools. From a powergaming perspective it pays to have one character that has a very high insta-kill dc and one character that does some excellent aoe dps. This is from a farming and short man perspective. In the challenges for instance aoe dps is the king whereas in epics its instakill and raids overall tend to be more melee oriented.

The problem with wizards is that they are inferior in terms of aoe dps compared to a sorcerer because they do not have the savant pres and do not have the spell points sorcerers do. Wizards are more comparable to FVS and even clerics and artificers which both do decent aoe dps. Since wizards are inferior in terms of aoe dps and one of the best if not the best insta-killers classes due to their high instakill dcs it seems to point wizards toward necromancy focused. Now a wizard can also be effective in terms of cc whether enchantment or conjuration (AM web conjurers can be solid), but since a wizard with its many feats can easily specialize in two or more schools they might as well specialize in necromancy.

Area of Effect Spells Best classes:
1. Sorc
2. FVS
3. Wiz/Cleric/Artificer

Instakill best classes:
1. Wiz
2. FVS
3. Cleric
4. Sorc

Recommendation: Make a WF Sorc and Palemaster Wiz or make an FVS or Cleric for one of those two roles....

[Cartheron]

1. I was the first to join a Vol farming party and was specifically kicked because I wasn't a pale master.
2. I joined a Wiz-King farming party and the party leader basically patronized every decision I made regardless of how well I preformed.

Regardless of my personal opinion about nonWF, nonPM wizards, I think that problem here was FARMING parties.

How do you farm wiz king? You get 6 arcanes/divines, send 2 into each tower, they zerg, gather mobs up to high levels of DA, nuke the **** out of them and zerg even more, slaughter boss and meet downstairs. NonPM, nonWF wiz not specced for damage can be seen as liability here (btw, halt undead in wizking works even from scrolls. You dont heve to be specced for it).

How do you farm Vol? Basicaly the same, split group, send individual members into separate rooms, aoe everything around, whoever get to last fight first starts it, rince and repeat. NonPM, nonWF, non damage specced wiz can be see as liability here too.

There just no place for support specced caster in farming groups for those quests. You either go and kill stuff or essentialy pike. I can solo Vol elite at level on my wizard in less than 10 minutes, including optional. Good farming party can reach what? 4 minutes? 5 minutes tops. You dont need support. You need damage and survival.

TL DR

I think you chosen bad type of party for your build. Try to choose LFM that states first time here, going slowly, no spoilers. They will love you

[DarkForte]

Farming is all about efficiency, i.e. completing the dungeon as fast as possible for the most amount of xp. Most of the time, these quests are done by self-healing (or at least very survivable), fast-killing players so one can split up the party in many and complete as fast as possible. You are neither survivable nor a nuker. You displace people, while the other PM/WF wizard is soloing a tower.

TLDR: Your build isn't bad per se. It's just not efficient in a group with self-sufficient zergers.

[Dematto]

I don't know man. What CAN you do? Just keep on truckin' I guess. Maybe it's the server. Maybe it's just a spot of bad luck, yeah? Get through this life and move on to greener pastures, I say.

Are you self-sufficient? I mean, really? What's your ship-buffed success rate on Heal Scrolls? What about Raise Dead? You mentioned Potions and Wands too. Those are great, and absolutely use them. But I imagine that unless they're stacks of end-game potions, most groups dedicated to zerging and farming are not going to realistically consider those worth mentioning. My Paladin has 250 SP and carries like 5 wands of Cure Moderate, and I'll upgrade those when my guild opens the Wand Vendor. But I'm not going to mention them to a group running wiz-king, DQ, Von, or Tempest because 400 charges of 13 healing isn't useful for keeping myself up when people start dying. That's why I have a bunch of Lay on Hands.

What other things do you bring to the group? 75+% Heal Scroll success and a stack of 100 is probably worth mentioning. If you have more than 1 piece of greensteel, that might be worth mentioning, when you're trying to buy your way into a group.

Permanent Displacement is good if the group is going to be together the entire time AND if it doesn't interfere with what that party perceives to be your role. Which, in WK I imagine amounts to Hold Undead and Emp/Max Wall of Fire. I can see Perma-Displacer being less desirable in Wizking, where they're going to want you to solo at least 1 tower. If you know the dungeon, and you know the party composition, don't bother saying "Ask me for buffs." just throw 'em.
Just stick with the group and try not to raise any eyebrows. Be less vocal. That should help you slip in under the radar. Don't draw attention to the fact that you're different. That's "Passing" my friend, and it's what we deviants have to do to get by. Because that's what we are.

That's why I say "Finish this life and move on to greener pastures" Get to that Necro Life so you can enjoy it before the game changes. Because, whether you like it or not, whether you agree with it or not: Wail is immediately gratifying. It has a visible, easily discernible outcome. Monsters gone. No damage. Displacement has it's place, you're right. But that place requires supposition and extrapolation as to "Well...just how much damage CAN a party of 12 takes in the 3 minutes in this dungeon on Elite or Epic? Ok, now compare that to the cost of an empowered, quickened mass heal...carry the 3..."