What is this wizard's stigma?

[HastyPudding]

It could be just the Argo server, but there seems to be a lot of elitism, taboo, and stigma surrounding this class. Sorcerers are the same, but it seems to be on a much, much smaller scale and generally more excusable because sorcerers are there for usually one purpose, and that is to deal damage.

I'm talking about this apparent social stigma against three specific groups of wizards, in order of severity:

1. Non-Warforged wizards (regardless of UMD ability to heal self and party)
2. Archmagi (apparently, the pale master is so powerful, people can't wrap their tiny minds around any other way)
3. Non-evocation/necromancy based wizards

I fit into all three, and I've met more than enough people since TR'ing my cleric into a wizard to realize that people don't like anything new, including experimental builds, and that if you're not a 'self-repairing' pale master focused on necromancy and evocation/conjuration you apparently suck hard and are usually ignored. I've met two people in the past day that fit into this description:

1. I was the first to join a Vol farming party and was specifically kicked because I wasn't a pale master.
2. I joined a Wiz-King farming party and the party leader basically patronized every decision I made regardless of how well I preformed.

My build is different, yes, but from, what I've seen, it works quite well, although it falls into a support role. I'm an illusion/enchantment focused human archmage (I don't own warforged, and I don't intend to, it's just not in my style or interest and I'll save pale master for another life). Regardless of what people say, I've heard no complaints to the fact that everybody is permanently displaced and blur'ed and I try very, very hard to keep everybody buffed with whatever they desire (even saying 'hey, you want a buff? ask for it, it's yours'). My enchantment DC's work quite well around level 14, although the class is enhancement heavy and I haven't gotten my strong spell penetration yet so certain mobs are difficult to CC, but that's expected against drow/rakshasa/duergar. I don't have much in the way of damage, but I throw down an ice storm or firewall when it's needed, and arcane bolt/frost lance is strong enough to have a small sp cost spell to spam, but I focus on making sure everybody is protected and enemies can't harm then. It's more about damage prevention than inflicting damage.

For one of the most diverse and adaptable classes, people only seem to want one a very specific build and if you're not that build, you're apparently a bad player. Experimenting with new builds (even if they function very well) seems to be frowned upon, and anything new is suspect and distrusted.

[Impaqt]

It could be just the Argo server, but there seems to be a lot of elitism, taboo, and stigma surrounding this class. Sorcerers are the same, but it seems to be on a much, much smaller scale and generally more excusable because sorcerers are there for usually one purpose, and that is to deal damage.

I'm talking about this apparent social stigma against three specific groups of wizards, in order of severity:

1. Non-Warforged wizards (regardless of UMD ability to heal self and party)
2. Archmagi (apparently, the pale master is so powerful, people can't wrap their tiny minds around any other way)
3. Non-evocation/necromancy based wizards

I fit into all three, and I've met more than enough people since TR'ing my cleric into a wizard to realize that people don't like anything new, including experimental builds, and that if you're not a 'self-repairing' pale master focused on necromancy and evocation/conjuration you apparently suck hard and are usually ignored. I've met two people in the past day that fit into this description:

1. I was the first to join a Vol farming party and was specifically kicked because I wasn't a pale master.
2. I joined a Wiz-King farming party and the party leader basically patronized every decision I made regardless of how well I preformed.

My build is different, yes, but from, what I've seen, it works quite well, although it falls into a support role. I'm an illusion/enchantment focused human archmage (I don't own warforged, and I don't intend to, it's just not in my style or interest and I'll save pale master for another life). Regardless of what people say, I've heard no complaints to the fact that everybody is permanently displaced and blur'ed and I try very, very hard to keep everybody buffed with whatever they desire (even saying 'hey, you want a buff? ask for it, it's yours'). My enchantment DC's work quite well around level 14, although the class is enhancement heavy and I haven't gotten my strong spell penetration yet so certain mobs are difficult to CC, but that's expected against drow/rakshasa/duergar. I don't have much in the way of damage, but I throw down an ice storm or firewall when it's needed, and arcane bolt/frost lance is strong enough to have a small sp cost spell to spam, but I focus on making sure everybody is protected and enemies can't harm then. It's more about damage prevention than inflicting damage.

For one of the most diverse and adaptable classes, people only seem to want one a very specific build and if you're not that build, you're apparently a bad player. Experimenting with new builds (even if they function very well) seems to be frowned upon, and anything new is suspect and distrusted.

Buffs arent all that important in the great scheme of DDO.... At least not until end game raiding. Ship buffs pretty much cover all the essentials. Displacement certainly helps, but groups have learned to live without for the most part.

DDO is about Offense for the most part. Not defense.

Not saying I like it that way. I've just learned to adapt and live with it.

[Cyr]

A wizard with self healing and good dps can still throw buffs.

Build resources are not really stretched tight by the ability to buff people.

It is quite simple to throw enhancement points into the appropriate elemental lines, grab some elemental spell damage boosting clickies, and devastate content of that level.

[xSeverinax]

Without seeing your build or level it is pretty difficult to say, but most groups will want self sufficient members that contribute to getting the quest done. A suppot role is really not a role for a wiz. A fully necro specced pale master can give out the same buffs as any other wiz. The only really good illusion spell that targets a mob and can be resisted is phantasmal killer (if your DC's are up to scratch), hypnotic pattern is ok but makes it really difficult to see what is going on for some people depending on their computer and game settings. The few other spells are buffs, and they don't require any special skillset to use.

Enchantment on the other hand is a brilliant school to focus in, especially for end game epic and elite runs. Assuming that you have your spell pen and spell DC high enough - 42 DC and above 29 spell pen. At lower level runs it is far more efficient to kill things with a polar ray, or Niac's or some other nuking spell. If you have the DC and want to play a CC caster then spells like Web, Dancing ball, Charm, Hold and Dominate will be your bread and butter spells, backed up with mind fog, waves of exhaustion / fatigue, hypnotism, enervation. Fog type spells are really useful - acid cloud minor party buffs and damages mobs at the same time, cloud kill is another one. Wail of the banshee and finger of death rule as aoe and single target killing spells though and will make you loved by all if you are good with them. My Wiz is now at level 5 of his third life, on life 2 I was running epics and taking down mobs with both. Sometimes I would throw the melees a bone and cast mass hold so they felt like they were helping me ;-P

[Bogenbroom]

I too have certainly seen some questioning of my builds. I run a lot of different wizzies and very few of them are what one would generally consider "optimized." Because, you know, I have already built that guy, why do it again?

The thing is, since the spell pass, more folks are playing wizzies, including that population that loves to tell everyone how to play their guy. The only time you should ever listen is when you find yourself being a drain on the party. If you are contributing then they can go pound sand.

[pHo3nix]

It's not clear in the OP if you can self-heal well or not, but in my opinion a non self-sufficient caster is a waste of a party slot.
You are not forced to go wf or PM to be self-sufficient: fleshie AMs and fleshie sorcs require a little more work but they can self-heal themselves pretty well too.

Wizards wasting half of their sp buffing others should know that running ahead grabbing aggro and killing everything with a couple of spells is a lot more fast and sp efficient And you do not need any particular specialization to cast haste and rage

[DeafeningWhisper]

It's the risk you take when avoiding builds that have proven their worth and going for a flavor build instead, I have a Bardcher myself that gets declined a lot by people who have no diea what a good one can do.

[bigolbear]

honestly it sounds to me like your hanging out with idiots, for goodness sake your playing an enchantmnet specced archmange human! thats hardly non party freindly.

A wizard can always heal them selves, regardless of prestige or race. Wizies get sufficient time to swig pots between casting, unlike meles and as a human you have access to heal amp. If your not doing this then that is your fault, if you want to play a wizard that 'works with a cleric for heals' then id recomend static group play as pugers will expect casters to be self sufficient, and ALL arcanes can be.

stoneskin is loosly a form of 'healing', so is false life, in the sense they both put more damage between you and the enemy before you die. same could be said of prots/resists circumstantialy.

Yes any wizard can cast bufs, but most wizards are not willing to keep the group perma displaced which is a massive saving on incoming damage. the ops wiz can do this cheeply.

honestly op, its more likely a play style thing than build, and thats only gona come with time and experience.

ill try and pass on some tips: (specific to you prefered schools)

HOW to make freinds as a wizard.

(illusion)
1. invis is your freind. use it to mitigate incoming damage, you get to cast it cheap.
2. displace the barb/ftr, invis the heal bot cleric, displace the nuker cleric. this makes you freinds.
3. use pk on enemy rogues and casters - spam that spell.
4. cast blur on every one.
5. many bosses have true seeing, rendering your displace/blur meaningless. know these bosses, show off your knowledge by not casting blur, and when questioned explain, it will make you 'the wizard' look knowledeable and put the grunts in their place.
6. roguey grunts love glitter dust.


(enchantment)
1. when pugging reserve charm spells for emergencies, the grunts dont like pink hats they cant hit, even if it is incredibly useful, i find it helps to think of the party grunts as effective 'pre charmed mobs' that dont like competition.
2. use hold spells and dance spells and stun spells, the grunts like them.
3. learn to set traps, ottos dancing sphere + mind fog + glitter dust would be an excelent combo for you. get the grunts to drag stuff in, if they wont then turn on quicken and lay your trap while they are fighting.


(general)
1. learn to AOE debuff then cast, for you id recomend, hypnotise + crushing despair, then folow with your hold spells. you may find only hypno is needed as you get beter DC's.
2. learn what saves mobs have - pay attention to this, eg for you a rogue enemy is likey to have both poor fort and will thus is a great target for PK. enemy meles are likey to have poor will and can be held easily, enemy casters are liekly to have poor fort and reflex.
3. cary a solution to every situation, your a wizard and it is expected, you dont have to specialise in a feild of magic to be able to use it. just because you cary fire wall in case of undead does not mean you need to cast it in every dungeon.


(advanced tactics)

in situations where your enchantments wont work - because the enemy are imune you can often be very benefitial by taking agro of 'adds' sounds crazy i know but it works, drop a persistant aoe, all it has to do is get their attention and even gliter dust or ottos sphere will do this often, then invis/displace your self and move. let the grunts pick them off one at a time, this works very will in amrath BUT you have to know how to stay mobile and avoid damage.

[redspecter23]

It depends on the content I'm running. If I'm doing anything from 1-20 I'll typically just take whoever into my group. Of course, self healing is expected from anyone as in leveling situations, if I'm not actually on a divine, I won't be waiting for one to join. If any given player can't keep themselves up, I'll gladly take their stone around for a ride in my backpack and excuse myself from the group on the next run if their death totals were really high.

For endgame raids? If I have the choice between a WF wiz/PM wiz versus a fleshy non PM wizard, I'll choose the WF or PM every time because I know they are more survivable. If I don't have a choice, I'll give the fleshy a shot and see how they do, but I've been disappointed more often than not with that decision. 300 hp archmage fleshy wizards just plain have a hard time in LoB if they aren't played extremely well.

[SoloPhalanx]

The fact is, if you are not a PM or WF, there will come a time when you can't heal yourself as the situation requires. Scrolls can't be quickened.

If you never find yourself in such a situation, then it is because you hold back on the possibilities of playing an arcane. By doing so, you are also being a drain.

(I'm not saying you can't play anything else than WF or PM, simply that you WILL need a divine backing you up in many occasions, and that takes a little of getting used to, as usually, playing a divine, people are just used to leave arcanes be)

[herzkos]

well, the way I see it is that those party leaders wanted you to run the quest for them so
they could pike. honestly though, I don't really see the advantage of being a PM in Vol (desecrated temple of,
necro 4?) or wiz king if you are anywhere near level. with the possible exception of the gnolls in wiz king, all
you need is wall of fire and disintegrate. for vol, another persistent aoe (like acid rain/cloud/whatever) works well.

[Cardoor]

... Regardless of what people say, I've heard no complaints to the fact that everybody is permanently displaced and blur'ed and I try very, very hard to keep everybody buffed with whatever they desire (even saying 'hey, you want a buff? ask for it, it's yours'). My enchantment DC's work quite well around level 14, although the class is enhancement heavy and I haven't gotten my strong spell penetration yet so certain mobs are difficult to CC, but that's expected against drow/rakshasa/duergar. ...

There are many players who like to play and quest with unique builds and don't mind the challenge (I don't play much on Argo though sorry). Have you tried playing a bard yet? You might really enjoy it.

[HastyPudding]

I pretty much do everything you guys said.

- I am self sufficient; I use scrolls, wands, and pots (even wands to remove curse/poison/etc from party members). I keep myself stone-skinned and displaced.

- I use elemental spells in abundance, and ice storm/firewall. Oftentimes, I find that a firewall or ice storm is completely unnecessary, as the melees will charge through mobs easily with haste/rage, making persistent aoe spells a waste of sp unless it's in large mobs or important fights.

- I spam webs, hold, and mass hold, and use dancing sphere and halt undead when needed. I'll charm a mob or two when it's useful, but not too often. I throw around more CC than anything else. I also use phantasmal killer SLA, which is only 10 SP and fits well even if I'm ever low on SP. It's a better DC than my FoD and less than half the cost.

- I buff party members with whatever they wish, even stoneskin and invisibility when they want it. Everyone is constantly blured and displaced, and GH is given to everyone, regardless of how they fight. Taking the illusion SLA's was a planned decision; on other characters, I see them loath to use displacement, but with it being only 6 SP for an extended one, I can toss it around with no effort and still use sp for nuking/cc.

There's no major difference in my build from the common wizard, and yet people freak out about it. It's silly.

once I reach level 20, I'll respec to make sure my enchantment DC's are as high as possible for epics.

[unbongwah]

Buffs arent all that important in the great scheme of DDO.... At least not until end game raiding. Ship buffs pretty much cover all the essentials. Displacement certainly helps, but groups have learned to live without for the most part.

Ironically, I've had more than one PUGger tell my WF wiz / rogue that it's there to keep him buffed with Haste/Displace/Rage. So, YMMV.

[blametroi]

1. when pugging reserve charm spells for emergencies, the grunts dont like pink hats they cant hit, even if it is incredibly useful, i find it helps to think of the party grunts as effective 'pre charmed mobs' that dont like competition.

In a thread full of good lines and advice, this stood out to me

As a rogue, I have similar frustrations as the op. I run in semi static groups on my main mostly because of those "party grunts"

[HastyPudding]

Ironically, I've had more than one PUGger tell my WF wiz / rogue that it's there to keep him buffed with Haste/Displace/Rage. So, YMMV.

While I disagree with the statement that wizards are nothing more than buff wh*res, I do tend to enjoy the role, keeping my party safe from harm, making the cleric's job easier, and listening to the melee boast about their kill count regardless of it's relevancy. Wizards have more buffs than any other class (sorcerers have the same ones, but have a limited selection and can't change them without a blood potion or going to their trainer every 3 days), so why not make use of them?

The fact that people say 'damage damage damage offense offense offense' saddens me. If I wanted to go all out on damage I'd have picked a sorcerer. Nobody complains when a sorcerer doesn't CC enough, but heaven forbid a wizard doesn't deal massive damage. It's kind of a double standard.

[blametroi]

well, the way I see it is that those party leaders wanted you to run the quest for them so
they could pike. honestly though, I don't really see the advantage of being a PM in Vol (desecrated temple of,
necro 4?) or wiz king if you are anywhere near level. with the possible exception of the gnolls in wiz king, all
you need is wall of fire and disintegrate. for vol, another persistent aoe (like acid rain/cloud/whatever) works well.

Best wizard I've seen in Wizard King is a Pm Enchanter. Halt undead, save most sp for bosses, let the party beat the skellies. He uses FW very rarely. Makes ewizking doable.

[Impaqt]

Ironically, I've had more than one PUGger tell my WF wiz / rogue that it's there to keep him buffed with Haste/Displace/Rage. So, YMMV.

Thats hilarious. If someone ever said that to me, they would spend the quest buffless and watch me FoD every mob they got near... Just for fun.....

[cheekysmile]

I'm always dubious with PMs as half the time they seem to be played by someone who isn't so great. Guess it's a flavour of the year thing.

I'd take a fully decked out enchantment wizzy anyday for epics. They tend to be the ones who can do anything.

I appreciate it's not so easy to the get the high DCs necessary though so just do what you can to contribute. If buffs are all you have to offer then hey, i never complained about receiving an extended displace.

[HastyPudding]

I'm always dubious with PMs as half the time they seem to be played by someone who isn't so great. Guess it's a flavour of the year thing.

I'd take a fully decked out enchantment wizzy anyday for epics. They tend to be the ones who can do anything.

I appreciate it's not so easy to the get the high DCs necessary though so just do what you can to contribute. If buffs are all you have to offer then hey, i never complained about receiving an extended displace.

That's what I've been saying. half the PM's I've seen should just go sorcerer, for all they do. They spend SP to buff themselves and haste/rage the party. After that, they spend 90% of their SP on FoD and WoTB, then do the rest of the quest with 12 sp spamming their necrotics and not contributing much.

Whatever happened to 'wizards applying pressure where and when it's needed'? At the very least, you should blur and GH your party.